Ivy Bridge Cheap TIM Between DIE and IHS.

[Methal]

Just been looking into building a new computer. going mini ITX, and therefore Intel is really my only choice.

After watching that I about crapped myself.

40c cooler after this guy removed his IHS and replaced the TIM inside his i5 3750.

Did some more digging around and found that people are getting between 10c and 40c LOWER temps after doing this.

Shocked is the only thing I can say.

This alone is making me seriously consider building a slower amd mini itx gaming computer.

 

[Hicksimus]

I wouldn't base your buying decision on that. I could write a wall of text about why my new 3570K destroys my previous FX-6100, 1045T, etc. and the thought of going back to them with gaming performance in mind just because the TIM isn't optimal seems silly.

It runs more games and almost all games much(MUCH) better.
It's about 1/2 of the power draw for my [email protected]
It's about 1/3 of the power draw for my [email protected](Yes, I get it's not the 8 core and I get that the Piledriver could be up to 15% better at the same speed in some cases)

Complaints? Yeah, it's not as good at recording a video with FRAPS as the other 2 processors mentioned.

The TIM thing hasn't bothered me....I hit 4.7GHz today with a $25 CPU cooler and have a bit more temp headroom. It just makes me wonder if it's really that bad, or if it mostly applies to people doing expensive cooling. Will your little build be using expensive cooling?

Keep in mind that I'm just throwing out info thinking that it may help you decide.

 

[Methal]

I wouldn't base your buying decision on that. I could write a wall of text about why my new 3570K destroys my previous FX-6100, 1045T, etc. and the thought of going back to them with gaming performance in mind just because the TIM isn't optimal seems silly.

It runs more games and almost all games much(MUCH) better.
It's about 1/2 of the power draw for my [email protected]
It's about 1/3 of the power draw for my [email protected](Yes, I get it's not the 8 core and I get that the Piledriver could be up to 15% better at the same speed in some cases)

Complaints? Yeah, it's not as good at recording a video with FRAPS as the other 2 processors mentioned.

The TIM thing hasn't bothered me....I hit 4.7GHz today with a $25 CPU cooler and have a bit more temp headroom. It just makes me wonder if it's really that bad, or if it mostly applies to people doing expensive cooling. Will your little build be using expensive cooling?

Keep in mind that I'm just throwing out info thinking that it may help you decide.

Considering that I am building this on an mitx platform i won't be doing any OCing. In that light what you say makes a lot of sense.

I will be getting the i5, but I'll most likely be removing the IHS completely and running it like an Apple chip. But i'll know better when I stick it under my h60.

 

[Mandrake4565]

Considering that I am building this on an mitx platform i won't be doing any OCing. In that light what you say makes a lot of sense.

I will be getting the i5, but I'll most likely be removing the IHS completely and running it like an Apple chip. But i'll know better when I stick it under my h60.

If you're not overclocking why take the risk?

 

[wingman99]

You will void your warranty and the CPU runs cooler when your not overclocking.

 

[ssjwizard]

Even with a smaller 92mm downward facing heatsink or god forbid the stock heatsink running stock speeds or even max turbo the CPU is not likely to have an issue. Yea the TIM is cheap and needlessly thick on ivy chips, but if your not overclocking that extra 10-20C means literally nothing, so why void your warranty over it.

 

[Methal]

The chip will last longer for one.

run cooler-10c not a big deal. 20c, meh, but 40c on an under volted chip running slower than stock speeds is a huge deal.

I'm not to concerned with voiding the warranty.

The fact that intel would do this just amazes me.

 

[EarthDog]

Chip will last until its too slow WITHOUT taking this unnecessary risk. No point at all for this application.

 

[Mandrake4565]

Chip will last until its too slow WITHOUT taking this unnecessary risk. No point at all for this application.

+1
Last longer at stock clocks, you planning on using this chip longer then 10-15 years? I still have my Pentium2 400 mhz chip,that runs still, from 97 you want that also?

 

[Methal]

You are all right of course...but in the same sense as saying "HP builds good enough computers"

I do have to say this though: Is this really OCF? Ya'll aren't getting too...for lack of better term, and with risk of offending...Too intel fanboi to understand just what you are saying right?...I hope?

