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Another day, another instance of AMD screwing the pooch by clinging to HBM.
- Thread starter Vishera
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- Jul 17, 2003
When shopping for high end cards, I use a comlex mixture of energy use, which relates to heat, power supply requirements, noise and energy costs. I also look at overall performance in the areas that I'm interested in as it relates to energy consumption. Finally I add in the cost of buying the card while still comparing energy, heat, noise, performance and slot design. Oh, and I look at brand name as I've been burned more than once by a manufacture or two in the past.
Power consumption is important to me. 1) It can act as a shortcut for power supply requirements, heat generation and thus sound levels. 2) As a 24/7 folding at home user, energy cost does add up.
I don't know anything about the memory type that you've referenced but I do know that AMD is not as good as Nvidia in folding and other things so perhaps it has value in a place I don't see.
Power consumption is important to me. 1) It can act as a shortcut for power supply requirements, heat generation and thus sound levels. 2) As a 24/7 folding at home user, energy cost does add up.
I don't know anything about the memory type that you've referenced but I do know that AMD is not as good as Nvidia in folding and other things so perhaps it has value in a place I don't see.
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- Jan 14, 2011
i read this as Grindelwald lmao! Imagine my confusion.
OP
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- Jul 7, 2013
- Thread Starter
- #44
The impression I get from Huang's statement is that he's...well, scared.
If the rumors about AMD taking a $50 loss per card are true, that shows him they're willing to burn money to stay relevant. And they're not exactly hurting for that at the moment. ThreadRipper, Epyc, and Ryzen are all gaining plenty of traction. And that's only going to continue snowballing. Sure, $50 a card is nothing to sneeze at, but these cards won't be out until February, and we're expect Navi, what, second half of this year? AMD won't sell very many of these cards, because the high end market is actually relatively small, and Nvidia does have more attractive options.
If the 11-series didn't exist before Radeon 7's release, I would almost guarantee it does now. And we'll likely be seeing it sooner, rather than later. A 2080 without Ray Tracing could easily be priced lower than Radeon 7, especially since it would use GDDR6. Jensen's pissed because he wasn't expecting AMD to be able to push the Tropical Islands core any further, with how it fell short in the form of Vega 56/64. Let's be honest; Nvidia pretty much took care of first generation Vega with the 1070Ti. Vega ran hotter, louder, drew more power, and wasn't priced competitively enough. 64 fell short of the 1080 in enough titles to matter, and 56 just barely matched even with the 1070.
So Jensen thought AMD wouldn't have a high end card this generation, and now they're (presumably) pulling MI60 GPUs off the professional line, cutting them down a bit, and shipping them out as Radeon 7. Just to be able to keep up. The only reason they put RTX into this generation of cards, was because they needed to do something. People were getting antsy, Nvidia hadn't released new GPUs for two years. So they probably pushed the project out a little earlier than they planned to (my guess is RTX wasn't planned to be released until next year or the year after), glued to a GPU core that basically equated to a Pascal die shrink with slightly better performance. This half-baked new release was okay, because "AMD wasn't going to have anything major". Oh, how wrong you were, Mr. Huang.
Something I'm curious about is this: What exactly are we gonna see from the new core they're building for Navi and onwards, at the high end? Navi isn't supposed to be anything past the midrange, think 2050/2060/RX 590 replacement, but what about future releases beyond that?
If the rumors about AMD taking a $50 loss per card are true, that shows him they're willing to burn money to stay relevant. And they're not exactly hurting for that at the moment. ThreadRipper, Epyc, and Ryzen are all gaining plenty of traction. And that's only going to continue snowballing. Sure, $50 a card is nothing to sneeze at, but these cards won't be out until February, and we're expect Navi, what, second half of this year? AMD won't sell very many of these cards, because the high end market is actually relatively small, and Nvidia does have more attractive options.
If the 11-series didn't exist before Radeon 7's release, I would almost guarantee it does now. And we'll likely be seeing it sooner, rather than later. A 2080 without Ray Tracing could easily be priced lower than Radeon 7, especially since it would use GDDR6. Jensen's pissed because he wasn't expecting AMD to be able to push the Tropical Islands core any further, with how it fell short in the form of Vega 56/64. Let's be honest; Nvidia pretty much took care of first generation Vega with the 1070Ti. Vega ran hotter, louder, drew more power, and wasn't priced competitively enough. 64 fell short of the 1080 in enough titles to matter, and 56 just barely matched even with the 1070.
