Speaker Wiring: Double Copper vs Copper-Aluminum

g0dM@n · Mar 13, 2007

Basically, here's what I'm comparing...
Speaker wire is always a PAIR of wires that are coupled together. You can have aluminum speaker wiring, copper speaker wiring, OR... one copper and one aluminum.

In the case of the copper-aluminum speaker wire, you would hook up the copper as FEED IN (positive), and the aluminum as FEEDBACK (negative).

Is there going to be much difference (refer back to thread title)?

I mean... does it matter if the feedback is copper or aluminum? I guess it matters when the aluminum oxidizes, but I'm truly curious. Monoprice has had the 18AWG speaker wiring OOS for 2months+. I've been checking their website almost DAILY and they keep pushing the ETA. The 16AWG is back in stock, but I already have a 100ft reel... and I feel like it's too thick for 60-70W satellites. I don't think it's necessary and the thickness is kinda ugly.

The stock wiring for my Z-5500s is 22AWG, and the stock wiring for my new Denon system at my girlfriend's is also 22AWG... just seems way too thin, and I feel like 18AWG may be perfect.

I saw this deal here:
TheNerds.net 18AWG 100FT Speaker Wiring for $6.32
From the pic, it looks like the copper-aluminum speaker wiring. With google checkout, I can pick up TWO 100ft reels (200ft total) for $12.63 shipped, but again the thread title is my concern.

Also, I'm just trying to learn cuz I'm curious.

If I can make the 22AWG last til monoprice has theirs in stock, but God knows how much longer for monoprice.

JCLW · Mar 13, 2007

Copper wire is superior to Aluminium wire. It conducts electricity better, and oxidizes (corrodes) less.

I highly doubt you'd ever see a cable with one Cu wire and one Al wire. Not anything that was ever approved by any regulating body, anyways. What manufacturers often do is colour the clear insulation on one wire, so it's easier for you to tell them apart.

Speakers work with AC power, with neither leg grounded (unless something is wrong). There is no Feed and Feedback, nor + and -. It flips back and forth all the time. The only reason terminals are colour coded (or marked) is so that all your speakers are phased the same way (so the diaphragm on one speaker isn't pushing out while the diaphragm on another is pushing in - these would cancel each other out and produce less sound, not more).

But anyways. You want Copper wire.

As for size, that depends as much on impedence (ohms) and length as it does on power.

In the marine industry wires have to be at least 18AWG, so that's where my tables start.

As a general rule:
18AWG will handle up to 200W
16AWG will handle up to 290W
14AWG will handle up to 450W
12AWG will handle up to 975W
10AWG will handle up to 2000W

Over ten feet, with a 4ohm speaker load, your power loss (wire heating) will be roughly:
18AWG: 3.2%
16AWG: 2.0%
14AWG: 1.3%
12AWG: 0.8%
10AWG: 0.5%

At twenty feet, the power loss will double. At five feet it would be halved. At thirty feet it will triple, forty feet it will quadruple, etc...

With an eight ohm load, the power loss would be halved. At two ohms, it would be doubled.

So an eight ohm load at twenty feet would have the same power loss as a four ohm load at ten feet (as a two ohm load at five feet).

For Aluminium wire do your calculations, and then buy your wire one size bigger.

Anyways, hope that makes a bit of sense.

g0dM@n · Mar 14, 2007

Makes sense... btw, I know CU is better than AL (assuming you mentioned that for argument sake as an introduction), but I could have sworn that one wire was copper and the other was aluminum with the wiring that came on the Denon system that I bought for my gf... came with 22AWG...

I wonder if my ears will tell the diff between 22AWG and 18AWG anyway... cuz if it won't, then maybe there truly is no purpose... though I usually like my stuff done right.

JCLW · Mar 14, 2007

You could split the difference and get 20AWG

g0dM@n · Mar 14, 2007

JCLW said:
You could split the difference and get 20AWG

Why you little...!!!

g0dM@n · Mar 15, 2007

So I was at my girlfriend's last night, and I checked the 22AWG wiring that came stock with the Denon system.