Intel just kinda **** on your faces, with this quite literally cheap garbage goo they pasted INSIDE! the chip! you CAN"T remove it without voiding your warranty, AND it makes the chip for any true over clocker UN OVERCLOCKABLE! (grammar I know...I know..)

I haven't bought an AMD chip since well before the Q6600.

I am SERIOUSLY considering going with the 5800k FM2 chip for this mitx build right now. Like looking at how well it will play GW2 with a 7870.

The only reason I bring this up is this is OCF! its always been a guarantee that when I come here looking for advice on something I get the best. Not the "its good enough" crap a salesman would try to feed me.

Sure I dont PLAN on OCing this chip, not NOW anyway, but I sure as hell don't want to have GUT the thing to get some decent speeds out of it, lathing it is one thing, but cutting it up to get the Colgate toothpaste goo out of it is another thing.

95c UNDER VOLTED folks. thats HUGE! and its NOT just one guy, its all over the internet.

I'm shocked that this forum hasn't been blown up by the people modding their IVY cores with pictures, and how-to's

anyway rant over.

Mini ITX gaming computer is a freaking cool idea =D Heat is a huge concern. Now I gotta figure out what kind of performance difference i'll see with an AMD FM2 5800k and an I5 3750k.

EDIT:

Sorry for being so blunt.

also here is the data:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/675?vs=701

all I have to say is oh god...its painful. I can't do the AMD....WAY behind in EVERYTHING!

 

[EarthDog]

Unoverclockable... so not true. I havent touched any of my IB CPU's IHS/TIM and one is sitting at 4.5GHz happily (will do a lot more), and the other I can bench on custom water to above 5GHz.

95C undevolted is likely not a proper mount or TIM application. They dont remotely run that hot, especially undervolted. People have posted pictures of it, but its just not worth it to a lot of people.

We give the information, YOU make decision, OCF.com or stockpc.com... doesnt matter. You are getting the best advice by telling you the WHOLE picture. Sorry it wasnt what you wanted to hear, but it is the truth. What you do with it, is up to you.

 

[Woomack]

In most cases lower temp on water/air cooling doesn't mean much higher overclock for these cpus. Usually it's no more than 100MHz difference after de-lidding so about the same as difference between cheap and high end Z77 board.
Other thing that some already checked is that main issue is gap between IHS and core , not TIM. Intel's TIM is actually not that bad. Maybe nothing special but also not cheapest available.

Next thing that maybe someone noticed. There is 30*C+ difference between cores on that movie what means that there is or bad cooler mount, not enough or too much TIM or just defective cpu. These temps should be up to ~10*C difference.

 

[MattNo5ss]

If heat is your concern, then you want to go with the Ivy Bridge CPU. It puts out less heat than other CPUs available. You have to remember that core temperature does not equal heat.

For example, if you have two chips, one 10mm^2 and one 20mm^2, and they are both producing 80W of heat, then the temperatures of the 10mm^2 chip will be higher than the 20mm^2, but the heat output will be the same. You can look at it the other way too, if you have the 10mm^2 and 20mm^2 chips at the same temperature, then that means the larger chip has more heat.

So, the TIM issue is making core temps higher, but it's not causing the chip to output more heat.

 

[Hicksimus]

I've spent the last 5 years building almost exclusively AMD for myself and my family just because I had a boss who was a real Intel fanboy. Telling customers things like "I won't sell AMD because they can light on fire, Intel have protection to stop that". I'm not a fan of the IHS TIM change over to paste but you are making a big deal out of a small fault.

Perhaps you missed how AMD handled bulldozer. Intel's crappy TIM has nothing on the lies and the terrible product that bulldozer was. Imagine it this way. Intel is telling us the paste is amazing and that it will beat everything before it....now we see that was a lie and it's not great....so now Intel tells us that in a year or 2 it will cure and be at least good....except in a year or 2 it isn't. AMD just did that...but with processors instead of a minor detail such as TIM.

