Innovative MMO's

[don'tknow]

Some of the most fun in MMO's was the TM/SS pvp (WoW) and the 'random PK failures' in Diablo 2 (yes, I know it's not technically an MMO).

Aion was fun too, until the goldbuying skill-less noobs got 50 and instant full endgame sets without actually having to work for them.

But features like dropping your gear I find pointless and not a test of 'skill' at all. Just adding to the grind and possibly adding some game developers on my kill list if my character gets screwed due to lag.

Main point of making a good game nowadays: Time spent should be effectively mostly spent on becoming better as a player, and less on grinding for levels/gear. Currently it's exactly the opposite, since the skill cap is so ridiculously low in most MMO's and it's all about getting best gear and knowing a little of the basic game mechanics.

 

[Peeved Kitten]

Some of the most fun in MMO's was the TM/SS pvp (WoW) and the 'random PK failures' in Diablo 2 (yes, I know it's not technically an MMO).

Aion was fun too, until the goldbuying skill-less noobs got 50 and instant full endgame sets without actually having to work for them.

But features like dropping your gear I find pointless and not a test of 'skill' at all. Just adding to the grind and possibly adding some game developers on my kill list if my character gets screwed due to lag.

Main point of making a good game nowadays: Time spent should be effectively mostly spent on becoming better as a player, and less on grinding for levels/gear. Currently it's exactly the opposite, since the skill cap is so ridiculously low in most MMO's and it's all about getting best gear and knowing a little of the basic game mechanics.

Good points, let me give you some examples of how this particular game handles those concerns. For one, there is no skill "cap" it's more of a soft cap limited by just the sheer amount of exp needed. This doesn't come into full effect until 3+ years of playing. Their are two methods of playing, gear freaks who work on gear 24/7 or buy gold. There are also the levelers, who just level insanely and get strong that way, when you're a level 70, gear comes easily. As for dropping items you only drop items if you're not full law. Kills in sieges/duels don't drop law so no risk there, only if you murder someone.

If you played hard for 6 months with the intent of leveling, you would be able to acquire gear pretty easily. By that time you'd be in the 50's and even with mediocre gear you could experience some end game play. The time this game requires tends to keep the kiddies out. Also the rate of $$$=gold for in game items is pretty ridiculous. A million gold is about $6, at level 50 your items tend to range in the 30-70 million range.

In UO the gear drop could totally be a slap in the face due to lag, but we just dealt with it. It was part of them game.

 

[uberwoot]

I play wow. I liked PSO but i dident care that Sega was so racist to American players and refused to fix problems that resulted in data loss for the American side but the jp side was fixed pretty quick. They also would update the JP servers way more often than the US servers. I still remember the hacker retaliation against the JP servers and Sega that killed the game.

 

[Peeved Kitten]

Sitting here bored again. Had issues in Lineage with being harassed and I could not get assistance. Looking for a new mmo again... Sigh.

 

[don'tknow]

Well, I've been mostly holding back to mention anything about Black Prophecy. There's not much to mention right now, but if they add more content, fix the bugs and polish this game, it will be easily one of the best F2P mmos out.

Unfortunately there's wayyyyy too many bugs right now. Most of it is unplayable. But the core gameplay is very good. Progress for fixing bugs has been slow, so I'm not sure what will happen with this game. Supposedly it's going open beta this month.. which I cannot believe because it's still so buggy.

Game balance is very bad right now, also. Weapons vary too much in power (ranging from completely useless to overpowered). Skill points got reduced last month which was another very bad move; now everyone is forced to use the exact same skill build with the same weapons, or they will get destroyed in PvP. Bugs make missions unplayable.

In a way it's very fun and addictive (when you first play it) but in another way it's a huge disappointment (when you play for a while and experience the many problems). I'm hoping the developers really pick up the pace and fix this game, as it's the first good mmofps I've seen in a long time. All I can really conclude right now is that it has good potential.

 

[RADIO_ACTIVE]

Sitting here bored again. Had issues in Lineage with being harassed and I could not get assistance. Looking for a new mmo again... Sigh.

Maybe try Rift I heard some good things about it. it is in beta but you should be able to get a key.

 

[Peeved Kitten]

Maybe try Rift I heard some good things about it. it is in beta but you should be able to get a key.

I almost feel bad for having done it but we actually started EQ2 and are having a great time. I've never been a big EQ guy, I played a bit of EQ1 but never messed much with EQ2. So far I am REALLY happy. A lot of the things that I've always looked at and gone this should work like "this", seem to work exactly like I want them to.

