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UPS for 1.19 kW (1190 Watts) killed my APC 1500 VA
- Thread starter eduncan911
- Start date
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2005
- Location
- Tau'ri
If they put a server quality fan in the unit, there is a reason for it.
Now could you mod it up with a voltage reducer? probably very easily. Goign to have to monitor the temps of it when you are loading it up though, it might need that much CFM.
Servers are best put in other rooms. If you are that handy with replacing an electrical outlet, how handy are you at rewiring? Maybe add extension cables and put the stuff in another room, just have USB, HDMI/DP connectors and audio hookups in your living space. Keep all the loud stuff some where else.
I always imagined a closet with active venting would be great. something to pipe hot air straight up and out during the summer that could be discharged into the house via flue during the winter.
Now could you mod it up with a voltage reducer? probably very easily. Goign to have to monitor the temps of it when you are loading it up though, it might need that much CFM.
Servers are best put in other rooms. If you are that handy with replacing an electrical outlet, how handy are you at rewiring? Maybe add extension cables and put the stuff in another room, just have USB, HDMI/DP connectors and audio hookups in your living space. Keep all the loud stuff some where else.
I always imagined a closet with active venting would be great. something to pipe hot air straight up and out during the summer that could be discharged into the house via flue during the winter.
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #24
Yeah, I've been poundering the modding route for a different fan or a special on/off switch based on temp (off for normal use).
For the record, this is for my silent Desktop. Used 95% of the time for software development. Pulls about 380W most of the time at idle, and that's because of the 3-way 580 GTX at "idle" (wish they idled lower).
But that 5% of gaming exceeds the 1.2kW threshold! Hence, the reason for this original thread.
Reduce the voltage, and hope it cools enough when on battery? No problem! As I can assure you that if the power fails and I am gaming, the rig is immediately getting powered off. As a matter of fact, I have the power settings to power down the PC safely at 50% battery load. Which was about 5 minutes on the APC BackUPS 1500 VA (830W) I had before, at idle.
As for placing my "desktop" in another room or closet: well, I live around New York City - so the cost for a 3 bedroom or something with large closets is just insane. Plus, the amount of cables needed to route the desktop and 3 120Hz LCDs and all is just not practical (and out of specifications for the length of cables).
I'm best off throwing the UPS into a closet. But even then, where I live it is so quiet and I can hear my WHS, which is much quieter, in the other room.
This is a brand spanking 3-year warrantied new APC monster. The thought of tearing it apart to replace/modify the fan is disturbing, considering how much this thing was.
What I am affraid of is it may be using an AC fan (alternating current, not direct current or DC), or some special form factor that makes it difficult to find a replacement for.
^- That above coming from someone who built his own computer back in the 80s, and have written my own software to control the fans and leds on my current system (see sig), not to mention the cutting and grinding and modding that went into that same system in my sig. LOL
For the record, this is for my silent Desktop. Used 95% of the time for software development. Pulls about 380W most of the time at idle, and that's because of the 3-way 580 GTX at "idle" (wish they idled lower).
But that 5% of gaming exceeds the 1.2kW threshold! Hence, the reason for this original thread.
Reduce the voltage, and hope it cools enough when on battery? No problem! As I can assure you that if the power fails and I am gaming, the rig is immediately getting powered off. As a matter of fact, I have the power settings to power down the PC safely at 50% battery load. Which was about 5 minutes on the APC BackUPS 1500 VA (830W) I had before, at idle.
As for placing my "desktop" in another room or closet: well, I live around New York City - so the cost for a 3 bedroom or something with large closets is just insane. Plus, the amount of cables needed to route the desktop and 3 120Hz LCDs and all is just not practical (and out of specifications for the length of cables).
I'm best off throwing the UPS into a closet. But even then, where I live it is so quiet and I can hear my WHS, which is much quieter, in the other room.
This is a brand spanking 3-year warrantied new APC monster. The thought of tearing it apart to replace/modify the fan is disturbing, considering how much this thing was.
What I am affraid of is it may be using an AC fan (alternating current, not direct current or DC), or some special form factor that makes it difficult to find a replacement for.
^- That above coming from someone who built his own computer back in the 80s, and have written my own software to control the fans and leds on my current system (see sig), not to mention the cutting and grinding and modding that went into that same system in my sig. LOL
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #25
Called APC, there is nothing they can do (e.g. won't replace the fan with a quieter one). I recommended that option, since I found two instances on their APC forums of where they did exactly that - for lower grade units.
