Suggestions for reducing size of current PC

[beyondinfinity]

Hello,

I really need to get rid of my current case (Antec P160) its just too big to fit anywhere in my room and I don't even use all the space inside of it. Inside of it is the Asus P8Z77-V motherboard and Intel i5 2500K CPU, one of those huge Noctua cpu cooler, and two hard drives (2.5") full size PSU. I don't currently have a full size graphics card, just an old fanless ati radeon, but I want to get a nvidia geforce 1060 for experimenting with GPU computing (like machine learning) I really want something like the Fractal Design Node 202, but I don't think this will fit the graphics card i want.

I was considering several options

1) Get a micro atx version of my motherboard - I found a micro-atx version of my mother board on ebay (asus p8z77-m) for about the same price I would pay for a new motherboard today. I could buy that and put everything in a smaller micro atx case. I might have to get a CPU cooler that's smaller but this option would allow me to keep the CPU and memory, and probably not have to reinstall all my OS and software.

2) Get a mini itx version of my motherboard - The mini itx versions of the P8z77 is absurdly expensive on ebay (twice as much as the micro ATX version) so I'm not considering this anymore.

3) Just upgrade everything to a small form factor build and sell my current pc (minus the hard drives) to someone.

What do you guys think? I really don't want to spend so much money, but if I did upgrade the entire thing, what CPU today would be the equivalent speed of my current cpu or better at the cheapest price point? Since my current system is fast enough for my needs and is still going strong after all these years.

EDIT:
Please see images of space in this post further down in the thread
https://www.overclockers.com/forums...f-current-PC?p=8105392&viewfull=1#post8105392

 

[Jasonaaronfox]

Ironic. My rig is about what you are describing. Lian li q08 mini itx with full size psi, p8z77-i delux with core i5 2500k & 4.4ghz, 16gb ddr3 2400 and an evga gtx 10603gb. Cooled with an AIO setup and san ace fans. Quiet and chilly.

The p8z77-I was always expensive. I think it was over 200 new. I’m not sure what you should do. I love my mini itx buzzing along on my desk, but micro atx isn’t much larger.

 

[Zerileous]

You could look at a 2200G or 2400G, they would perform similarly to your current CPU according to Userbenchmark. Their integrated graphics (Vega 8 and Vega 11 respectively) are going to be a lot weaker than a 1060, but without knowing what you're running currently I can't be sure if it would be an upgrade graphics wise. It is substantially more powerful than any Intel integrated solutions. And you could get both a mini-ITX b450 motherboard and the APU for about the cost of a 1060. I really have no idea if it would be enough to support your GPU computing needs.

Another thing to consider is that there are a lot of SFF GTX 1060 cards out there, some even under 200mm in length. So you should be able to fit one into your SFF case. For example both the Zotac 1060 6GB Mini and AMP! cards should fit in the fractal node 202. Actually a Zotac 1070Ti Mini would fit in that case. Other AIBs have compact 1060s, I just picked one for simplicity and thier's stood out in my memory as cropping up a lot. I don't think you have to worry about fitting the graphics card you want into a mini itx case, as long as you choose one designed for mini ITX.

Really it all depends on your budget and how much GPU power you need. I would just be hesitant to buy another motherboard for the 2500k. It is still a great chip and I wouldn't necessarily recomend upgrading right now, but I also wouldn't reccomend spending more on the platform at this point.

 

[beyondinfinity]

Thanks, I didn't even know they made mini version of these graphics cards. Are there any performance differences? Or are they pretty much the same, just in a smaller package?

And yeah I agree I might not bother investing any money in my current system. Probably just going to upgrade everything all at once when the time comes.


But when is a good time? Everyone keeps saying that now is not a good time, but they've been saying that for a while now. how long will I have to wait lol

I also want to just get rid of this giant case so maybe I don't care for waiting anymore.

 

[Jasonaaronfox]

Thanks, I didn't even know they made mini version of these graphics cards. Are there any performance differences? Or are they pretty much the same, just in a smaller package?

And yeah I agree I might not bother investing any money in my current system. Probably just going to upgrade everything all at once when the time comes.