So Jensen thought AMD wouldn't have a high end card this generation, and now they're (presumably) pulling MI60 GPUs off the professional line, cutting them down a bit, and shipping them out as Radeon 7. Just to be able to keep up. The only reason they put RTX into this generation of cards, was because they needed to do something. People were getting antsy, Nvidia hadn't released new GPUs for two years. So they probably pushed the project out a little earlier than they planned to (my guess is RTX wasn't planned to be released until next year or the year after), glued to a GPU core that basically equated to a Pascal die shrink with slightly better performance. This half-baked new release was okay, because "AMD wasn't going to have anything major". Oh, how wrong you were, Mr. Huang.
Something I'm curious about is this: What exactly are we gonna see from the new core they're building for Navi and onwards, at the high end? Navi isn't supposed to be anything past the midrange, think 2050/2060/RX 590 replacement, but what about future releases beyond that?
Alaric
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That was my impression. Let's take a look at some of Huang's "accomplishments".
Pascal was a big win no matter how you slice it. Great cards, mostly. The 3 GB 1060 shenanigans and the wretched 1030 should never have seen the light of day (970 vram PR fiasco, anyone?) but overall a strong line up. Pascal sold me on my first ever Team Green card and it's a monster in it's class. In the Blender benchmark it's competing with 1080s (and beating them). So, Huang 1, critics 0.
Next up we have AMD's low end cards dominating the mining upswing, not Huang's fault because it was an architecture difference, but AMD rules the mining end of bang per buck and it happened on his watch. The Captain doesn't steer the ship personally but it' s his responsibility when it hits a rock. so, 1-1.
Then his complete mishandling of the aforementioned mining boom, to the point that a frivolous lawsuit has been filed against nVidia. Hmm. 1-2
RTX. Mixed bag there, but "it just works" was so far off the mark it became a meme, "it's just broken" would have been more accurate at release. 1-3
More RTX-Game compliance promised and so far except for one title, it ranks up there with his mining..."optimism". 1-4. Wow.
More RTX-Pricing/performance wasn't there for what was supposed to be some big sellers, the 2070 and 2080. Those cards probably sold more used Pascals than they did 2070/80s. I'll be nice about the 2080 Ti because it is the fastest card available. For $1200-$1500+ dollars. If you want the best 4k, single card solution that's it. If you're not running at 4k then a used Titan or 1080 Ti makes more sense in almost every way. The driver debacle didn't help consumer confidence much, either. Normally not that big a deal but he was already on a downhill roll. Yikes, 1-5.
Last RTX-the 2060 I'll score neutral. He probably should have opened with it, because it delivers on all fronts-except actual RTX. Unless you want to run minecraft settings. And it showed up 5 months after the Wonders Of RTX? So still 1-5
Now he goes out in public and sounds (and acts) like the worst kind of fanboy. 1-6. He's turning in to a serious loser.
Maybe he's not scared of AMD. Maybe he was just butt hurt that RTX didn't get him the keynote speaker gig. Or maybe he is scared...of nVidia's next board meeting.
Or he's just a jerk and it will all blow over. LOL
OP
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- Jul 7, 2013
- Thread Starter
- #46
And he could've capitalized on the mining craze as much as AMD did if he'd gotten his head out of his *** and started looking into asynchronous compute optimization before Turing. I've heard that Turing actually does have AC performance much greater than all previous generations, but by how much, I'm not sure. I'll have to look into that and report back with some ninja edits.
But AMD started prioritizing AC in, what, 2012? 2013? So he had 5 or 6 years to think "Hmm, maybe it's something worth looking into". If Nvidia had put some semblance of focus on AC in the 900 series, improved it in Pascal, and improved it again in Turing, AMD would've long since lost, or never gained to begin with, their DX12 advantage.
But AMD started prioritizing AC in, what, 2012? 2013? So he had 5 or 6 years to think "Hmm, maybe it's something worth looking into". If Nvidia had put some semblance of focus on AC in the 900 series, improved it in Pascal, and improved it again in Turing, AMD would've long since lost, or never gained to begin with, their DX12 advantage.