Upon closer inspection, there are two 80mm 24V fans that I see. Yeah, I can install some quiet 80mm versions, no doubt. But, he assured me that once I opened the unit it voids the warranty. What I find interesting is there is a good 7 to 8" of "dead space" in front of the fans. Nothing. Just wide open to the front panel. No doubt I can install some super thick foam here to dampen it, but they are still oud. It would just be muffled. Most likely, I'll try to find a way to turn off the original two 80mm fans at all times until the voltage raises above a certain level (got to love Radio Shack kits). And then, install two low-speed "silent" 12V 80mm fans so there is at least some air flow to run at times ontop of the two original ones (thick foam would easily hold them in place - no modding!). That would be the easiest to "restore to factory condition" if I wanted to resell it.
As an alternative, he recommended the SMT2200. It's about $300 cheaper (on eBay, going for the same price I "stole" this for). It has a single 92mm fan, which is easier to replace and keep quiet than smaller 80mm fans. It is rated at 45db, instead of the 55db that my SMX2200 RM is, so it's still way too loud (hence, replacing it).
So... What do you guys think?
Option A) Open her up and replace/mod the OEM 80mm fans with some quiet low-speed 12V units, and cut the voltage in half (easy with a few resistors) or turn them off and just run the two additional 80mm units. E.g. keep the unit.
Option B) Return the unit (I have a 7 day return policy for full refund, but I'll be out the $85 to ship it back). Buy an SMT200, and replace that fan ... Voiding the warranty anyways.
Option C) Look for another vendor. Does CyberPower have any "quiet" 1500 Watt units? (not 1500VA, but 1500 Watts).
I'm leaning towards Option A because I love it's very thin "2U" footprint mounted behind my desk. There are no upper/lower or side venting: it pulls air from the from and exits the rear, perfect for rack units. This is perfect air flow/venting when squeezed between a desk and a wall.
Thanks guys!
Ps, this thread is turning into a "modding APC thread", isn't it?
If that is the case, I'll start a new thread to track that "project".
Upon closer inspection, there are two 80mm 24V fans that I see. Yeah, I can install some quiet 80mm versions, no doubt. But, he assured me that once I opened the unit it voids the warranty. What I find interesting is there is a good 7 to 8" of "dead space" in front of the fans. Nothing. Just wide open to the front panel. No doubt I can install some super thick foam here to dampen it, but they are still oud. It would just be muffled. Most likely, I'll try to find a way to turn off the original two 80mm fans at all times until the voltage raises above a certain level (got to love Radio Shack kits). And then, install two low-speed "silent" 12V 80mm fans so there is at least some air flow to run at times ontop of the two original ones (thick foam would easily hold them in place - no modding!). That would be the easiest to "restore to factory condition" if I wanted to resell it.
As an alternative, he recommended the SMT2200. It's about $300 cheaper (on eBay, going for the same price I "stole" this for). It has a single 92mm fan, which is easier to replace and keep quiet than smaller 80mm fans. It is rated at 45db, instead of the 55db that my SMX2200 RM is, so it's still way too loud (hence, replacing it).
So... What do you guys think?
Option A) Open her up and replace/mod the OEM 80mm fans with some quiet low-speed 12V units, and cut the voltage in half (easy with a few resistors) or turn them off and just run the two additional 80mm units. E.g. keep the unit.
Option B) Return the unit (I have a 7 day return policy for full refund, but I'll be out the $85 to ship it back). Buy an SMT200, and replace that fan ... Voiding the warranty anyways.
Option C) Look for another vendor. Does CyberPower have any "quiet" 1500 Watt units? (not 1500VA, but 1500 Watts).
I'm leaning towards Option A because I love it's very thin "2U" footprint mounted behind my desk. There are no upper/lower or side venting: it pulls air from the from and exits the rear, perfect for rack units. This is perfect air flow/venting when squeezed between a desk and a wall.
Thanks guys!
Ps, this thread is turning into a "modding APC thread", isn't it?
If that is the case, I'll start a new thread to track that "project".
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
MY own personal opinion: I wouldn't open it up while its still under warranty, and if anything does happen to the unit or the equipment connected to the unit, you are pretty much SOL if you do.
