Z270 @ DDR3866 : F4-3200C14D-16GTZ vs F4-4266C19D-16GTZKW?

[jambazz]

This is probably my first post. And I am a newbie. The last time I overclocked my memory, was on my Winbond BH-5 kit, CL 5-5-5-1T, that **** was legendary.
Now I need to educate myself.

Guys, I just bought this set of b-die goodliness: F4-4266C19D-16GTZKW
I got this specific model instead of the F4-3200C14D-16GTZ because I thought I could resell the 4266 kit for a higher value, and from my understanding they are both the same samsung B-die, except the 4266 is obviously binned for higher stable speeds.

My hope was that I could use it in my Asus Prime Z270-A i 7700K Delidded watercooled setup, that is 24/7 4.9 Ghz @ 4.7 uncore

Prior to buying it, I had researched how fast RAM my Mobo should be able to support:

● According to ASUS QVL, the fastest 2x8GB kit is this model: G.SKILL F4-3733C17D-16GTZ 16GB(8GB*2) SS 17-19-19-39 1.35V. There is even a Quad kit rated at speed 3866 which is also supported: G.SKILL F4-3866C17D-8GTZ 8GB(4GB*2) SS 18-22-22-42 1.35V
● According to G.Skill, the fastest kit supported by my particular mobo is this kit: G.SKILL F4-3733C17D-16GTZKW 16GB (8GBx2) CL17-17-17-37 1.35 Volt
● Finally the latest revision of the BIOS gives me opportunity to choose 4266 as the fastest speed.

So I thought I could buy this 4266 dual kit and if I was lucky run it at the XMP, but at least I would be able to do some manual timings and run it at 3733. I was stupid, because this seems to be impossible. I cannot even stabilize it at 3600 16-16-16-36 1.43V 1.35 SA and 1.25 SA.

So here are my questions. Would I have a better shot at getting 3733/3866 speeds with the legendary F4-3200C14D-16GTZ?
Is even obtaining these kind of speeds a given on my particular system? If not, is it the CPU bin lottery holding me back or the Motherboard or a combination, or my BIOS settings?

Finally, and perhaps most importantly: If I wanted to pay the price of a whole new rig, what mobo, and memory should I choose for the :
I9 9900K
I8 8700K
granted that I wanted the maximum speed out of this 4266 Mhz kit?

If anybody is curious why I need the speeds, its because I play a game, PUBG, that when run in low graphic settings, seem to rely on IMC performance in order to impact especially 0.1 and 1% FPS. (i'm using a rtx2080ti @ 1440p very low settings, aiming for highest possible FPS)

Cheers!

 

[Johan45]

Well your thinking is correct, most of the mid tier boards of that era topped out in the 36-3800 range for memory. I'm not certain any kit is going to help much of that also depends on the CPU/IMC could be that simple.
First if you can run the CPU faster it will improve FPS most likely more that faster RAM, if you're at your limit then try for faster speeds at a higher CL like 3600 CL 17-18-18-38-56 1.35V that's taken right from a 3600 kit that I have.

As for the last question, from my limited knowledge of PUBG it's quad+HT limited meaning more cores won't help. I have also heard there's a 144 FPS cap but these things I don't know for sure.
Last if you went from the Prime to something like an APEX you would stand a much better chance of using the 4266 RAM at rated speed/timings and that's much cheaper than buying a full system but that still deoends on your CPU.
Last with the 2080Ti why is such a high frame rate that important it should be able to push 1440 with high/ultra settings and still give a high frame rate or are you running 144Hz?

 

[EarthDog]

I run a 2080ti and pubg. I have a few settings turned down, but mostly float from 120-144 fps (my monitor hz). I'm also running x299 and quad channel 3600 mhz ram.

EDIT: You don't benefit from more cores: https://www.techspot.com/article/1532-pubg-cpu-benchmarks/

 

[jambazz]

Well your thinking is correct, most of the mid tier boards of that era topped out in the 36-3800 range for memory. I'm not certain any kit is going to help much of that also depends on the CPU/IMC could be that simple.
First if you can run the CPU faster it will improve FPS most likely more that faster RAM, if you're at your limit then try for faster speeds at a higher CL like 3600 CL 17-18-18-38-56 1.35V that's taken right from a 3600 kit that I have.