Lol, I assure you NVIDIA isnt scared of AMD and their GPU division. I'll give Huang some credit and say hes not a petulant child, but a CEO of a multi billion dollar company who sees little from the other side to be worried about. Nobody, including NV want AMD buried... that said his comments were hilarious to me.
Give RTX a chance.... we gave Vulkan a chance (I see similar endings here, lol). Its the price one pays for being first to bringing something to market (how do devs support RT without a card in the market???). Also, outside of BF V and SOTR, no RT games were supposed to be out in 2018. SOTR RT was delayed for w/e reason. Anyway, here is a list...https://www.kitguru.net/components/...rt-nvidias-ray-tracing-and-dlss-rtx-features/
If used is acceptable it makes sense to get a 1080ti over a 2080 perhaps. That said, most buy new and with the way prices are now on 10 series, one really needs to look to see what is a better deal. IIRC, 1080ti and 2080ti are priced incredibly similar at newegg due to lack of stock...its been this way since before xmas.
How you can count a self described frivolous lawsuit against them is curious (and shows which way your bias leans)...
Just a bit more persepctive here.
Give RTX a chance.... we gave Vulkan a chance (I see similar endings here, lol). Its the price one pays for being first to bringing something to market (how do devs support RT without a card in the market???). Also, outside of BF V and SOTR, no RT games were supposed to be out in 2018. SOTR RT was delayed for w/e reason. Anyway, here is a list...https://www.kitguru.net/components/...rt-nvidias-ray-tracing-and-dlss-rtx-features/
If used is acceptable it makes sense to get a 1080ti over a 2080 perhaps. That said, most buy new and with the way prices are now on 10 series, one really needs to look to see what is a better deal. IIRC, 1080ti and 2080ti are priced incredibly similar at newegg due to lack of stock...its been this way since before xmas.
How you can count a self described frivolous lawsuit against them is curious (and shows which way your bias leans)...
Just a bit more persepctive here.
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- Mar 7, 2008
I think the reported comments were off the cuff remarks that have been blown way out of proportion. Maybe not the wisest or best presentation a CEO can give, but doesn't really change anything.
I see elsewhere the Ryan Smith, who originally posted that the VII would have full FP performance, has commented on the report saying otherwise. In short, he was told differently from his AMD contact, so we have uncertainty here depending on who at AMD is talking. We're not at the end of the road on that one yet as we await a definitive response either way.
I see elsewhere the Ryan Smith, who originally posted that the VII would have full FP performance, has commented on the report saying otherwise. In short, he was told differently from his AMD contact, so we have uncertainty here depending on who at AMD is talking. We're not at the end of the road on that one yet as we await a definitive response either way.
Alaric
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Lol, I assure you NVIDIA isnt scared of AMD and their GPU division. I'll give Huang some credit and say hes not a petulant child, but a CEO of a multi billion dollar company who sees little from the other side to be worried about. Nobody, including NV want AMD buried... that said his comments were hilarious to me.
Give RTX a chance.... we gave Vulkan a chance (I see similar endings here, lol). Its the price one pays for being first to bringing something to market (how do devs support RT without a card in the market???). Also, outside of BF V and SOTR, no RT games were supposed to be out in 2018. SOTR RT was delayed for w/e reason. Anyway, here is a list...https://www.kitguru.net/components/...rt-nvidias-ray-tracing-and-dlss-rtx-features/
If used is acceptable it makes sense to get a 1080ti over a 2080 perhaps. That said, most buy new and with the way prices are now on 10 series, one really needs to look to see what is a better deal. IIRC, 1080ti and 2080ti are priced incredibly similar at newegg due to lack of stock...its been this way since before xmas.
How you can count a self described frivolous lawsuit against them is curious (and shows which way your bias leans)...
Just a bit more persepctive here.
nVidia's (Huang's) issues are 99% PR. It isn't bias, the guy is a klutz in the public arena. And he has stepped on his corporate willy a couple times in the last two years. That isn't just my opinion, it's a relatively common view. Combined with just a couple missteps it makes him look bad, which makes nVidia look bad. The timing for them, much of which was out of his control, just made it worse. Being at fault and being responsible are two separate issues unless you're in charge. And I thought I had covered my thoughts on the likeliest scenario with the last sentence.