I have to admit I got a larger subscription so I could get an in-game mount at level 1 and we bought my wife one of the Station Cash in game mounts. I hate in game item malls etc., but I've run way to many lowbies to want to do it without a mount willingly again. (plus the mount she got looks totally badarse)

 

[lynchmob72]

If MMO's are to be "innovative", they are going to have to change a few things for sure. First off, i have been a gamer for quite a while. My MMO experience is:
Earth & Beyond, EQ, FFXI, LOTR, Warhammer, Aion, Eve, FFXIV, and even a few F2P MMO's.

I think the controls will stay the same because, well, they work. What needs to change is the content, and how you go about your routine. A lot of you touched on this already. Killing X monsters for Y rewards gets old, but still can be enjoyable. We all have to have some purpose, and a goal in game.
It's hard to do it correctly. They want you to play for a long time, so they develop the content to take time. If they make things too easy, then people will leave from boredom.
If i were to create an MMO, i'd try to implement a few things.

1) I'd turn the questing system into an employment system. You can make money, earn respect/fame, rewards, xp and so forth. I think this might help with immersion. You could work for a certain faction that gives certain perks to your char. There could also be faction wars of sort. Competition between players/factions could amp excitement.

2) I'd make the world big, but not too big. Make it easy to explore, but not time consuming. New areas are always nice after a while, but can become a chore when it takes 15 minute to reach them.

3) I'd make the best gear all world rare drops. Making sets have stat bonuses and maybe 1 use super abilities. Make them hard to get, but accessible to everyone at any level.

4) If my game has PVP, i would make it so that you can only attack another player within in a 5 lvl range of you. Also, PVP would be world PVP. Everyone would share the same space. There will be no realm vs realm. Imagine running some hard quest with some friends, and some PU guy trys to steal the loot. It's bashing time. This would also help with Bot problems. See a bot and rape him!
Well, that's just a few ideas anyway. Feel free to add to the list. Maybe we can formulate a kick *** MMO right here on the forums.

 

[mstersmith]

If MMO's are to be "innovative", they are going to have to change a few things for sure. First off, i have been a gamer for quite a while. My MMO experience is:
Earth & Beyond, EQ, FFXI, LOTR, Warhammer, Aion, Eve, FFXIV, and even a few F2P MMO's.

I think the controls will stay the same because, well, they work. What needs to change is the content, and how you go about your routine. A lot of you touched on this already. Killing X monsters for Y rewards gets old, but still can be enjoyable. We all have to have some purpose, and a goal in game.
It's hard to do it correctly. They want you to play for a long time, so they develop the content to take time. If they make things too easy, then people will leave from boredom.
If i were to create an MMO, i'd try to implement a few things.

1) I'd turn the questing system into an employment system. You can make money, earn respect/fame, rewards, xp and so forth. I think this might help with immersion. You could work for a certain faction that gives certain perks to your char. There could also be faction wars of sort. Competition between players/factions could amp excitement.

2) I'd make the world big, but not too big. Make it easy to explore, but not time consuming. New areas are always nice after a while, but can become a chore when it takes 15 minute to reach them.

3) I'd make the best gear all world rare drops. Making sets have stat bonuses and maybe 1 use super abilities. Make them hard to get, but accessible to everyone at any level.

4) If my game has PVP, i would make it so that you can only attack another player within in a 5 lvl range of you. Also, PVP would be world PVP. Everyone would share the same space. There will be no realm vs realm. Imagine running some hard quest with some friends, and some PU guy trys to steal the loot. It's bashing time. This would also help with Bot problems. See a bot and rape him!
Well, that's just a few ideas anyway. Feel free to add to the list. Maybe we can formulate a kick *** MMO right here on the forums.

Whats sad is AOC was pretty much all of that. Yes the game was launched half finished. It was a diamond in a goats butt. Problem was the damn control scheme was rediculous. Who came up with that crap? I wish it had a standard keyboard system and I would probably still play it. I like the litarature they pulled from.

 

[Douken]

My issue with that is that it turns into a power-fest, people spend exuberant amounts of money on the game and then they are godly. Our priorities here are different than overseas a lot of times. Someone from Korea may have no issue spending 10k on a game, because it's a different mind set there.

I would be interested in a game where you need some sort of actual skill to play instead of items/gear. There's just not really a good happy medium between grinding and skill play.

Innovative, need skill to play.

