Back home to Team Red

[trents]

For years, I was an AMD only guy but during the FX era I switched to the blue team because of the huge performance differential that had developed. But with the advent of the Ryzen line that performance equation was dramatically rectified.

Now I'm back home as you can see from my Sig. Feels good! Cinebench scores are 66% higher on my R7 2700 overclocked to 4.0 ghz than they were with my 7700k overclocked to 4.8 ghz. Since I'm not a gamer the small decrease in per core performance was not an issue for me. FlareX 3200 runs at full speed no problem on A-XMP.

I feel like I'm doing my part again to foster competition between chip makers.

Johann45, the MSI B450i gaming plus AC we were discussing in another thread does now have the ability to increase vcore as high you need to for overclocking but there is a problem with granularity. You can only change the vcore in .0125 increments. That's kind of weird. I settled for 4.0 ghz because that is the highest stable overclock on 1.35 vcore I could achieve. You hear different things but most are reporting that AMD says 1.35 is the limit they recommend to prevent chip degradation. The other two complaints I have about the board are:

1. The DC mode on the CPU fan control header in bios doesn't seem to work with my three wire water pump. It momentarily reduces the rpm but then quickly ramps back up to full speed even while still in bios. The pump makes a ticking noise when running at full tilt so I like to slow it down a bit. To do that with this motherboard I had to add an inline resistor to the pump wire.
2. There is only one sys fan header. I had to add in a fan splitter hub to service my case fans and my AIO water cooler fans.

But I like board in other ways. Good stout power delivery component. Neat and clean appearance and solid construction. Big heat sink on the fets. No glitzy LED pulsating lights but there are headers for adding light strings if you want.

 

[UltraTaco]

Congratulations on the upgrade, Mr.Trents!

 

[trents]

And oh yes, A couple of hours ago I took out the FlareX and put the Trident Z (hynix) I had been running with the Intel setup and it works just fine with one of the "Try Me" 3200 mhz profiles in bios but with more relaxed timings of course the the FlareX was using.

 

[Woomack]

Ryzen is nice for small builds. High performance and still keeps low temps. It's a pain to install any unlocked Intel 6 core+ in a tight ITX case. It's or overheating or causes fans to make noise. In every case, I was underclocking/undervolting 8/9th gen Intels in small builds. I wonder how new AMD will look like in performance/heat.

 

[Robert17]

What temps are you getting at 4GHz?

 

[trents]

What temps are you getting at 4GHz?

HWMonitor is reporting mid 70s Celcius CPU temp with my Cooler Master MasteLiquid 240 running the Realbench stress test. HWiNFO64 and MSI Command center report lower temps by about 10c.

HWiNFO64 reports VR MOS (which I take to be the VRM temp) to be mid 80s Celcius under load at 4.0/1.35 vcore.

Like many others have reported on Ryzen systems, there is significant voltage droop under load. But there is no LLC option in the bios of this motherboard. Seems like only the higher end AM4 motherboards have that feature.

 

[Bill_Bright]

I feel like I'm doing my part again to foster competition between chip makers.

Really? By picking a team? That pretty much implies fandom and brand loyalty, doesn't it?

JMVHO but to me, choosing an entire team, or Brand A over Brand B does the exact opposite to fostering competition because it means you have already made up your mind - regardless the scenario. If AMD and Intel only made 1 or 2 processors within a single family of processors, then choosing one brand might make sense to me. But both AMD and Intel each have over 30 different processors within several different families of processors currently in production. That is, not just Ryzen 7s or i7 Kaby Lakes, as examples. Yet by declaring brand loyalty, that is suggesting every model from Brand A is better than every model from Brand B - and better for every computing scenario, regardless the primary use of that particular computer, or the user's computing habits.

While I may like Intel, NVIDIA, EVGA and Gigabyte, I am not brand loyal. When I am ready to spend my money, I look at both AMD and Intel CPUs. I look at both NVIDIA and AMD graphics. I look at Seasonic PSUs, and I look at Gigabyte, ASUS and MSI motherboards and so on. I do my homework to see which is the best for the money in that budget based on what the primary purpose of the computer will be. And that means I could easily end up with an AMD/ASUS platform, AMD graphics card powered by a Seasonic PSU and still feel confident I built a quality system for the money and my client (even if that client is me).

So IMO, being color blind is what fosters competition.

 

[wagex]

Really? By picking a team? That pretty much implies fandom and brand loyalty, doesn't it?

JMVHO but to me, choosing an entire team, or Brand A over Brand B does the exact opposite to fostering competition because it means you have already made up your mind - regardless the scenario. If AMD and Intel only made 1 or 2 processors within a single family of processors, then choosing one brand might make sense to me. But both AMD and Intel each have over 30 different processors within several different families of processors currently in production. That is, not just Ryzen 7s or i7 Kaby Lakes, as examples. Yet by declaring brand loyalty, that is suggesting every model from Brand A is better than every model from Brand B - and better for every computing scenario, regardless the primary use of that particular computer, or the user's computing habits.