Closet + muffler may work. And by muffler, I mean a large cabinet type deal, with baffles and such to keep the noise within the cabinet, so the only noise you should hear is the air flowing, not the whine from the fans.
Either that or get a different unit, but who know what that unit will sound like. My current 1500VA UPS is silent unless it kicks in, then the loud buzzing and fan roaring can even wake me up. I'm surprised your unit fans are on all the time, unless it is a active unit, which provides power from the batteries 24/7 to ensure perfectly clean voltage to whatever it is powering.
Closet + muffler may work. And by muffler, I mean a large cabinet type deal, with baffles and such to keep the noise within the cabinet, so the only noise you should hear is the air flowing, not the whine from the fans.
Either that or get a different unit, but who know what that unit will sound like. My current 1500VA UPS is silent unless it kicks in, then the loud buzzing and fan roaring can even wake me up. I'm surprised your unit fans are on all the time, unless it is a active unit, which provides power from the batteries 24/7 to ensure perfectly clean voltage to whatever it is powering.
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #27
1500VA doesn't support my 1.2 kW needs.
Hence, why I need more...All 1500W units, from CyberPower/APC, now have fans on at all times (low speed obviously, but they are on). Do a quick Bing (or Google), it's all over the net: people pissed off that in the last three years or so, the newer UPS units all have fans running at all times.
My previous APC BR1500 (1500VA, 830 Watt rating) was silent as well with no idle fan. It was replaced with an identicle-looking BR1500G: you can't tell any difference. Except now, the BR1500G has a fan on at all times, around 32db of noise "from 1 meter". People are pissed on the internet about this from APC. IOW, get an older APC to be quiet. Newer ones, have fans running at all times.
I don't have closet space for a mini rack or something to "muffle it". I guess I'll frack with the fans (Option A).
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #29
Update: two different fans
Ok, so I opened 'er up. Surprisingly, there is nothing to indicate a "void of warranty". A few turns of the torque bits, and she's off.
Next surprise: there's actually two separate ducts/tunnels for airflow over the heatsinks and transistors.
Next surprise: there are two completely different fans, side by side. One is a high-speed 80x80x32mm fan, and the other is a lower-end 80x80x25mm fan. They channel air through two different ducts. Obviously, the thicker highspeed fan blows over the heatsinks. The smaller one seems to flow air over some smaller heatsinks and numerous smaller parts.
YSTech FD248032EB 80x80x32
Voltage: 24 VDC
Range: 12~26.4
RPM: 5,800
CFM80.5
dB Noise: 56
Power: 0.45A
Sunon EE80252B1 80x80x25
Voltage: 24 VDC
Range: 10~27.4
RPM: 3,200
CFM: 41
dB Noise: 33
Power: 0.08A
The most surprising fact is that neither of fans have a TACH signal output. They simply have the 2 DC wires going to them. This leaves the option open to replace them with any fans you find.
So, having two different fans let me experience with the sound of one or the other. Obviously, the smaller one is much much quieter and preferred in my setup.
So, the objective is to seek out a similar fan. There are plenty out there that I am finding.
Before doing anything of this, I am connecting my desktop and surround monitors to it. I'm going to measure the internal temps from both ducts from both fans for a while (got to love ESA boards: I have 4 spare temp inputs to my PC, perfect for this project!). I need a baseline before making any modifications.
So far, the temps are at room temp under 900 Watts of load. This tells me things aren't getting hot what-so-ever inside that puppy when connected to the wall - figures, they are overusing the fans to save their ***. I'll do some gaming tonight and see what happens.
So, the take-away at this point is to plan on replacing the large loud fan with a quieter one, and closing monitor the temps after the replacement to see if things are similar to baseline.
To restate my objectives: This UPS is rated up to 1980 Watts of load. My desktop and tri-monitors max out at around 1200 Watts - when I am gaming. This will cause some heat buildup, as these SmartUPS series always run off of the battery (hence the matching sine wave). So, I am planning to replace the obnoxiously loud fan with a more reasonable fan.
Obviously, I'll never be "gaming" during a blackout. My system idles around 330 Watts, which is most likely the highest load the UPS will see when on "battery".
I am performing some baseline temp readings right now with the extremely loud fan as-is. After that, I'll swap it out in a week and do some comparisons.
Ok, so I opened 'er up. Surprisingly, there is nothing to indicate a "void of warranty". A few turns of the torque bits, and she's off.
Next surprise: there's actually two separate ducts/tunnels for airflow over the heatsinks and transistors.