But when is a good time? Everyone keeps saying that now is not a good time, but they've been saying that for a while now. how long will I have to wait lol

I also want to just get rid of this giant case so maybe I don't care for waiting anymore.

I've done some searching on this topic and the biggest issue seems to be insufficient stock cooling.

One option if you have the space in the ITX case for an AIO is to use a mount such as the Kraken G12 to mount a cpu AIO cooler to it, then put some heat sinks on the VRAM and make sure you have sufficient airflow over those heat sinks. In my case I'm adding another small fan inside the case that blows at the video card just for that purpose.

Here's someone using the kraken on a mini 1080ti: https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/zotac-mini-gtx-1080ti-and-kraken-g12-aio.18829534/

 

[Zerileous]

Do you think thats mainly with the more powerful cards like the 1080ti, or would a 1 fan 1060 have temp problems?

In terms of power I know the shortened cards at least (under 200mm) usually have weaker VRMs, but the case you like lets you do longer 2 fans cards so that might help with both problems.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Is it really taking up that much room? It is a "mid" tower so not a monster case. The problem with smaller cases is they tend to have less cooling options and greater heat problems.

If you are going to go all in (option 3) then really do go "all" in. That is, new motherboard, new CPU, new "DDR4" RAM, and for sure, go with SSDs. Yeah, SSDs cost more but they are MUCH smaller, consume less energy and generate less heat (important in smaller cases). Plus, even the slowest SSD will run circles around the fastest hard drive.

I really want something like the Fractal Design Node 202, but I don't think this will fit the graphics card i want.

Did you check out the specs for that case? It supports graphics cards up to 310mm in length. That would be a HUGE card! FTR, I love Fractal Design cases. I have worked with several and all are very well made, have great designs, and FD fans are also great.

One thing to consider should you decide to upgrade your motherboard. New motherboards are considered new computers in terms of software licenses. If your current Windows license is an OEM/System Builders license or an upgrade to an OEM/System Builders (and the vast majority fall into those categories), to be legal, you will need to purchase a new Windows license. Under no circumstances are OEM licenses transferable to new computers legally. Only full "Retail" licenses can legally be transferred. So if necessary, you will need to budget for a new license, or go with a free Linux.

 

[Jasonaaronfox]

Do you think thats mainly with the more powerful cards like the 1080ti, or would a 1 fan 1060 have temp problems?

In terms of power I know the shortened cards at least (under 200mm) usually have weaker VRMs, but the case you like lets you do longer 2 fans cards so that might help with both problems.

My evga single fan card has a temp problem. Hits 71c gaming. I’m doing a kraken install.

 

[trents]

71c while gaming is not a problem at all I don't think. That's a safe temp. I think the bigger problem with the mid tear and higher tear single fan GPUs is fan noise. The single fan has to ramp up faster and louder to get the job done.

 

[beyondinfinity]

71c while gaming is not a problem at all I don't think. That's a safe temp. I think the bigger problem with the mid tear and higher tear single fan GPUs is fan noise. The single fan has to ramp up faster and louder to get the job done.

Ugh, well that sucks. So much for my SFF build AND silent pc. Definitely sticking with a case that supports full size graphics card then.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I think the bigger problem with the mid tear and higher tear single fan GPUs is fan noise. The single fan has to ramp up faster and louder to get the job done.

Are you talking about the fans on a specific card?

In general, I like a single big fan instead of multiple smaller fans. This is because larger fans, with their significantly larger blades, tend to move the same amount of air while spinning much slower - thus quieter. That's why 140mm case fans are preferred over 120mm which are preferred over 80mm.

Another factor is fan quality. Cheap fans tend to make more racket, regardless their size. And of course, how well the case suppresses noise matters too. The design of the fan cowling (if there is one) matters too. While cowlings with double wide cards that direct the heated air out the back of the case are nice in terms of expelling the heat (instead of dumping it back into the case), the fan noise is often louder - especially if it bounces off a back wall.