At the moment AMD processors fit a few niche uses, they aren't at an attractive price point for the most part and they are especially not suited for use by major gamers.
Want to play a few games that aren't particularly CPU dependent or that can make good use of 4-8 cores? Sure, go AMD...it'll still draw more power but whatever.
Want to play a ton of games ranging from old to new and poorly made to well made.....from heavily stressing 1 core to heavily stressing as many as you have? Intel all the way. My 3570k has a little more than doubled my FPS in Planetside 2 while drawing much less power than my 1045T and FX-6100 for example. It's the difference between unplayable and buttery smooth. I can get past the cheap IHS TIM because for $20 less than a Sabretooth+8350 I got a machine that smokes it in terms of what they offer a serious gamer. It draws much less power and it offers a uniform gaming experience that AMD cannot offer you. Choosing the lesser product just because of some thermal paste is your choice, but I think most rational people would just let it go. Edit: what I mean is that if you are in this group(playing many different games) then the right choice is Intel....it's up to you to check into what you play and how it will respond to the significantly lesser performance per core that AMD offer.

 

[wagex]

I do have to say this though: Is this really OCF? Ya'll aren't getting too...for lack of better term, and with risk of offending...Too intel fanboi to understand just what you are saying right?...I hope?

Intel just kinda **** on your faces, with this quite literally cheap garbage goo they pasted INSIDE! the chip! you CAN"T remove it without voiding your warranty, AND it makes the chip for any true over clocker UN OVERCLOCKABLE! (grammar I know...I know..)

i dont understand what being a fanboy has to do with trying to warn you about doing something that is such a risk to ruining your chip for absolutely no gains. cpu's will last a long time, for instance up until about 2-3 years ago i was running a 133mhz intel chip for a teamspeak server, which had been used for server duty in a bank for probably 10+ years before that. i just tossed it because i had got a replacement that could do alot more. like ED said the cpu will last longer than it usefulness.

risks? yea theres a few heres a few that might ween you.
1. just a little nick on the PCB cuts a trace = ruined cpu
2. razer slips chips the die = possible ruined cpu
3. you could cut your finger! lol

i wouldnt risk any of those for no return.

you might say lower cpu temp is a return, for what? these are safe to run up to 90c or 100 or what ever i dont remember but its well beyond what a cpu is goign to do on stock clocks or even overclocked to decent speeds. the 94c people are probably noobs who dont know how to mount a cooler.

I will be getting the i5, but I'll most likely be removing the IHS completely and running it like an Apple chip. But i'll know better when I stick it under my h60.

without the IHS there to protect it there is a chance you could crack the die on the cpu.

but in the end its up to you do what you will we can make up your mind for you, just figured id share some insight from my point of view. have what you will.

 

[hokiealumnus]

You are all right of course...but in the same sense as saying "HP builds good enough computers"

I do have to say this though: Is this really OCF? Ya'll aren't getting too...for lack of better term, and with risk of offending...Too intel fanboi to understand just what you are saying right?...I hope?

Intel just kinda **** on your faces, with this quite literally cheap garbage goo they pasted INSIDE! the chip! you CAN"T remove it without voiding your warranty, AND it makes the chip for any true over clocker UN OVERCLOCKABLE! (grammar I know...I know..)

I haven't bought an AMD chip since well before the Q6600.

I am SERIOUSLY considering going with the 5800k FM2 chip for this mitx build right now. Like looking at how well it will play GW2 with a 7870.

The only reason I bring this up is this is OCF! its always been a guarantee that when I come here looking for advice on something I get the best. Not the "its good enough" crap a salesman would try to feed me.

Sure I dont PLAN on OCing this chip, not NOW anyway, but I sure as hell don't want to have GUT the thing to get some decent speeds out of it, lathing it is one thing, but cutting it up to get the Colgate toothpaste goo out of it is another thing.

95c UNDER VOLTED folks. thats HUGE! and its NOT just one guy, its all over the internet.

I'm shocked that this forum hasn't been blown up by the people modding their IVY cores with pictures, and how-to's

We have been aware of and reported this two days after the ivy bridge launch. I believe we were the first large site to break the story actually. It is definitely all over the internet, including several posts here of people with huge temperature drops by replacing the TIM. Here's one, just a few threads below this thread. Here's another.

I think you need to read more before going on rants and accusing people who are trying to help you realize the inanity of de-lidding your prospective CPU when you're not going to overclock it of being fanboys.

