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Windows 8: The Times They Are a-Changin'

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hokiealumnus

Water Cooled Moderator
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
HWBot - Breaking! Windows 8 Benchmark Records No Longer Accepted At HWBOT

Copying straight from the bot. Here's the original thread: http://forum.hwbot.org/showthread.php?t=82925

Breaking! Windows 8 Benchmark Records No Longer Accepted At HWBOT - Benchmark Result Veracity Compromised

As the result of weekend-time research, the HWBOT staff has decided to invalidate all benchmark records established with the Windows8 operating system. Due to severe validity problems with the Windows8 real time clock (“RTC”), benchmarks results achieved with Windows8 cannot be trusted. The main problem lies with the RTC being affected when over- or underclocking under the operating system. The operating system uses the RTC as reference clock, and benchmarks use it to reference (benchmark) time.

Background Information – Remember Heaven?

At the moment of writing, we do not have the full technical what’s and how’s figured out. Since this problem affects everyone who is passionate about overclocking, it is important to provide an explanation. It is far from the complete story, but it should be enough for you to understand why we have decided to ban Windows 8 from HWBOT.

Do you remember the history of Unigine Heaven at HWBOT? About three years ago, we launched a wrapper for the back-then brand new DX11 benchmark software Unigine Heaven. The wrapper featured an easy and secure way to submit benchmark scores to HWBOT via data files. On November 2, 2010 we posted a response to an on-going discussion about downclocking in Windows affecting the benchmark score. To make a very long story short, by downclocking in Windows the Heaven benchmark time runs slower than it really is. One second in the Heaven benchmark is equal to 1,x second of real time. Because there is more time within a second, the system can render more frames. The benchmark itself is unaware of all this – for the benchmark, one second is still exactly one second. In the end, the system renders a higher amount of frames in a longer timeframe. In the result calculation for frames per second (“FPS”), the “frames” have increased but the “second” remains the same. You get a higher score.

Later that week, we published a V1.03b version of the wrapper, which fixed the downclock issue. Without going too much into detail, the wrapper uses a second source to verify the benchmark duration and takes the relative measured time difference into account when calculating the final score. Problem solved.

Windows8 – “Support for all devices”

As you know, Microsoft is trying to come up with a unified operating system and user interface for a wide range of devices, including tablets, smartphones, Xbox One, and the desktop PC. Building this unified platform is not easy. It is not just a matter of creating an interface that can be used with a multitude of input devices (finger, mouse, controller), but it also needs to support as many devices as possible. Getting the software to run out of the box on as much hardware as possible is the challenge they are facing.

Of the many aspects to fine-tune, one feature in particular is causing Windows8 to be practically useless for (competitive) overclocking: the RTC. Quoting Wikipedia, “A real-time clock (RTC) is a computer clock (most often in the form of an integrated circuit) that keeps track of the current time. Although the term often refers to the devices in personal computers, servers and embedded systems, RTCs are present in almost any electronic device which needs to keep accurate time.” Sparing you the details of development process, compared to Windows7 and previous versions, Microsoft made changes to how it measures time to be compatible with embedded or low cost PCs that do not have a fixed RTC clock. After all, having a fixed RTC clock adds cost to a platform.

Your PC system uses the RTC for many things. For example, it ensures the Windows Time on your machine is accurate. For most benchmark applications, the RTC is used as reference clock when executing the benchmark code. By synchronizing with the RTC, the benchmark knows exactly how much time has passed, and takes that value into account when calculating the performance of your system.

It’s all relative (part2)

In a previous editorial (“Critical thinking – Should Maximus V Extreme be …”), we already touched the topic of the relativity of time in our overclocking universe. “The concept of ‘time’ on a PC configuration is, if not synced via network or internet, an arbitrarily defined constant designed to ensure that the configuration is running in sync with the real world. In other words: hardware and software engineers ensure that ‘one second’ on your PC equals ‘one second’ in real time. One of the reasons why it’s so important to have the PC’s timer line up with the real world time is to ensure that your PC can produce accurate measurements and predictions.” The points we brought up in that editorial are relevant again. To ensure that the arbitrarily defined constant of ‘time’ is the same on everyone’s benchmark system, we rely on the OS and hardware. This worked quite well, until Windows8 came around.

The problem builds on the problems we faced with Heaven. When downclocking the system under Windows8, the Windows RTC is affected as well. The biggest difference between Windows7 and Windows8 is that now all benchmarks (no exception) are affected.