@ beyondinfinity - are you no longer considering the Fractal Design NODE 202? Again, with it supporting 310mm graphics cards, it seems you are good to go with a full size card. TPU did a review of it here and liked it.

But when is a good time? Everyone keeps saying that now is not a good time, but they've been saying that for a while now. how long will I have to wait lol

The best time is when you have the money and you are ready. Otherwise, there is no good time. This is because all the components you want for your computer will NOT go on sale at the same time.

So just save your pennies and when ready, buy all at once (or at least withing the same 7 - 10 day period. I do not recommend you buy piecemeal over several months for several reasons. First, the "no-questions-asked" return periods from the retailers, and the warranties from the manufacturers start at the date of purchase. Second, especially with motherboards and graphics cards, you want the models with the latest revision and firmware. And third, new, better, and faster models come out all the time. You don't want to spend good money on this graphics card, only to learn in a couple months you would rather that shiny new card that just came out.

I know many like to buy their parts over time as the budget becomes available so they don't spend the money on something else. But it really is better to save up until you can buy everything at once. Then shop around. I never buy all the components from one vendor. I may buy a PSU from Amazon and my RAM from Newegg and my board from somewhere else - whoever has the best price that day (don't forget to factor in shipping - if any).

 

[trents]

Yes, it will depend on the size of the fan (and the heatsink) and it will vary from card to card but it would be difficult to imagine getting the same cooling power from a one fan card that you would get with a card having say, 2x92mm fans assuming RPM and design are the same. To equal that air movement with one fan the fan would have to be approximately 184mm in diameter. The only single fan card I have owned that would remotely be considered gaming class was a GTX 1050Ti and it was not loud to my ears. But in surfing the forums and reading the evals on Amazon and NewEgg of those who buy mid range GPUs with one fan I see a lot of complaints about excessive fan noise. So yes, I was speaking in general terms but there are exceptions.

The other major factor here is acuity of hearing. I have some hearing loss so I'm less sensitive to noise than those with better hearing.

 

[Jasonaaronfox]

71c while gaming is not a problem at all I don't think. That's a safe temp. I think the bigger problem with the mid tear and higher tear single fan GPUs is fan noise. The single fan has to ramp up faster and louder to get the job done.

It was noisy. Very very noisy. It also was too much heat for a mini-itx case already crammed full of stuff.

But we solved that problem!

 

[Bill_Bright]

but it would be difficult to imagine getting the same cooling power from a one fan card that you would get with a card having say, 2x92mm fans assuming RPM and design are the same.

I agree but it is not really about getting the same cooling power. It is about getting sufficient cooling power along with the cooling efficiency of the attached cooler.

assuming RPM and design are the same.

While this qualifies your argument, I think at the same time it disqualifies it. This is cherry-picking a specific scenario and applying it to all scenarios. I sure would NOT assume the fans in your 2 x 92mm scenario are of the same design and spinning at the same RPM than say, a 1 x 120mm fan. But to that, lets look at that for a second. For one, even if the same design and RPM, the blade on a 120mm fan will scoop up and push more air than the blade on the 92mm fan. So it is not just about design and RPM, but CFM too.

The area of a circle is r x r x π (that π is supposed to be the ascii symbol 227 for pi). With 92mm fans that's, 46 x 46 x 3.14 = 6,644.24. Times 2 fans = 13,288.44 mm squared.

With a 120mm fan that's 60 x 60 x 3.14 = 11,304 mm squared. That's just 15% smaller. I don't think that is that significant considering the size, composition, fin shape and surface area of the heatsink, and other factors are considered too.

I am NOT saying you are wrong. With your hand-picked scenario, I am sure you are right. I am saying you cannot apply your very specific scenario to make a blanket statement about all cards. There is nothing to suggest two cards WILL use the same design and RPM fans, but one uses 2 x 92 and the other 1 x 120. You cannot assume they will use the exact same heatsink either. It is quite possible the 120mm fan is of much higher quality, is capable of moving more air while keeping fan noise suppressed. And it is probable the heatsink with the 120mm fan is optimized for that size fan - just as the heatsink to be used with 2 x 80mm is optimized for them too.