Looks like what I was saying was IN FACT TRUE!!!

One wire is copper and the other wire is aluminum!!!! So the copper hooks up to +, and the aluminum hooks up to -.

I don't lie!!

So now the question again... is double copper going to be better than this? And are you SURE that a speaker circuit is AC? I always thought it was DC...

JCLW · Mar 15, 2007

The lighter coloured one could also be tinned copper.

Nebuchadnazzar · Mar 15, 2007

A speaker circuit is always in AC, to reproduce sound you need to create pressure waves between 20 to 20,000 hertz, or oscillations per second, voice is like 500 oscillations per second.
Maybe the reason they used aluminum was to reduce material costs?
There will be no difference if the positive or negative connector is aluminum or copper wire, the only reason is to distinguish them so + on the receiver goes to + on the speaker (someone mentioned phase polarity).

By going to a 18awg wire you may find a small increase in volume because less power will be dissipated by the wires. If you use the system fairly loud, the larger wire is definitely a good idea. 22awg is really small for speakers.

I think that the speaker wire you linked would be fine. Copper is better than aluminum, but over a few feet it will make no difference at all.

g0dM@n · Mar 16, 2007

Nebuchadnazzar said:
A speaker circuit is always in AC, to reproduce sound you need to create pressure waves between 20 to 20,000 hertz, or oscillations per second, voice is like 500 oscillations per second.
Maybe the reason they used aluminum was to reduce material costs?
There will be no difference if the positive or negative connector is aluminum or copper wire, the only reason is to distinguish them so + on the receiver goes to + on the speaker (someone mentioned phase polarity).

By going to a 18awg wire you may find a small increase in volume because less power will be dissipated by the wires. If you use the system fairly loud, the larger wire is definitely a good idea. 22awg is really small for speakers.

I think that the speaker wire you linked would be fine. Copper is better than aluminum, but over a few feet it will make no difference at all.

I wanted copper badly, but monoprice was the only one with a good price for double copper 18AWG... I have their 16AWG double copper, but it's thicker than I need. Since monoprice has been out of the 18AWG for over 2 months now!!! (been checking ALL the time)... I figured I'd just go elsewhere.

With google checkout, I got THREE 100ft reels of the 18AWG alu-copper mixed speaker wiring for $18.XX shipped!!! Not bad @ all...

g0dM@n · Mar 26, 2007

JCLW said:
Copper wire is superior to Aluminium wire. It conducts electricity better, and oxidizes (corrodes) less.

I highly doubt you'd ever see a cable with one Cu wire and one Al wire. Not anything that was ever approved by any regulating body, anyways. What manufacturers often do is colour the clear insulation on one wire, so it's easier for you to tell them apart.

Speakers work with AC power, with neither leg grounded (unless something is wrong). There is no Feed and Feedback, nor + and -. It flips back and forth all the time. The only reason terminals are colour coded (or marked) is so that all your speakers are phased the same way (so the diaphragm on one speaker isn't pushing out while the diaphragm on another is pushing in - these would cancel each other out and produce less sound, not more).

But anyways. You want Copper wire.

As for size, that depends as much on impedence (ohms) and length as it does on power.

In the marine industry wires have to be at least 18AWG, so that's where my tables start.

As a general rule:
18AWG will handle up to 200W
16AWG will handle up to 290W
14AWG will handle up to 450W
12AWG will handle up to 975W
10AWG will handle up to 2000W

Over ten feet, with a 4ohm speaker load, your power loss (wire heating) will be roughly:
18AWG: 3.2%
16AWG: 2.0%
14AWG: 1.3%
12AWG: 0.8%
10AWG: 0.5%

At twenty feet, the power loss will double. At five feet it would be halved. At thirty feet it will triple, forty feet it will quadruple, etc...

With an eight ohm load, the power loss would be halved. At two ohms, it would be doubled.

So an eight ohm load at twenty feet would have the same power loss as a four ohm load at ten feet (as a two ohm load at five feet).

For Aluminium wire do your calculations, and then buy your wire one size bigger.

