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Waterblock Shootout, part deux
- Thread starter NeoMoses
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- Thread Starter
- #63
OK people, I'll agree with you on a few points. I have no grudges against Bill. Bill may be a good tester. He has some very good equipment, and seems to have very good techniques. That's where my agreement ends.
Bill is not the only person in the world who can sufficiently test these blocks.
Yes, it's true, some other person/lab/institution may be qualified. I would venture to say that I'm one of those people. No, I don't have the equipment that Bill does, but I do have the knowledge, skill, and experience necessary. I have worked as a test engineer for years, and I know exactly what it takes to eliminate as many variables as possible to get valuable results from a test. Testing/Validating an automoblile is infinitely more complicated than testing waterblocks. There are many, many more variables in automobiles than in waterblocks. If I can succesfully test/validate cars, waterblocks will not be a challenge.
For this test, Bill's equipment may give very good empirical results. However, when doing A-B-C... comparisons, ultra accurate equipment is not always needed. A good control of all the necessary variables is needed, and also a good test procedure needs to be followed with all specimens. By doing this, it will be possible to rank the waterblocks, even though the temperatures/performances may not match the values you get on your particular system.
If I do decide to conduct this test, I will not publish the data obtained from my block. I will use it only for my own good. That way I will have no personal interest on the outcome of the test.
Bill is not the only person in the world who can sufficiently test these blocks.
Yes, it's true, some other person/lab/institution may be qualified. I would venture to say that I'm one of those people. No, I don't have the equipment that Bill does, but I do have the knowledge, skill, and experience necessary. I have worked as a test engineer for years, and I know exactly what it takes to eliminate as many variables as possible to get valuable results from a test. Testing/Validating an automoblile is infinitely more complicated than testing waterblocks. There are many, many more variables in automobiles than in waterblocks. If I can succesfully test/validate cars, waterblocks will not be a challenge.
For this test, Bill's equipment may give very good empirical results. However, when doing A-B-C... comparisons, ultra accurate equipment is not always needed. A good control of all the necessary variables is needed, and also a good test procedure needs to be followed with all specimens. By doing this, it will be possible to rank the waterblocks, even though the temperatures/performances may not match the values you get on your particular system.
If I do decide to conduct this test, I will not publish the data obtained from my block. I will use it only for my own good. That way I will have no personal interest on the outcome of the test.
no i am not saying bill would be the person...
yes i like were you are going neomoses
and what would be the point of not adding yoru block? if it outperforms everything else i think someone else could test to make sure, not so that you look like your trying to make your stuff look good....
yes i like were you are going neomoses
and what would be the point of not adding yoru block? if it outperforms everything else i think someone else could test to make sure, not so that you look like your trying to make your stuff look good....
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2002
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
NeoMoses said:
So if I submitted the "White Water" for testing, which seems to be the one that everyone wants to "beat", including yourself, then you're saying you would not publish the results of a test of your block versus mine?
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of what you wanted to achieve as stated in the first post in this thread?
Since you have a vested interest, as stated by yourself, in achieving the goal of besting the "White Water", wouldn't that automatically disqualify you from conducting the tests, even if you didn't publish the results of your own block?
I'm sorry, but if you want to be truly impartial and above suspicion, you can't have a vested interest (whether private or public) in the ranking of the final contestants, and retain credibility. This has nothing to do with your personal honour, and everything to do with what the response will be of anyone who submits their blocks to you, no matter where they finally ranked.
I also think you're underestimating the difficulty of measuring waterblock performance.
I don't wish to stop you from trying, but an initial attitude of "How hard can it be?" to me describes someone who has no idea of what they're about to undertake, and this is coming from someone who has spent the last 9 months analysing water-block performance and still appreciates that he doesn't even come close to doing it properly.
- Joined
- May 11, 2002
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- Right near the Beach, FL
will there be a handicap for aluminum blocks?
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2002
Hi people.
I have no block to put in the challenge but I got an idea to get things going. It's worth what it's worth.
If BillA is interested in testing the blocks, why don't we ask him his price? He can say how much he wants to take for each block, with maybe a limit for the number of blocks, as long as it's at least 10 or so. It doesn't look like there'll be that many blocks anyway.
From there we can decide if the price is acceptable or if it's not. If it is, every person who wants to submit a block will pay that price. Simple as that. If it's not acceptable, we can cross out that possibility and think of an alternative without saying "it would be better if BillA did it" all of the time, as we will have discarded that possibility.
How's that?
I have no block to put in the challenge but I got an idea to get things going. It's worth what it's worth.
If BillA is interested in testing the blocks, why don't we ask him his price? He can say how much he wants to take for each block, with maybe a limit for the number of blocks, as long as it's at least 10 or so. It doesn't look like there'll be that many blocks anyway.
From there we can decide if the price is acceptable or if it's not. If it is, every person who wants to submit a block will pay that price. Simple as that. If it's not acceptable, we can cross out that possibility and think of an alternative without saying "it would be better if BillA did it" all of the time, as we will have discarded that possibility.
How's that?
