AMD Zen Will Compete Favorably with Intel

Alaric · May 24, 2016

Vishera said:
THIS. Even if AMD doesn't get exact on a performance copy of the 5960X, their 8 core 16 thread CPU WON'T NEED A SPECIAL SOCKET INTENDED FOR SERVERS. Which would also contribute to AMD winning as the better value!

Perhaps allowing Team Red to regain some server market share? That should make motherboards less costly if they all share the same socket across the product line. There's an awful lot of hope/speculation for Zen here. It could be an amazing product if it even comes close to the hype.

EarthDog · May 24, 2016

Since when do you need a server board for the HEDT chips?

I see the value in a 'one platform for all' method that AMD takes... but is that really the best method considering the few boards you can really overclock an octo of theirs on? Take away the overclocking. Some boards can't run them at stock speeds without throttling even though it says its supports them. Id rather pay a slight premium for a more robust board... or one that doesn't throttle my CPU at stock speeds.

Dolk · May 24, 2016

Alright so I can't upload a picture, but the AM4 socket is the same size as the AM3+ (at least with a ruler next to it). My guess for server side is that they will have a separate socket. I've heard rumors that Optys will be close to the same size as Skylake Xeons.

Bluefalcon13 · May 24, 2016

Dolk said:
Alright so I can't upload a picture, but the AM4 socket is the same size as the AM3+ (at least with a ruler next to it). My guess for server side is that they will have a separate socket. I've heard rumors that Optys will be close to the same size as Skylake Xeons.

Do you know something you can't share?

cdawall · May 24, 2016

The server side socket will have to be larger. They are showing up to 32C setups which considering the consumer grade stuff is on 16C that to me means MCM with two dies.

Vishera · May 24, 2016

EarthDog said:
Since when do you need a server board for the HEDT chips?

I see the value in a 'one platform for all' method that AMD takes... but is that really the best method considering the few boards you can really overclock an octo of theirs on? Take away the overclocking. Some boards can't run them at stock speeds without throttling even though it says its supports them. Id rather pay a slight premium for a more robust board... or one that doesn't throttle my CPU at stock speeds.

X99 is Intel's server chipset, is it not? And 2011-v3 socket boards are typically X99 chipset. X99 boards are more expensive than consumer socket boards from what I have seen and that only adds to the huge cost needed for the HEDT chips. If AMD has THEIR 8 core 16 thread CPU on the same socket and chipset as they hex and quad core CPUs then they have already beat Intel in value by making it so you don't need a more expensive chipset and/or socket to run their most powerful CPU.

cdawall · May 24, 2016

Vishera said:
X99 is Intel's server chipset, is it not? And 2011-v3 socket boards are typically X99 chipset. X99 boards are more expensive than consumer socket boards from what I have seen and that only adds to the huge cost needed for the HEDT chips. If AMD has THEIR 8 core 16 thread CPU on the same socket and chipset as they hex and quad core CPUs then they have already beat Intel in value by making it so you don't need a more expensive chipset and/or socket to run their most powerful CPU.

C612 is intels server chipset.

Vishera · May 24, 2016

cdawall said:
C612 is intels server chipset.

Ah, my bad, Even still, getting their 8 core 16 thread CPU under, say, $700 or even $600 and making it able to run on the same socket as the rest of the Zen CPUs would put them ahead of Intel already. And if their quad cores (if they make any, I've heard they might only make hex and octa cores) have multithreading then you have to wonder if they'll beat the regular i7's too. And how much cheaper THEY will be. Because if you can get a chip that's in between an i5 and an i7 from Haswell, WITH multithreading, without paying the i7 premium....why wouldn't you?

EarthDog · May 24, 2016

X99 is Intel's server chipset, is it not? And 2011-v3 socket boards are typically X99 chipset. X99 boards are more expensive than consumer socket boards from what I have seen and that only adds to the huge cost needed for the HEDT chips. If AMD has THEIR 8 core 16 thread CPU on the same socket and chipset as they hex and quad core CPUs then they have already beat Intel in value by making it so you don't need a more expensive chipset and/or socket to run their most powerful CPU.It is not. That is the CXXX chipsets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Xeon_chipsets#Haswell-based_Xeon_chipsets

As far as price differences... its really not that much at all when compared to 6700K/Z170. For example...

6700K = $350 (this price just recently dropped)
5820K = $389

Decent Z170 board $150-170
Decent X99 board $190-210 (these prices have went up. I did this exerciser 2+ months ago and there were $170+ boards... BW-E is releasing soon it seems...)

DDR4 quad channel vs DDR4 dual channel (2x8GB and 4x4GB DDR4 3000 MHz CL15-15-15-35)...$20

So, to that end... you are looking at $100 difference between a Skylake 4c/8t versus a Hawell-E 6c/8t.

So again, yes, there is a small premium to get that over Skylake.

Here are some performance numbers: http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-5820K-vs-AMD-FX-8370/2579vs2983

cdawall said:
C612 is intels server chipset.

That is one, indeed.. there are multiple however.

EDIT - The X99 chipset handles 6, 8, and 10 core CPUs while Z170 handles 4 core on down.