While I may like Intel, NVIDIA, EVGA and Gigabyte, I am not brand loyal. When I am ready to spend my money, I look at both AMD and Intel CPUs. I look at both NVIDIA and AMD graphics. I look at Seasonic PSUs, and I look at Gigabyte, ASUS and MSI motherboards and so on. I do my homework to see which is the best for the money in that budget based on what the primary purpose of the computer will be. And that means I could easily end up with an AMD/ASUS platform, AMD graphics card powered by a Seasonic PSU and still feel confident I built a quality system for the money and my client (even if that client is me).

So IMO, being color blind is what fosters competition.

dude keeps switching between amd and intel depending what is better at the time.... its not like hes being a fanboy and saying he will only ever buy AMD because they are his favorite, cool your jets bro.

also, theres not even any reason to like evga over anyone else anymore their lifetime warranty doesn't exist anymore AFAIK.

from what i read he did his homework and decided that AMD was the better value not just hopped on the AMD band wagon because he likes AMD.

 

[Bill_Bright]

My jets are not running hot - my tone would be much different if they were. I was pretty clear I was just expressing my opinion, without criticizing anyone specifically. There's no need to try to stifle others from expressing their opinions.

As for being a fanboy, declaring you are for one team over another pretty much defines what a fan is. But to that, I did not criticize anyone for being a fan - in fact, I declared what I like! I said it is my opinion that does NOT "foster competition" - at least not with CPUs since each maker makes so many different models in multiple families.

also, theres not even any reason to like evga over anyone else anymore their lifetime warranty doesn't exist anymore AFAIK.

LOL For one it was an example. For another, pretty sure no PSU maker, including EVGA ever offered a lifetime warranty on their PSUs. EVGA did, at one time long ago, offer a lifetime warranty on some of their graphics cards, but not anymore. And of course, the offered warranty is NOT an indication of quality - just the amount of confidence a company has in the product not failing before the warranty runs out.

But for the record, I like EVGA power supplies because of their build quality, tight output voltage tolerances, excellent ripple suppression, high hold-up times, and low noise. Plus their outstanding 10-year warranty on many of their models doesn't hurt.

Lastly, I never said he didn't do his homework. I said I do mine before every build and make my brand decision then based on the requirements of that specific build, not on which brand I am a fan of. So I would ask you "cool your jets" and understand what is being said before jumping in to criticize and stifle another. Thank you.

 

[wagex]

Really? By picking a team? That pretty much implies fandom and brand loyalty, doesn't it?

i think i understood it pretty well, seems a little hypocritical to me, the posts entirely.

I like EVGA power supplies because of their build quality,

you did not specify psu's so i just assumed gpu, perhaps be more specific next time.

p.s. lets get back on topic

 

[Bill_Bright]

you did not specify psu's so i just assumed gpu, perhaps be more specific next time.

I did say, "AMD graphics card powered by a Seasonic PSU". Sorry you did not pick on that - or the fact my post was about fostering (or not fostering) competition. Perhaps taking the time to thoroughly read and understand the context and content of the comment next time might help you avoid getting confused.

p.s. lets get back on topic

Agreed.

 

[wagex]

I did say, "AMD graphics card powered by a Seasonic PSU". Sorry you did not pick on that - or the fact my post was about fostering (or not fostering) competition. Perhaps taking the time to thoroughly read and understand the context and content of the comment next time might help you avoid getting confused.

go back and re-read the sentence that "context" was pulled from... it reads as a completely hypothetical scenario.

not trying to split hairs here.... but literally everything your initial post said was hypocritical. i perfer x brand but i'll go with something else... but shame on trents for picking the one he prefers even after switching brands based on performance not his brand preference.

 

[EarthDog]

Trents... enjoy your new rig. Ryzen certainly has a place in the market and put Intel on notice.

Just for clarity... a fanboy is described as..

An extreme fan or follower of a particular medium or concept, whether it be sports, television, film directors, video games (the most common usage), etc.

Known for a complete lack of objectivity in relation to their preferred focus. Usually argue with circular logic that they refuse to acknowledge. Arguments or debates with such are usually futile. Every flaw is spun into semi-virtues and everything else, blown to comedic, complimentary proportions.

This is clearly not trents nor his reasoning for going back. He seems to have objectively chosen for his needs. Brand preference does not indicate fanboyism. For example, I prefer intel processors, but for objective reasons (my performance requirements to name one). He found his way home as AMD has now offered him something that meets his requirements.

That said, move on, gentlemen. Take any further replies to PM and let's not sully his thread by trying to make him out to be a fanboy.

 

[Bill_Bright]

It was not hypothetical at all. You are just refusing to accept the point - even after I clarified it. Unlike you, no where did I attempt to shame anyone.

This is not about picking a specific processor from Brand A over a specific processor from Brand B. That's perfectly fine if the processor of choice was chosen for its merits and not the color of its logo.

What my post was about, as I have noted 3 times above, and now for a 4th time, is about choosing an entire "team" or "brand" and how that may or may not "foster competition". But since you refuse to accept that that was my point, I'm done talking to a wall. Have a good day.