As for the last question, from my limited knowledge of PUBG it's quad+HT limited meaning more cores won't help. I have also heard there's a 144 FPS cap but these things I don't know for sure.
Last if you went from the Prime to something like an APEX you would stand a much better chance of using the 4266 RAM at rated speed/timings and that's much cheaper than buying a full system but that still deoends on your CPU.
Last with the 2080Ti why is such a high frame rate that important it should be able to push 1440 with high/ultra settings and still give a high frame rate or are you running 144Hz?

I'll try with looser timings, but I don't fully understand why the board has 3733 b-die on qvl and I cannot get it to boot at that speed. Should I have bought the exact 3733 pair and run at Xmp and everything would have worked out the box?

With regards to pubg, I play at 160 Hz, and my goal is to have a higher 1% than now (100 fps) I average about 160 fps.

 

[Johan45]

I would have to test it but I still think CPU would give more than RAM, did you OC the card?

 

[jfriend00]

I'll try with looser timings, but I don't fully understand why the board has 3733 b-die on qvl and I cannot get it to boot at that speed. Should I have bought the exact 3733 pair and run at Xmp and everything would have worked out the box?

With regards to pubg, I play at 160 Hz, and my goal is to have a higher 1% than now (100 fps) I average about 160 fps.

Your sticks will likely run at 3733, but they need appropriate timings to make things work. Without an XMP profile for that speed, you have to guess on the appropriate primaries and the motherboard has to get the rest of the timings right. With appropriate tweaking, it would likely run just fine.

With 3733 XMP, it would probably run right out of the box. I have a G.SKill 3733 set and it ran for me at XMP. I was able to overclock it to both 4000 and 4133, but it took a lot of tweaking to get to 4133. If you want help getting it to run at 3733 and can tell us what you've tried at that speed and show us your timings (screenshot of ASRock Timing Configurator) for any configuration around that speed that runs, we can probably make some suggestions for what timings to use.

 

[jambazz]

Your sticks will likely run at 3733, but they need appropriate timings to make things work. Without an XMP profile for that speed, you have to guess on the appropriate primaries and the motherboard has to get the rest of the timings right. With appropriate tweaking, it would likely run just fine.

With 3733 XMP, it would probably run right out of the box. I have a G.SKill 3733 set and it ran for me at XMP. I was able to overclock it to both 4000 and 4133, but it took a lot of tweaking to get to 4133. If you want help getting it to run at 3733 and can tell us what you've tried at that speed and show us your timings (screenshot of ASRock Timing Configurator) for any configuration around that speed that runs, we can probably make some suggestions for what timings to use.

Thank you so much jFriend!
3733 On an Asus Prime z270-a though, or on your z390 Taichi?

What I did was copy the primary timings and secondary timings shown in woomacks screenshots of the 4266s XMP profile, and then I just chose a lower speed, 3733 in the bios. I imagine that If the set had any shot at doing 3733 on my system it would be possible with the loose timings of the higher frequency configuration, but at a lower speed.
Do you have the original secondary and tertiary timings for the 3733s xmp/working profile per chance?
Also I've disabled my CPU oc and under clocked uncore to 40x, as I've noticed the uncore is automatically set to 41x max when applying xmp with this set.

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I would have to test it but I still think CPU would give more than RAM, did you OC the card?

Just forget about pubg but thanks

 

[jfriend00]

Thank you so much jFriend!
3733 On an Asus Prime z270-a though, or on your z390 Taichi?

What I did was copy the primary timings and secondary timings shown in woomacks screenshots of the 4266s XMP profile, and then I just chose a lower speed, 3733 in the bios. I imagine that If the set had any shot at doing 3733 on my system it would be possible with the loose timings of the higher frequency configuration, but at a lower speed.
Do you have the original secondary and tertiary timings for the 3733s xmp/working profile per chance?
Also I've disabled my CPU oc and under clocked uncore to 40x, as I've noticed the uncore is automatically set to 41x max when applying xmp with this set.