You forget that people who NEED that kind of multi-threading capabilities can EASILY make the cost difference up with doing their work 31-66% faster. How quickly does a skilled hourly salary eliminate that cost in the long run??? You are forgetting that part of it. When time is money, your initial investment is certainly a consideration, but one needs to take into account its return over time in productivity efficiency versus the slower CPU.

trents · May 24, 2016

I wonder what kind of prices we will be looking at for Zen. Historically, AMD has been appealing in the last several years only because they were so much less expensive than their superior Intel counterparts.

Dolk · May 24, 2016

I would expect the prices to trend the same way we have seen in the past. I would also expect to see something like a 9590 again (but maybe not as power hungery).

trents · May 24, 2016

Dolk said:
I would expect the prices to trend the same way we have seen in the past. I would also expect to see something like a 9590 again (but maybe not as power hungery).

In what sense do you mean?

EarthDog · May 24, 2016

I believe he means they will stay much cheaper than Intel... ? No clue... EE's... :screwy:

trents · May 24, 2016

No, I mean the part about "something like the 9590."

EarthDog · May 24, 2016

Meaning a highly overclocked much higher power use/TDP than typical CPUs... you know, what the 9590 is.

cdawall · May 24, 2016

EarthDog said:
X99 is Intel's server chipset, is it not? And 2011-v3 socket boards are typically X99 chipset. X99 boards are more expensive than consumer socket boards from what I have seen and that only adds to the huge cost needed for the HEDT chips. If AMD has THEIR 8 core 16 thread CPU on the same socket and chipset as they hex and quad core CPUs then they have already beat Intel in value by making it so you don't need a more expensive chipset and/or socket to run their most powerful CPU.It is not. That is the CXXX chipsets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Xeon_chipsets#Haswell-based_Xeon_chipsets

As far as price differences... its really not that much at all when compared to 6700K/Z170. For example...

6700K = $350 (this price just recently dropped)
5820K = $389

Decent Z170 board $150-170
Decent X99 board $190-210 (these prices have went up. I did this exerciser 2+ months ago and there were $170+ boards... BW-E is releasing soon it seems...)

DDR4 quad channel vs DDR4 dual channel (2x8GB and 4x4GB DDR4 3000 MHz CL15-15-15-35)...$20

So, to that end... you are looking at $100 difference between a Skylake 4c/8t versus a Hawell-E 6c/8t.

So again, yes, there is a small premium to get that over Skylake.

Here are some performance numbers: http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i7-5820K-vs-AMD-FX-8370/2579vs2983

That is one, indeed.. there are multiple however.

EDIT - The X99 chipset handles 6, 8, and 10 core CPUs while Z170 handles 4 core on down.

You forget that people who NEED that kind of multi-threading capabilities can EASILY make the cost difference up with doing their work 31-66% faster. How quickly does a skilled hourly salary eliminate that cost in the long run??? You are forgetting that part of it. When time is money, your initial investment is certainly a consideration, but one needs to take into account its return over time in productivity efficiency versus the slower CPU.

On current setups x99 is workstation and c612 would be more server oriented.

EarthDog · May 24, 2016

Not getting your point in the context here... :chair:

cdawall · May 24, 2016

EarthDog said:
Not getting your point in the context here...

I don't know what people were saying, I'm just saying x99 isn't the server chipset.

What any of this has to do with zen I don't know. They look like they are keeping desktop and server separate which is good. I highly doubt these chips will compete with the 5960x, but I hope for skylake competition at least. Who knows maybe the server chips will compete with the xeons

Dolk · May 24, 2016

To clarify: I expect AMD chips to be at a lower cost than Intel, but probably not the same margin as Piledriver to Skylake/Broadwell. (I'd expect more inline with Phenom II and Haswell). I'd also expect AMD to create a flagship CPU like the 9590, 1090T, 940, and the FX processors of old.

MaddMutt · May 24, 2016

Dolk said:
Alright so I can't upload a picture, but the AM4 socket is the same size as the AM3+ (at least with a ruler next to it). My guess for server side is that they will have a separate socket. I've heard rumors that Optys will be close to the same size as Skylake Xeons.

What he was trying to say was all consumer chips will use this one socket. This also includes any recently released CPUs that still used the 28nm process

Does anyone know if AMD's SMT is stronger/weaker than Intel's.
If AMD can come shooting out of the gate with a Haswell equal and have it Overclock like the Phenom II. A lot of people will be taking notes.

What Motherboard are you using?????
I'm stuck @ 215 FSB .....QPI is at 1.4v and IOH is at 1.3v

Evilsizer said:
Ok for some reason the pics i have R15 doesnt have any AMD listed, not sure you can select one from a box some how need to look into it. R11.5 has a amd 12 core listed and the only one for some reason. That current run as you can see is at 3.6ghz with DDR3-1600 ram, now if you see the other X5660 listing. For some reason it didnt show the right cpu speed in there, that is my 3ghz with DDR3-1333 run. even with that lack of real cores for 12 threads with 400mhz more clock speed intel doesnt seem that far behind amd. One question would be which is more power efficient for doing the same work, when factoring intel beind a touch behind with handling 12 threads.

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