Anyways, hope that makes a bit of sense.

I just looked it up, and it seems that the Z-5500s have an 8kOhm load. All satellite speakers are 62W RMS and the center speaker is 69W RMS.

My longest cable run is 30 feet, which according to your chart...
Since it's 30feet, we'll have to triple the power loss
Since it's 8kOhm instead of 4kOhm, we'll have to half the power loss.
So according to your chart, I will have to multiply by 3/2.

For 18AWG wiring, my power loss at 30ft is 4.8%
For 16AWG wiring, my power loss at 30ft is 3.0%

Since 18AWG wiring can handle up to 200watts, is it safe to just use 18AWG?

Also, is your chart in reference to max output or RMS? I'm assuming max output...

And I dunno, but for some reason from some of my physics courses from college I remember RMS being [Max output]/sq(2)... so 18AWG would handle ~140watts RMS?

I hope 18AWG isn't bad for this system... I could always get 16AWG, but it costs about 3x the amout of 18AWG.

JCLW · Mar 26, 2007

With 18AWG, as long as your amp will not exceed 200W then it is perfectly safe.

The power loss has more to do with efficiency. Ie: if the amp is capable of 100W max, and you have a 4.8% power loss, then the most your speakers will ever see is 95.2W.

Continuous average power, RMS.

g0dM@n · Mar 26, 2007

JCLW said:
With 18AWG, as long as your amp will not exceed 200W then it is perfectly safe.

The power loss has more to do with efficiency. Ie: if the amp is capable of 100W max, and you have a 4.8% power loss, then the most your speakers will ever see is 95.2W.

Continuous average power, RMS.

yeah the power loss i figured, but RMS i've always not understood completely... I know it's a true rating, but never knew the definition...

thx for the info and keeping up with my posts, by the way. i greatly appreciate it.

So for my purposes, if the speaker gets 62watts rms at full volume, then with 18awg i will probably get:
62 * (100-4.8)/(100) = 59.02watts
with 16 awg i will probably get:
62 * (100-3.0)/(100) = 60.14watts

so i could get an extra 1.12watts at max volume if i upgrade to 16awg wiring, lol... I know this is all estimating, but that's where it proves to me that spending 200+% to upgrade the wiring is NOT worth it.

Though, the 16awg is pure copper, and this 18awg I'm using is aluminum for one wire, and then the other wire is a dull copper color... the protective coating is see-through, so it's not the color of that that i'm confusing.

soloz2 · Mar 27, 2007

here's what I use

It's basically redressed Canare 4S11 with and sold on solozaudio.com it's 4x 14awg conductors which effectively gives me 2x11awg

I used 18awg OFC copper for some time but the increase in low end and in overall dynamics that this cable brings make it worth much, much more then it really costs.

g0dM@n · Mar 27, 2007

soloz2 said:
here's what I use

It's basically redressed Canare 4S11 with and sold on solozaudio.com it's 4x 14awg conductors which effectively gives me 2x11awg I used 18awg OFC copper for some time but the increase in low end and in overall dynamics that this cable brings make it worth much, much more then it really costs.

I went to their website, and there's nothing to click on to get to a selection of products... ??

I tried this... http://solozaudio.com/

Btw, those cables look EXPENSIVE!!! There's no way I can find two 25-30ft cables, two 10ft cables, and a 6ft cable (all for a 5.1 set) for less than $75... there's no way in hell with cables as nice as that. That's like double shielded with banana tips...

Nebuchadnazzar · Mar 27, 2007

I think those cables would be overkill, especially if you don't have an expensive speaker set to match them with.

Maviryk · Mar 27, 2007

... Dude...

I just bought a 50' roll of 18awg from wally world for $25.... z5500's aren't that great for HT stuff, but decent for what you get.

I'm replacing the center speakers with a pair of 4ohm 3way car audios, gotta have that tweeter and super tweeter to couter act the boom.

g0dM@n · Mar 27, 2007

Maviryk said:
... Dude...

I just bought a 50' roll of 18awg from wally world for $25.... z5500's aren't that great for HT stuff, but decent for what you get.