 

[Methal]

We have been aware of and reported this two days after the ivy bridge launch. I believe we were the first large site to break the story actually. It is definitely all over the internet, including several posts here of people with huge temperature drops by replacing the TIM. Here's one, just a few threads below this thread. Here's another.

I think you need to read more before going on rants and accusing people who are trying to help you realize the inanity of de-lidding your prospective CPU when you're not going to overclock it of being fanboys.

You're right of course. I'm just surprised that no one has said "crack the lid off that thing!"

Of all the forums on the internet I think this is the only one with mature people left. Being surprised that you don't act like children is actually refreshing.

After looking at all the comparisons between 1155 and FM2....there really isn't a choice to be made for what I want the computer to do. the i5 destroys everything amd has to offer on a mitx scale.

Explaining how I feel about the ivy cores is difficult. I build my own rigs to avoid getting cheap components. Then to find out that one is unavoidably made cheaply and not having another option, irks my OCD self up one side and down the other. Chances are that I will eventually gut it are pretty much a guarantee, but that time will come long after i can replace the thing.

I do remember the bulldozer core. However I had already switched to Intel on almost all my computers and didn't really care much. I remember well the hype about how it was going to blow everything intel had out of the water. In fact I remember seeing that it performed on the same level as the phenom 1060T.

irritated that intel dropped the 1366 for ANOTHER socket I almost bought one, then I saw the 2700k and changed my mind =)

anyway. Your advice is greatly appreciated =)

 

[Knufire]

There's a few threads about delidding IB CPUs here. Running direct die contact is pretty risky, most replace the TIM underneath the IHS with Coollaborotory Liquid Pro. Average gains seem to be 10-15C, I think?

It's just a risky process where sometimes, the risks don't outweigh the benefits. Intel did this because they can afford to on these CPUs, 77W of heat and that's including the iGPU, so you're looking at under 70W of heat at stock settings. My OCed 920 is probably double that.

 

[EarthDog]

Explaining how I feel about the ivy cores is difficult. I build my own rigs to avoid getting cheap components. Then to find out that one is unavoidably made cheaply and not having another option, irks my OCD self up one side and down the other. Chances are that I will eventually gut it are pretty much a guarantee, but that time will come long after i can replace the thing.

Things can be made 'cheaply' and still be very effective, and have a long lifespan. As I mentioned before, and more examples are a thread away here there and everywhere, I can overclock, I can overclock to 'normal' levels (4.5GHz+) and then some with this 'cheaply' made processor. So to me, and I think Im OCD on a few things too, the fact that it works just fine with the cheap TIM and w/e else may plague these processors are simply a non issue, to me. Can it better? Sure it could. But as was talked about a couple of times in this thread, the risk of doing this activity, vs its actual yields (thing is, you may be voltage limited and not temperature, it depends on the CPU), tends to put a lot of people off considering it works juuuuuuust fine without hacking at it. Honestly, I dont EVER reccommened this to anyone outside of the benching team. Just not worth it in a lot of cases.

Good luck!

 

[glc24]

Things can be made 'cheaply' and still be very effective, and have a long lifespan. As I mentioned before, and more examples are a thread away here there and everywhere, I can overclock, I can overclock to 'normal' levels (4.5GHz+) and then some with this 'cheaply' made processor. So to me, and I think Im OCD on a few things too, the fact that it works just fine with the cheap TIM and w/e else may plague these processors are simply a non issue, to me. Can it better? Sure it could. But as was talked about a couple of times in this thread, the risk of doing this activity, vs its actual yields (thing is, you may be voltage limited and not temperature, it depends on the CPU), tends to put a lot of people off considering it works juuuuuuust fine without hacking at it. Honestly, I dont EVER reccommened this to anyone outside of the benching team. Just not worth it in a lot of cases.

Good luck!

I agree.
How often are the processors at 100%,and when they are for how long? As mentioned,unless you're stressing constantly,there really isn't much benefit from delidding.I don't think the oc'ed lifespan of a "stock" Ivy is going to be any different than previous Intel processors. At least I wouldn't think so. If I can get my 3770K to last me 3 or 4 years the way it is right now,I'll be a happy camper. My other oc'ed processors lasted that long. On Prime for 12 hours, the highest temp on core 1 was 87C. I think that's pretty good considering. So under "normal" stressing,I'm fairly certain my processor will never see that.

Greg