- - - Auto-Merged Double Post - - -

Sorry ED, you posted while I was typing the above. I did not mean to disrespect your wishes. And to be clear I was not accusing anyone, especially Trents, for being a "fanboy" which tends to be a derogatory term. NEVER my intention, nor did I use that term.

IMO, there is NOTHING wrong with being a "fan". As I noted, I prefer Intel, Gigabyte, EVGA (PSUs) and NVIDIA. I also like Fractal Design cases. The whole point I was trying to make is I will not hesitate to use AMD, ASUS, Seasonic, etc. if they offer the best choice at the time I am spending my money. And that, IMO, is what fosters competition.

 

[Robert17]

Somehow it got lost in the discussion, although it's in writing, that Trents has built systems from both Intel and AMD. Saying he went home implied to me that his first, and probably several, instances of early PC enthusiasm came from his experiences with very good AMD products.

My first build was an Intel. I could say it was my roots, my home, my first love, anything positive, and I am a fan of Intel. And AMD. They are both very good at what they do. I've built several rigs using each. I even had a Cyrix build early on. Not a fan. Ran hot, then hotter. And they went kaput. Nothing remains to be a non-fan of.

All that aside, a mini-build running at 4GHz is pretty cool. Surpassed my favorite AMD (965BE) that ran at 3.8GHz tops. The economy of AMD chips is pretty good on the wallet too. Nice work Trents.

 

[Woomack]

HWMonitor is reporting mid 70s Celcius CPU temp with my Cooler Master MasteLiquid 240 running the Realbench stress test. HWiNFO64 and MSI Command center report lower temps by about 10c.

HWiNFO64 reports VR MOS (which I take to be the VRM temp) to be mid 80s Celcius under load at 4.0/1.35 vcore.

Like many others have reported on Ryzen systems, there is significant voltage droop under load. But there is no LLC option in the bios of this motherboard. Seems like only the higher end AM4 motherboards have that feature.

Remember there is an offset temp. Real temp is lower and depends on the chip. For AM4, typical is 20°C, for TR is 25°C. This is the difference you should see between monitoring software as some programs are adding offset, some not.

 

[Zerileous]

Every model has a different offset. If you use HWInfo64 it will report Tctl and Tdie. Tctl is the offset temp used for fan control on the stock cooler. Tdie is the real temp. The 2600X doesn't have an offset, so it is reported as (Tctl/Tdie). Based on your measurements, I'm guessing the 2700 has a 10C offset. I'm remember seeing table listing the offsets of each of the AM4 Ryzens once, but I'm having trouble locating it right now.



edit: don't ask why it decided to report a negative value, I've never seen that before.

 

[trents]

Good info. Looks like mine has no offset as Tctl and Tdie are lumped together.

 

[Zerileous]

Yep, and somehow I found the table I was looking for earlier in two clicks
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-ryzen-7-2700x-review,7.html

Edit: I would just disregard HWMonitor, I read somewhere that it wasn't accurate on Ryzen

 

[Bill_Bright]

They are both very good at what they do.

Exactly!

Edit: I would just disregard HWMonitor, I read somewhere that it wasn't accurate on Ryzen

I read that somewhere too and I wish you bookmarked it because I forgot to! And now I don't remember if the source of that information was reputable, or biased.

Frankly, I find it very frustrating HWiNFO64 (my favorite, by far), HWMonitor, Speccy, CPU-Z and _________________ (fill in the blank) do not all report the exact same thing. It makes no sense to me they don't. The temperature of something is not a subjective value. If I put 10 different technology-type thermometers (digital, analog, mercury, resistance, thermocouple, infrared, bimetal, liquid crystal, younameit) in my oven, and it is 350° degrees in there, they should all read ~350°. And they likely will! If I put 10 thermometers in my hallway and set my furnace thermostat (located in same hallway) to 70°F, all 10 thermometers should read ~70°F. And they likely will.

All these hardware monitoring programs are getting their information from the exact same sensor. So why would the temperatures be different? Its the same problem with voltages. Why would two programs report different voltages? 60°C is 60°C. Period. +12.1VDC is +12.1VDC. Period. It does not (or should not) matter how that 60°C or +12.1VDC is measured.

Those sensors produce a specific numeric value that represents a specific voltage or temperature or fan speed. Why don't those programs use the same formula to display the true value? It makes no sense to me. I understand sample rates will be different. And sample times will be different so a couple degrees, RPMs, or 1/10s of volt variance should be expected. But way off? Doesn't make sense to me.

Another problem is a total lack of industry standards here. Even within the same brand! Different labels are used. Different sensor locations are used. So are we talking the same thing, or not? If this CPU temp sensor is located deep inside the core at a junction, and that CPU sensor is located on the case (or is it IHS? ), which is real? Which is better? How does one compare?

If pros find it confusing, it is no wonder the less experienced do.

And what are offsets and why are they used? A temp is a temp. It seems to me offsets are there to make the temp "look" cooler than it really is. Why? That makes no sense - unless the purpose is to deceive consumers.

Real Temps and Offsets explained. Oh, I totally understand now!

[rant off]