I'm replacing the center speakers with a pair of 4ohm 3way car audios, gotta have that tweeter and super tweeter to couter act the boom.

you can get 50' roll of 16awg copper from monoprice for $6.24...
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...cs_id=1023903&p_id=2749&seq=1&format=2&style=

or 100' roll of 16awg copper for $14.94...
http://www.monoprice.com/products/p...cs_id=1023903&p_id=2793&seq=1&format=2&style=

i would have picked up the 300' roll if they EVER got it in stock, but they never did...

I actually waited over 2 months for the 18awg to come in stock, but it NEVER did...

the 16awg is awesome, but it's too thick to have going across a bedroom... so I don't use it and it just sits around

JCLW · Mar 27, 2007

I'm glad I could help.

One time you should think about oversizing wires if you're going to put them in a wall, because you may want to increase power and/or drop impedence at some later date.

For example, I'm setting up a system with two Yorkville AP2020s, driving four Peavey PR15s (one per channel). Speakers are 8ohms, and amps will make 400W at 8ohms (per channel). So 14AWG is smallest wire I can use (rated up to 450W). 14AWG @ 8ohms is ~0.65% per ten feet. At 80 feet that is ~5.2% loss (21W). But since this is on a boat, and the wires will be hidden behind the finished wall, I bumped it up to 12AWG in case they want to use 4ohm speakers in the future (or bigger amps/speakers). And this cuts the loss at 8ohms down to ~3.2% (13W).

Because all the power lost actually ends up as heat, another thing to watch when you run wires in the wall is how much heat (power loss) you're putting into the wires. When the cables are lying on your floor the heat is easily disipated, but if they are in the wall the heat will just build up (particularly in insulated walls). I've never seen actual rules on this (in either land or marine regulations), but personally I like to keep it below one watt per foot.

g0dM@n · Mar 27, 2007

JCLW said:
I'm glad I could help.

One time you should think about oversizing wires if you're going to put them in a wall, because you may want to increase power and/or drop impedence at some later date.

For example, I'm setting up a system with two Yorkville AP2020s, driving four Peavey PR15s (one per channel). Speakers are 8ohms, and amps will make 400W at 8ohms (per channel). So 14AWG is smallest wire I can use (rated up to 450W). 14AWG @ 8ohms is ~0.65% per ten feet. At 80 feet that is ~5.2% loss (21W). But since this is on a boat, and the wires will be hidden behind the finished wall, I bumped it up to 12AWG in case they want to use 4ohm speakers in the future (or bigger amps/speakers). And this cuts the loss at 8ohms down to ~3.2% (13W).

Because all the power lost actually ends up as heat, another thing to watch when you run wires in the wall is how much heat (power loss) you're putting into the wires. When the cables are lying on your floor the heat is easily disipated, but if they are in the wall the heat will just build up (particularly in insulated walls). I've never seen actual rules on this (in either land or marine regulations), but personally I like to keep it below one watt per foot.

This all makes perfect sense... but what thing I never understood is input impedence... does 8 ohm mean that the woofer puts 8ohm resistance on the circuit (channel)?

I know ohms as RESISTANCE in a circuit, basically cutting down voltage... but I never understood why a speaker is better at 4ohms than at 8ohms or vice versa... does lower ohms mean that less voltage is needed to drive the woofer? Just lost on that.

I'm gonna stick it out with the cheapo 18awg that I got... gonna keep the copper 16awg for future use when I really need it...

Nebuchadnazzar · Mar 27, 2007

For speaker impedence it's all about ohms law
V = R I (volts = resistance * current)
So 4 ohms will require higher current to drive than an 8 ohm.
this means you can use a lower voltage to drive the 4 ohm speaker to the same power level.

for example
5 volts, 8 ohm -> 0.63 amps (3.15 watts)
5 volts, 4 ohm -> 1.25 (6.25 watts)
so for the same voltage, the 4 ohm gets more power (power = V * I = volts * current)

Speaker Wiring: Double Copper vs Copper-Aluminum

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