Next surprise: there are two completely different fans, side by side. One is a high-speed 80x80x32mm fan, and the other is a lower-end 80x80x25mm fan. They channel air through two different ducts. Obviously, the thicker highspeed fan blows over the heatsinks. The smaller one seems to flow air over some smaller heatsinks and numerous smaller parts.
YSTech FD248032EB 80x80x32
Voltage: 24 VDC
Range: 12~26.4
RPM: 5,800
CFM80.5
dB Noise: 56
Power: 0.45A
Sunon EE80252B1 80x80x25
Voltage: 24 VDC
Range: 10~27.4
RPM: 3,200
CFM: 41
dB Noise: 33
Power: 0.08A
The most surprising fact is that neither of fans have a TACH signal output. They simply have the 2 DC wires going to them. This leaves the option open to replace them with any fans you find.
So, having two different fans let me experience with the sound of one or the other. Obviously, the smaller one is much much quieter and preferred in my setup.
So, the objective is to seek out a similar fan. There are plenty out there that I am finding.
Before doing anything of this, I am connecting my desktop and surround monitors to it. I'm going to measure the internal temps from both ducts from both fans for a while (got to love ESA boards: I have 4 spare temp inputs to my PC, perfect for this project!). I need a baseline before making any modifications.
So far, the temps are at room temp under 900 Watts of load. This tells me things aren't getting hot what-so-ever inside that puppy when connected to the wall - figures, they are overusing the fans to save their ***. I'll do some gaming tonight and see what happens.
So, the take-away at this point is to plan on replacing the large loud fan with a quieter one, and closing monitor the temps after the replacement to see if things are similar to baseline.
To restate my objectives: This UPS is rated up to 1980 Watts of load. My desktop and tri-monitors max out at around 1200 Watts - when I am gaming. This will cause some heat buildup, as these SmartUPS series always run off of the battery (hence the matching sine wave). So, I am planning to replace the obnoxiously loud fan with a more reasonable fan.
Obviously, I'll never be "gaming" during a blackout. My system idles around 330 Watts, which is most likely the highest load the UPS will see when on "battery".
I am performing some baseline temp readings right now with the extremely loud fan as-is. After that, I'll swap it out in a week and do some comparisons.
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #30
Oh, and I should note that while there is nothing that voids the warranty when opening the unit - the fans have plastic rivets holding them in place. Attemping to replace one fan will result in destroying these rivets, and therefore the tail-tail sign that "you did something".
If the system burns out, that's my own damn fault. But, if a power surge happens and destroys my equipment, well replacing a fan didn't cause that.
If the system burns out, that's my own damn fault. But, if a power surge happens and destroys my equipment, well replacing a fan didn't cause that.
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #31
Ok, the plastic rivets can be removed by popping them out backwards.
Also, the fan's connectors are standard 3-pin fan connectors. Though, they seem to be wired differently. Will find out next week.
Also, the fan's connectors are standard 3-pin fan connectors. Though, they seem to be wired differently. Will find out next week.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
- Location
- Chicago, IL
Noob Questions:
Do you really need a ups for a high powered rig?
For a surge protector, how many joules should a surge protector need to handle a 1400w (guesstimate) rig?
Do you really need a ups for a high powered rig?
For a surge protector, how many joules should a surge protector need to handle a 1400w (guesstimate) rig?
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #33
Basically, you need protection from surges. Lightning strikes have taken their far share of PCs since there has been the first PC. I know I've lost 3 PCs to thunderstorms over the years, not to mention a TV, frig, over, etc.
With that said, it's up to you if you want a battery backup. Me: our power is not reliable, nor stable. A flick on/off this morning actually! So I "need" one. On the flip side, a client that I setup in NYC down around Broadway & Grand Street has a router without a UPS. I logged into it a few weeks ago, and it's been up and running for 2.5 years straight - not a single reboot / power event (since I installed the router). That is called "Stable" power.
Now, this is difficuly to answer. Watts is the measurement of power (energy over time), where Joules is a measurement of energy.
The formula is P (Power in Watts) = J (Joules) / s (per second).
But that doesn't really get you anywhere, as what i remember surge protectors using "Joules" for is how much of a surge it can protect against over a certain time. For example, if a surge protector is rated at 2000 Joules, you'd think that is 2000 Watts per second right? That would give you the production of up to 2000 Watts, per second. What if the lighning strike lasts longer than a second? Say, two seconds? Now you are up to 4000 Joules required to be protected against.