Alaric
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Back to Team Red. He asks a good question at the end: Would you pay $700 for RTX level performance from AMD? For my part, yeah, I would if I had it. And since 2080 prices on newegg go from $700 (only 3 cards that low) to an incredibly stupid $1188 (11 cards above $1000!), AMD should have a shot to steal some sales if they can keep the prices in line with the $700 mark.
And there may well be no partner cards for Radeon VII apparently. That should make controlling the price easy. LOL That info starts at 15:28
rather than post a video with a lot of unrelated stuff
And there may well be no partner cards for Radeon VII apparently. That should make controlling the price easy. LOL That info starts at 15:28
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People would pay the same price for the same performance, more power use, and not have RT technology???
Also, the most expensive version is $970 (of those sold by newegg and not some 3rd party seller trying to rip people off). That is also a one off it seems. For $900 you can get 2080's with waterblocks on them...or get one with a 1KW PSU. I wouldn't reference 3rd party pricing.
Also, the most expensive version is $970 (of those sold by newegg and not some 3rd party seller trying to rip people off). That is also a one off it seems. For $900 you can get 2080's with waterblocks on them...or get one with a 1KW PSU. I wouldn't reference 3rd party pricing.
Alaric
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RT just isn't that big a selling point right now. One game. Not exactly a compelling reason to buy.
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It was clear you didn't sort it... that is why I clarified and put pricing back into reality.
Yes, in BF V and the 20 other titles that are upcoming for it I linked to you a couple of days ago. For the same price, who wants to use RT in more titles this year? Again, same price and performance, less power use, I'm taking the card with RT capabilities. Regardless if it takes off or not, at least I could try it. There is zero chance an AMD card bought today runs RT anything in a year.
More features, same performance, and less power use for the same money, why would anyone ever?!!!!
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Alaric
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Just gonna leave this box here as a placeholder so it doesn't look like ED is talking to himself. I clicked on the wrong thread with this and previous response. My bad and apologies for going right off the reservation.
Which will add up to some huge sum, I'm sure that will make or break someone buying a $1000 graphics card....or not. ITX or mITX, it will matter for heat. But for the average gamer the difference would probably not even be noticed. I'm sure the math is available but I'm just not up t it at the moment.
Which will add up to some huge sum, I'm sure that will make or break someone buying a $1000 graphics card....or not. ITX or mITX, it will matter for heat. But for the average gamer the difference would probably not even be noticed. I'm sure the math is available but I'm just not up t it at the moment.
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Alaric
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I think I missed the thread with stuff for another one. I'm going to go back and do some creative editing now. I really need coffee before posting this early. Sorry guys.
OP
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2013
- Thread Starter
- #58
It was clear you didn't sort it... that is why I clarified and put pricing back into reality.
Yes, in BF V and the 20 other titles that are upcoming for it I linked to you a couple of days ago. For the same price, who wants to use RT in more titles this year? Again, same price and performance, less power use, I'm taking the card with RT capabilities. Regardless if it takes off or not, at least I could try it. There is zero chance an AMD card bought today runs RT anything in a year.
More features, same performance, and less power use for the same money, why would anyone ever?!!!!
The fact that 1080p is still the most popular resolution amongst gamers shows that people aren't concerned about graphical fidelity as much as they are about framerate. That's why 4k hasn't seen major adoption outside of the basic consumer sector; the Xbox One X is a pure marketing ploy. 1440p is just now starting to edge out 1080p for a decent number of people, but those on a budget and those looking to play at 240Hz still go with 1080p.
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I don't think we can say most people choose to stick on 1080p because they care more about framerate. Not sure where to look for stats but I'd bet most of them are 1080p60 or 75 and the main deciding factor was price.
I did have a look on Steam hardware survey, and 1440p+2160p make up just over 5%. It might not be the masses, but 5% of a big number is still not insignificant. A smaller number will push the limits which will some day turn into the new masses.
IMO 4k gaming will struggle until GPUs get faster, unlike 1440p which is a good balance between extra resolution and achievable framerate, without having to turn quality settings down.
I did have a look on Steam hardware survey, and 1440p+2160p make up just over 5%. It might not be the masses, but 5% of a big number is still not insignificant. A smaller number will push the limits which will some day turn into the new masses.
IMO 4k gaming will struggle until GPUs get faster, unlike 1440p which is a good balance between extra resolution and achievable framerate, without having to turn quality settings down.