Examples: Benchmarks and Windows Time.

Let us make this more practical. On our Haswell test system we downclocked the BCLK frequency by about 6% from 130 MHz to 122MHz. Using a CPU ratio of respectively 32x and 34x, the resulting CPU frequency remains 4160MHz. Then we ran comparison benchmarks. Here are a couple examples:

Benchmark Result at default Result after underclock Difference
Wprime32M 5.605 5.235 + 7.07%
Prime95 13.622 13.423 + 1.48%
Heaven DX11 1417.982 1522.567 + 7.38%
SuperPI 32M 7min 33 7min 10.799 + 5.10%
PiFast 15.78 14.88 + 6.05%
Aquamark3 351,160 371,902 + 5.91%
3DMark Ice Storm 141,977 150,526 + 6.02%
3DMark Cloud Gate 20462 21676 + 5.93%
3DMark Fire Strike 4727 5012 + 6.03%

See the thread for screenshots, videos and proper formatting. I'm just pasting it here.
 
Well that sucks, I was getting ready to take Win 8 32bit for a spin.

I really hope they don't pull my other submissions.:cry:
 
In theory they're pulling all records, plus any scores that look "suspicious". What exactly that means remains to be seen.
 
suspicious, that would include all of my scores if Pieter has any say in it. hehe, Im in for a ride even though I have no submissions with win8
 
I was going to say. If it's up to Pieter's discretion... :popcorn:

I know he's a good guy, but most issues over at HWbot could be handled in a better way. Namely the rules issues, issues with particular users, and upgrades to the servers and coding of the site. But I don't work in that field, so I can't really complain too much. It is a free service. :shrug:
 
If it's any consolation, he doesn't care much for me or most of my team either.
 
I have seen Pieter's discretion up close and personal. And dont much care for it, or see it as beneficial- for the most part anyway.
its= communism or take a hike.
The day he ran October out of benching he lost every ounce of credibility with me. So much so that I didnt post there for quite some time. I just truly enjoy the guys on this team, and that is what keeps me working. Which by the way, also benefits the "powers that be" at the bot.
Make no mistake, there is money being made at the bot as well. I am sure there is plenty of adverts there
 
I remember that situation all too well. Got a week off for defending you.
I agree. There is money being made there.
 
this is the only game I have ever seen that the refs make the rules and enforce the rules and play the game with the locals as well. wow, is all I can think
 
Think there's favoritism? :rolleyes: lol
Already called it out.......a few times. I'm the bad guy now.
 
Think there's favoritism? :rolleyes: lol

Absolutely not! It's the fairest of the fair! I'm not at all bitter at the treatment dejo/daughter got while at the same time something like 6-8 of the top 10 i7 950 (I think it was) WPrime scores were from team greece within 40mhz of each other.

Oh well. It's also the only game in town.
 
Fact. It's the only game in town. I'll just deal with it the best I can.
I'm mostly in for the fun anyway.
 
It's a sad day when a man's daughter can't honestly love something for what it is without taking frack for it. :(

If I had any kind of coding skills, I would pull the raw data for hardware and benchmarks from the HWbot API and run my own site. But alas, of those I have none.
 
As the result of weekend-time research, the HWBOT staff has decided to invalidat

As the result of weekend-time research, the HWBOT staff has decided to invalidate all benchmark records established with the Windows8 operating system. Due to severe validity problems with the Windows8 real time clock ("RTC"), benchmarks results achieved with Windows8 cannot be trusted. The main problem lies with the RTC being affected when over- or underclocking under the operating system. The operating system uses the RTC as reference clock, and benchmarks use it to reference (benchmark) time.


The above is from the HWBOT home page ( http://hwbot.org/ ) . Interestingly enough the link to more info, only has user comments and NOT the orginal post from HWBOT.
 
I do and looking at the hwbot api it would be reasonably easy... hmm....
 
Good.

Screw Windows 8.

I hope it dies in flames and costs Micro$haft millions.

Never used it to bench in HWBot, thank god lol.
 
I just reran every benchmark on windows 7 and got within a margin of error of my submissions under windows 8 with the exception of firestorm extreme which was lower on windows 7. This sounds like a witch hunt.

Edit: Also wouldn't it make more sense to simply add a subcategory for operating system and make it required for all submissions? Silly folk...
Second edit: I've written code to import info from hwbot api. Now I have to decide whether it's worth using it.
 
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I think that the difference in score happens when you run a benchmark and are changing the clock speed of the CPU mid-bench.
 
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