I am not an expert on this by any means. Try Binging (Googling) for some results. But, as long as the surge protector can handle 15 Amps, I'd say it's fine.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
- Location
- Chicago, IL
Will a surge protector be good enough to handle my pc without losing it when a thunderstorm hits?
Because I really dont want to spend 2k on a usp at the moment when still saving for my gaming rig.
Because I really dont want to spend 2k on a usp at the moment when still saving for my gaming rig.
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #35
You can find good deals on eBay for around $300 to $400 for used ones. Batteries are easy to rebuild. If you want a "new" warranty one, you're looking at $800 to 1k. I've seen a few go for around $600, like mine, so some good deals are there.
I'd get one of those large Monster surge protectors if you are really pushing 1400W (I am only at 1180W, that's a hell of a rig you are talking about). It would protect you from lightning strikes, for the most part yes.
I'd get one of those large Monster surge protectors if you are really pushing 1400W (I am only at 1180W, that's a hell of a rig you are talking about). It would protect you from lightning strikes, for the most part yes.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
- Location
- Chicago, IL
Do you have any recommendation on a good surge protector?
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2010
- Location
- Doylestown, Ohio
I pretty much stick to APC for surge protectors. I've been wanting to get something out of their SurgeArrest Performance line.
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2008
- Location
- Chicago, IL
I've been looking around and I saw this particular surge protector. Has anyone used Belkin surge protector products before?
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #39
Really, what ever floats your boat. It says 4000+ Joules? Well, sounds beefy!
I can't recommend any "surge protector". Be better posting a new thread for that specific question (and not hijacking my thread).
OP
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2004
- Location
- Upstate NY and NYC
- Thread Starter
- #40
Update: Lots of ideas floating in my head after monitoring. It does warm up, but only 1C internal temp difference. So, I've decided I need some form of air-flow while in use.
Wanted the thermal-controlled fans, but they all require a steady 12V. This APC unit has a variable output between 16V and 24V, as I've measured over the weekend. Well, max is 24V even though I could never get it to kick into "high gear", even when gaming and pulling 1200 watts.
So, I just ordered some rubber-isolated 80mm fans to replace the two in the case. The smaller Sanon @ 33db is just a bit too loud for my taste, even running at 16V (66% of rated sound).
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8...5mm_Ultra_Silent_Fan_-_2200_RPM_-_19_dBA.html
Rated for 35 CFM at 19db - that's damn quiet!
So now, I'm off to Radio Shack to get a number of resistors to build ye ol' voltage divider to bring it down to 12V max range. Since the APC unit is pushing 16V normally, which is 67% of 24V, that means these fans will run at ~8V with the voltage dividers in place.
Just for sh*ts and giggles, I disconnected both fans in the APC and stress the system to 900Watts. Temps rose about 10C next to the heatsink - with no airflow. That is more than fine, but still needs some type of airflow.
I just hate that they will be running at all times, since I on;y work from my home office a few days a week / as it doubles as our baby room! If this bothers me too much, I'll move onto phase two: a temp controlled switch.
Wanted the thermal-controlled fans, but they all require a steady 12V. This APC unit has a variable output between 16V and 24V, as I've measured over the weekend. Well, max is 24V even though I could never get it to kick into "high gear", even when gaming and pulling 1200 watts.
So, I just ordered some rubber-isolated 80mm fans to replace the two in the case. The smaller Sanon @ 33db is just a bit too loud for my taste, even running at 16V (66% of rated sound).
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/8...5mm_Ultra_Silent_Fan_-_2200_RPM_-_19_dBA.html
Rated for 35 CFM at 19db - that's damn quiet!
So now, I'm off to Radio Shack to get a number of resistors to build ye ol' voltage divider to bring it down to 12V max range. Since the APC unit is pushing 16V normally, which is 67% of 24V, that means these fans will run at ~8V with the voltage dividers in place.
Just for sh*ts and giggles, I disconnected both fans in the APC and stress the system to 900Watts. Temps rose about 10C next to the heatsink - with no airflow. That is more than fine, but still needs some type of airflow.
I just hate that they will be running at all times, since I on;y work from my home office a few days a week / as it doubles as our baby room! If this bothers me too much, I'll move onto phase two: a temp controlled switch.
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