You've been describing EVE Online all this time. I've played tons of MMO's the only one I respect is EVE. It is, and will be even more awesome on the future. Check out this Dev Blog. To have an idea. The thing I love the most is that there's no grinding involved if you don't want to. I hate grinding.

What is the tl;dr?

Most itemIDs are now 64-bit integers instead of 32-bit.
This includes locations but excludes owners.
All item typeIDs are now 32-bit integers instead of 16-bit.
All item flagIDs are now 16-bit integers instead of 8-bit.


Why are you doing this to me?

As mentioned above this is all done to future-proof EVE Online for all the incoming awesomeness that our (quite possibly insane) ambitions have always aimed for: "The ultimate Sci-Fi Simulator". One often mentioned pivotal point for us to reach this goal is the coming of Incarna and its vibrant station environments, vital to lend further immersion to the universe. The upcoming DUST 514, both a shooter and console MMO, will introduce a new type of character into New Eden's single universe, exponentially adding to the depth of the world, its lore and it's components. This can't happen without increasing the number of available unique item IDs in the universe to account for these two new aspects of EVE and all they'll bring. EVE would then cease to be the ever-evolving organism it is today and stagnate. Nobody likes stagnation!

If you want a 21 day trial instead of the regular 14 day one, PM me with your email address

BTW, you should see The Butterfly Effect and Casualty.

 

[Peeved Kitten]

Innovative, need skill to play.

You've been describing EVE Online all this time. I've played tons of MMO's the only one I respect is EVE. It is, and will be even more awesome on the future. Check out this Dev Blog. To have an idea. The thing I love the most is that there's no grinding involved if you don't want to. I hate grinding.



If you want a 21 day trial instead of the regular 14 day one, PM me with your email address

BTW, you should see The Butterfly Effect and Casualty.

Thank you for the offer, I've tried but just can't get into EVE. I played SWG before they messed it up and that was fun.

I'm actually enjoying EQ2 a lot. There was an absolutely awesome quest I did about 2 days ago that made me think about this thread. It was a very simple treasure hunt style quest. You were given a "locator" and all it does is flash green when you're facing the right directions. Fast forward 20 mins of running and you're trying to fine tune in on this bright green light. It was very simple but one of the more engaging quests I've done in awhile.

 

[don'tknow]

If EVE wants to aim for "the ultimate sci-fi simulator", they need to at least implement true gameplay where the player is in control.

It's just hard to take a game seriously anymore if it uses the 'click this and the game does the work for you' mechanics.

This is part of what's wrong with gaming right now. They say 'ultimate sci-fi simulator' and many people automatically believe that without even knowing what it is.

Over time I've been noticing how misleading the masses with those kinds of statements is skewing their definition of what is good gameplay. It's heading towards the direction of "simulation means having the game do everything for me, I just click on one thing and watch!". Give those same people a game where you control the ship, have to actually aim and maneuver, and they'd go "Ewww this is too hard for me, I have to actually do things myself to get results".

Then come the people who would go "But easier gameplay is better, games are supposed to be fun!". That's what is being preached by the major game companies who want to make more money because they want to make more money, not because it's true. Increasing the skill cap by giving players more control does not make the game 'less fun'; it's still the same game, except its replay value becomes massively increased, which in turn actually makes it a better game.

Developers mislead the masses into perceiving that more control = harder gameplay as 'tedious/broken gameplay'. Tedious/broken would mean things like terrible controls, way too much grinding, bad game balance and similar things. Ironically, one of the biggest reasons they are trying to preach that canned mechanics are 'good' is because it is much more difficult to create a game with good controls where the player can move, dodge attacks, maneuver and aim, than a game with canned animations in which you click on something and your character/ship on-screen does everything else. Then they just put in a few number values for things like 'dodge' and 'miss' which are controlled by the game's RNG. It takes them less time and less work, which also means more money in less time.

 

[Douken]

If EVE wants to aim for "the ultimate sci-fi simulator", they need to at least implement true gameplay where the player is in control.

It's just hard to take a game seriously anymore if it uses the 'click this and the game does the work for you' mechanics.

This is part of what's wrong with gaming right now. They say 'ultimate sci-fi simulator' and many people automatically believe that without even knowing what it is....

You read wrong. I quote

incoming awesomeness that our (quite possibly insane) ambitions have always aimed for: "The ultimate Sci-Fi Simulator".

Incoming means is not present yet. Expect walking in stations later this year. Expect more life like characters in two days. Expect Dust 514, a Console FPS/MMO connected to EVE (meaning it affects EVE Online gameplay) in some years from now.