NeoMoses said:
You're point comes across as, somewhat how Cathar put it: "How hard can it be", however this may just be because you are fed up with the thread and idea that ONLY Bill could do these tests.
Past that, I think this is a good idea, and I would definately like to just see how my block fares against the rest of the pack, on the same setup under the same conditions as the other blocks.
I hope you decide to do this.
Cathar said:
I understand youre point, however I still think that impartial results are possible and probable. I do not think the tester would skew the results in order to have one or more blocks perform better than yours Cathar. I would just be interested to see how my block fares against yours in the same system, even if it does not beat it out.
Of course it would be better to have someone entirely uninfluenced and uninterested conduct these tests, but Neo is the only one who 'may' be volunteering to do this, and we don't really have many other options....
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2001
- Location
- Milton Keynes, UK
ok, it seems this is going too far, and i am sorry if i miss some points but i have not kept up with the thred since i last posted because i needed sleep, i also dont have time to ready it all now because i have a concussion and sprained ankle.
remember last years roundup - http://www.overclockers.com/articles566/
why not the same as then, as we are simply seeing which is best we must, for price and time reasons say, 'best when used with ...' not simply best
IF bill (or anyone else with sufficant testing equipment - such as joe at procooling) can do the test, i am willing to let my waterblock be tested, but i would like to see the waterblock testing methodology subbmitted by people who want to test waterblocks before i can finnally agree to send my waterblock - this may sound stupid, but i am not sending a large chunk of copper accross the atalantic to be tested poorly
remember last years roundup - http://www.overclockers.com/articles566/
why not the same as then, as we are simply seeing which is best we must, for price and time reasons say, 'best when used with ...' not simply best
IF bill (or anyone else with sufficant testing equipment - such as joe at procooling) can do the test, i am willing to let my waterblock be tested, but i would like to see the waterblock testing methodology subbmitted by people who want to test waterblocks before i can finnally agree to send my waterblock - this may sound stupid, but i am not sending a large chunk of copper accross the atalantic to be tested poorly
As a test engineer then you must agree completely that uncalibrated and low resolution equipment is OKNeoMoses said:
for undergrad testing labs, but worthless in the real world. Nothing worth publishing ever comes out of
marginal equipment or uncalibrated test instruments.
Even the greatest engineer in the world is handicapped if he can't
get the right equipment.
IF you can get access to the right equipment with calibration
certificates, then go for it.
JFettig said:
all i can do is smile.-----anyhow, who said we had to do this major scientific publishable study of mass amounts of blocks? it looks like the first shootout was only 4 blocks.
I thought this was just going to be a comparision between blocks on the same system?
obviously you have to mount the blocks several times...etc, etc.... in order to minimize variables, but seriously, it just doesn't seem to practical (at this point) to be conducting a test down to the level of .1C accuracy......
- Thread Starter
- #73
Well at least this thread has been led astray. Rest assured, this testing will be accurate and reliable. The entire procedure will be documented for all to see. Even if it is not done on the world's greatest equipment, the results will be repeatable. We're not looking to publish this test or its results in any scientific journals, only to compare a given set of waterblocks to each other for the good of the overclocking community.
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NeoMoses said:
good, that's what I thought. And whoever enters their waterblock I'm sure will understand this and not expect anything more.
of course the better equipment is definately welcome...its just not necessary for this kind of comparison (notice - comparison and not testing )
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- Dec 30, 2000
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- New Jersey
ok, let's relax for a moment here and look at what we're talking about. We're testing waterblocks for fun. I'm sure Neomoses and MaskedGeek will do a good enough job testing on their own to give us a general idea of how everyone's block will perform. Let's start with that. If you are still unsatisfied, then perhaps BillA will agree to something, but lets not get crazy about it.
pHaestus said:
I'm not saying there shouldn't be a SET, AGREED upon procedure, I'm just saying make the BEST with what equipment is available, without spending hundreds or more on testing equipment. Of course you should ALWAYS do everything possible to ensure reliable results.....
...but there reaches a point of practicality here...
spending more money and taking the time to do tests like it would require to get more accurate results is of no use if the results are delayed so much that the next generation of processors/blocks are out, for example.....
but I am done with this point. It is definately better to do the test the right way. However that is simply not practical and furthermore, is not the wish of most of the intended participants
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2002
- Location
- Melbourne, Australia
Well I have just shipped my block off to the only person I trust, and that's BillA. He'll have it early next week. Quite frankly I can't afford to be sending blocks off willy nilly to anyone who asks for one without payment. Sending that one block to BillA just ate away what little was left of my profit margin for getting 50 blocks made. Basically the 50 blocks I've made up have been done for free with respect to my time, which amounts to about 45 minutes per block. This is not a whinge. Just a statement of fact. It costs money to send blocks for testing.
I suggest if anyone wishes to get their block tested next to mine by someone who can do it properly, that they contact Bill, ask him politely and make an arrangement with him, and do it quickly.
I suggest if anyone wishes to get their block tested next to mine by someone who can do it properly, that they contact Bill, ask him politely and make an arrangement with him, and do it quickly.
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