And to the noise, pretty sure in many if not most scenarios, two fans can make more noise than one. And considering the surface area of the blades, a 80mm fan of the same design as a 120mm would have to spin considerably faster to push the same amount of air!

Proper cooling, of course, is absolutely essential and critical. But cooler temps do not automatically mean better. As long as the protected device's temp is maintained comfortably within its "normal operating temperature range", that's fine. That is, there is no reason to suggest or assume a processor, designed to run fine up to 90°C will perform better, be more stable, or have a longer life expectancy if it is maintained at 60°C instead of 70°C.

 

[trents]

Whatever, Bill. I'm not inclined to get into an argument about it.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Why does debating an issue have to turn into a personal argument with you? Oh well. "Whatever", trents.

I was just pointing out a single anecdotal example does not make the rule.

Another point to consider is fan noise is not just about the noise made by the moving air. There is also 2 motors versus 1 motor. 2 sets of bearings versus 1 set. And 8 mounting points where fan vibrations may be transferred to a card or case versus just 4 with a single fan.

Yes, a single 120mm fan spinning at full speed will likely make more noise than a single 80mm fan of the same design spinning at full speed. But the 120mm fan will be moving a lot more air at that point. Slow down the RPMs and noise of both decreases while the 120mm fan is still pushing more air. Add a second 80mm fan to increase air flow, but then you add a second motor and bearing noise - not to mention you consume more power.

Something else to think about and picture in our heads. Area of rectangle/square equals length time width so:

80mm x 80mm x 2 fans = 12,800mm²
120mm x 120mm x 1 fan = 14,400mm²​

The math doesn't lie, or have an opinion.

If you want to continue to debate this fine, if not, that is fine too. Have a good day.

 

[beyondinfinity]

Thanks guys, so the solution for me is then

- don't bother spending money on current system
- instead buy all new components when I'm ready
- use a mini itx case in which I can fit a full size graphics card to minimize fan noise
- make sure case has enough room inside for adequate cooling

 

[Bill_Bright]

Well, IMO, the mini ITX case is just a matter of personal choice. I would not buy an ITX case unless I was going to put an ITX motherboard in there. But that's me. A larger case provides greater flexibility down the road. For example, should you want to, in a couple years, upgrade to a µATX or standard ATX motherboard, the µATX board may not fit, and the standard ATX likely will not fit in a mini ITX case.

BTW, I don't see where you defined what you are looking for in a "smaller" case. Is it a smaller "footprint"? Or is it height you are worried about? Or just smaller in all dimensions?

There are also the NUC computers which can make for a nice project.

 

[trents]

Bill asks a good question here. How do you need it to be smaller? Height? Width? Depth? Are you facing a particular space constraint in the placement area? In my experience, sometimes I have focused on one parameter to the exclusion of others but was not happy with the overall result because I didn't see the downsides. A small form factor is cool in some ways but it will likely restrict air flow and cooler choices and may require a non standard power supply. It may also make working inside of it difficult. Some compromise may give the best satisfaction in the long run.

 

[Bill_Bright]

...and may require a non standard power supply.

Which typically means fewer options to choose from. That FD Node 202, for example, supports "SFX" PSUs - not standard ATX. I note Newegg offers just 12 compared to over 500 ATX supplies.

Also, when it comes to taking up room space, consider the fact a well designed computer desk, one capable of housing your computer, supporting one or even two monitors, speakers, printer and all your network gear - and mouse and keyboard too - can actually better utilize floor and room space than a poorly designed, or makeshift desk - not to mention add a pleasant aesthetic value to the room too. And it can provide a place to park your chair when not occupied.

A different smaller case to consider is the FD Core 500. While it is as wide as many mid-towers, it is not as deep and much shorter. But it has lots of cooling options, supports ATX PSUs upto 160mm in length for modular, 310mm graphics cards, 170mm CPU coolers, and it has removable, washable air filters - a must for any case I own. You are still limited to ITX motherboards, however. It comes with a near silent 140mm fan in back that does a great job of keeping my son's innards cool. But note this case also supports many water cooling options.