3733 is not a difficult speed for modern motherboards. It should work with yours just fine. I would certainly NOT use 4266 secondary and tertiary timings at 3733. Life is not that simple with all those secondaries and tertiaries and, in fact, some of those may be specific to a given system, not just the memory.

My general process would be to set the DRAM voltage to 1.40V (probably more than is needed, but better to start with a bit too much than too little), set VCCIO to 1.25V, then set primaries to 17-17-17-37 and leave everything else in auto for the motherboard to pick for you.

I'm suggesting CAS of 17@3733 for two reasons. First, my b-die has an XMP profile for 17-17-17-37 and it works at that. Second, The 3733 equivalent of 4266/19 is 3733/17 so the 4266/19 XMP profile is representing that it should be able to handle the latency of 3733/17.

If that doesn't work, I'd like to see a screenshot of what timings your motherboard is picking on auto to see if anything looks out of whack. Sometimes, you can get that from the BIOS, even if it didn't boot (at least I can on my ASRock). Keep in mind that the initial training to find a bunch of timings that work might take several boots so if it doesn't boot the first time, try several more times.

 

[Johan45]

You need to keep in mind that z270/7700k are very different in memory capabilities than z390/9700k. It's not impossible to get higher but IMO the motherboard is holing him back. When I had the maximus hero I was limited to about 3800 and it's a better mobo than the prime. I upgraded to the Max IX Apex and I was able to run my 4266 at XMP without issue. I upgraded because benchmarks are important to my hobby and every point makes a difference. If I were just using the PC for gaming it would have been a waste of money IMO, sure I sold the Hero but I was still out of pocket just for the sake of running higher speed RAM.

 

[jambazz]

3733 is not a difficult speed for modern motherboards. It should work with yours just fine. I would certainly NOT use 4266 secondary and tertiary timings at 3733. Life is not that simple with all those secondaries and tertiaries and, in fact, some of those may be specific to a given system, not just the memory.

My general process would be to set the DRAM voltage to 1.40V (probably more than is needed, but better to start with a bit too much than too little), set VCCIO to 1.25V, then set primaries to 17-17-17-37 and leave everything else in auto for the motherboard to pick for you.

I'm suggesting CAS of 17@3733 for two reasons. First, my b-die has an XMP profile for 17-17-17-37 and it works at that. Second, The 3733 equivalent of 4266/19 is 3733/17 so the 4266/19 XMP profile is representing that it should be able to handle the latency of 3733/17.

If that doesn't work, I'd like to see a screenshot of what timings your motherboard is picking on auto to see if anything looks out of whack. Sometimes, you can get that from the BIOS, even if it didn't boot (at least I can on my ASRock). Keep in mind that the initial training to find a bunch of timings that work might take several boots so if it doesn't boot the first time, try several more times.

Okay so I'm learning 2 things from reading this that I will try out.
1. When you say train the memory, I have not done that! When it does not post, I press the MemOk! Button on the mobo, and it loads up with the oc bios settings but running at 2133 safe speed. Sometimes when it does not post the bios led will either be green, orange or fed, but I have not thought about this. Symptoms are otherwise always the same, no post and monitor goes black.

2. When I could not make 3600 or 3733 stable I was at 19191939, so I will try 17171737.
My volt is 1.43 and SA is 1.384, vccio is 1.25

I'm rock steady at 3466 15-15-15-352T btw

Excited to test out the new things, thank you jfriend!

 

[jambazz]

Yahooo!! I'm now steady @ 3866 17-17-17-37-2CR-AUTO (automatic secondary/tertiary timings)
I "trained" my memory with great effect, without any instructions on how to do it (the ones in the mobo manual was not corresponding to what I was experiencing)
This is how I trained it:

1. OC memory: No Post
2. Wait for the LED code on the motherboard to stabilize, usually nothing but the green Power LED, or green plus a combination of orange (DDR) and red (CPU) switching intermittently every other 20 seconds or so. Perhaps sometimes green and a constant orange.
3. Press the "MemOk" button on the mobo
4. When the system reboots, I have to enter BIOS, where nothing is changed but the DDR effective rate is 2133(1066)
5. F10 to save and exit
6. Boot to Windows, cpu-z correctly shows 2133(1066)
7. Shutdown
(7.a) Pull out power plug from PSU, then press PowerOn button on mobo/case
8. Boot to windows (Windows now correctly shows the wanted overclock!)