The picture's 2010 is wrong, should say 2011

On Topic:
There's currently an expansion being deployed. Maybe you can check it out since it changes the game play more than the previous two. I know gameplay has been more of the same for the last year and a half or so but with this expansion and the incoming this year, things will change for sure.

If any of that is not innovative I don't know what is...

 

[Daemonkin]

As long as you can't control the ships in Eve, it won't be the ultimate Sci Fi mmo.

MMOs are about immersion, and there is just something that pulls you out of that when the game plays itself for you.

 

[Douken]

...

I've seen people complaining about this. But it is really pointless IMO. What do u want, joystick control? Talk to the Original Poster of the EVE Thread, he's in the Council of Stellar Management this year, think of him as your representative.

 

[petteyg359]

As long as you can't control the ships in Eve, it won't be the ultimate Sci Fi mmo.

MMOs are about immersion, and there is just something that pulls you out of that when the game plays itself for you.

"Sci-fi MMO" != "FPS". Today's internet has far too high latency to support a worldwide MMO with real-time direct control.

Fleet battles often consist of hundreds of ships on each side. If you've got just 200 ships, each one directly controlled with a joystick, keeping track of the direction each ship is facing, weapons trajectories (If you don't want the game to "play for you", you're going to be shooting towards the front only. No locking on and then having your ship fire towards your rear.), the extra calculations for location now that everyone has free quick movement in all dimensions, etc., you're going to need to be paying a lot more than $15/month to support the bandwidth and processing power required.

Go find a nice Freespace server with a 32-player limit if you want to control your ship. You're complaining that CPUs and the internet aren't magically faster and more powerful.

 

[Daemonkin]

"Sci-fi MMO" != "FPS". Today's internet has far too high latency to support a worldwide MMO with real-time direct control.

Fleet battles often consist of hundreds of ships on each side. If you've got just 200 ships, each one directly controlled with a joystick, keeping track of the direction each ship is facing, weapons trajectories (If you don't want the game to "play for you", you're going to be shooting towards the front only. No locking on and then having your ship fire towards your rear.), the extra calculations for location now that everyone has free quick movement in all dimensions, etc., you're going to need to be paying a lot more than $15/month to support the bandwidth and processing power required.

Go find a nice Freespace server with a 32-player limit if you want to control your ship. You're complaining that CPUs and the internet aren't magically faster and more powerful.

You are making excuses and nothing more. I did not say it wouldn't cost more money. I did not say I wan't an fps, as I don't like fps play. I said its not the ultimate sci fi mmo because that layer of it takes away from the immersiveness that mmos need. That's just my opinion take it or leave, I care not.

 

[petteyg359]

You are making excuses and nothing more. I did not say it wouldn't cost more money. I did not say I wan't an fps, as I don't like fps play. I said its not the ultimate sci fi mmo because that layer of it takes away from the immersiveness that mmos need. That's just my opinion take it or leave, I care not.

I stated some facts. How did they turn into "excuses"? You say you don't want an FPS, and don't like FPS play, and yet you're complaining that EVE doesn't have FPS features... Your little picture doesn't magically make my post off-topic, either.

 

[Daemonkin]

I stated some facts. How did they turn into "excuses"? You say you don't want an FPS, and don't like FPS play, and yet you're complaining that EVE doesn't have FPS features... Your little picture doesn't magically make my post off-topic, either.

The picture was saying you missed my point not that you are off topic. Again I'm talking about immersion. The lack of control hurts that. And for that reason alone its not the ultimate sci fi mmo. There is room for improvement.

 

[petteyg359]

No MMO has that level of immersion. You can't fly in an arbitrary pattern in the middle of space for no reason in EVE. But, neither can you dig an arbitrary tunnel under the road in any other MMO. So, being limited to two dimensions (forward and back, left and right) with direct control of your characters movement is somehow more immersive than having only acceleration control in three dimensions?

All MMOs click-to-auto-attack-until-you-click-something-else. The few that have the direct control you seem to want where every attack takes a mouse click and aiming aren't "massive".

The arbitrary limitations placed on movement among different MMOs are similar, so that is apparently not part of your definition of immersion. That leaves the one-click-per-one-attack part where the game does or doesn't "play itself for you".

So, by your first post:

MMOs are about immersion, and there is just something that pulls you out of that when the game plays itself for you.

If "one-click-per-one-attack" defines immersion, and MMOs are about immersion, then there are no MMOs.