(7.a possibly is not needed, but perhaps it does actually help.)

Next steps would be for me to see if I can go even higher than 3866 (maximum officially supported by QVL)
and ultimately to lower my vDimm 1.45, VCSSA 1.384, VCCIO 1.25

Thanks a bunch everybody for helping me, I will post screenshots.

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Yahooo!! I'm now steady @ 3866 17-17-17-37-2CR-AUTO (automatic secondary/tertiary timings)
I "trained" my memory with great effect, without any instructions on how to do it (the ones in the mobo manual was not corresponding to what I was experiencing)
This is how I trained it:

1. OC memory: No Post
2. Wait for the LED code on the motherboard to stabilize, usually nothing but the green Power LED, or green plus a combination of orange (DDR) and red (CPU) switching intermittently every other 20 seconds or so. Perhaps sometimes green and a constant orange.
3. Press the "MemOk" button on the mobo
4. When the system reboots, I have to enter BIOS, where nothing is changed but the DDR effective rate is 2133(1066)
5. F10 to save and exit
6. Boot to Windows, cpu-z correctly shows 2133(1066)
7. Shutdown
(7.a) Pull out power plug from PSU, then press PowerOn button on mobo/case
8. Boot to windows (Windows now correctly shows the wanted overclock!)

(7.a possibly is not needed, but perhaps it does actually help.)

Next steps would be for me to see if I can go even higher than 3866 (maximum officially supported by QVL)
and ultimately to lower my vDimm 1.45, VCSSA 1.384, VCCIO 1.25

Thanks a bunch everybody for helping me, I will post screenshots.

I forgot to mention, major reason I had a breakthrough as well, is that I changed from using dimm slot A1 + B1, to using A2 + B2! (farthest away dual channel configuration from CPU)
Also, I can boot 3866 16-16-16-36-AUTO, but is not stable.

 

[Johan45]

I think it has more to do with using the proper slots than you think

 

[jfriend00]

I forgot to mention, major reason I had a breakthrough as well, is that I changed from using dimm slot A1 + B1, to using A2 + B2! (farthest away dual channel configuration from CPU)
Also, I can boot 3866 16-16-16-36-AUTO, but is not stable.

This screenshot is taken right from the quick start guide for your motherboard. The correct slots are required so that's probably what was holding you back before.

 

[jambazz]

I think it has more to do with using the proper slots than you think

This screenshot is taken right from the quick start guide for your motherboard. The correct slots are required so that's probably what was holding you back before.

View attachment 204198

Yes, you are both right, but I could not simply set the speed to the desired and supported 3866 speed without the entire "memory training" sequence. I still do not understand how that works.

 

[jfriend00]

Yes, you are both right, but I could not simply set the speed to the desired and supported 3866 speed without the entire "memory training" sequence. I still do not understand how that works.

I'm not sure what your remaining question is here. Memory training is the process by which the BIOS guesses what dozens of memory timing settings should be. Using internal logic, it looks at what is known about the frequency you're trying to run at and then tries to calculate and guess what other memory timings would work with that. It then attempts to boot with those settings and use them. If they work and memory seems functional to the boot loader, you're good to go. If they don't work, then it tries something else (all under automated control). This can cause the PC to take a while to appear to do anything or it can even cause it to visibly restart itself several times.

An XMP profile for memory sticks that are rated at a specific speed, give it a start at the desired memory timings for that speed. Of the more than 40 settings need to properly control memory timings, an XMP profile will typically contain 8-10 of those timings and the BIOS still has to figure out all the rest. If you're attempting to use a speed that you don't have an XMP profile for, then it has even more things to try to figure out.