Hm. Why does new Antec TP380 have specs that are equal to an 'old' Antec TP550?

[c627627]

I traced the problem of my HDs clicking at boot to my Antec TP380 power supply. My problems went away when I put in another PSU, so when I finally replaced the TruePower 380, I took a look at specs and noticed they are all identical except the PSU label (plus also old vs. new manual) shows the +12 V like so:

.........OLD....NEW
VOLT +12V +12V

TRUE330 17A 22A
TRUE380 18A 24A
TRUE430 20A 26A
TRUE480 22A 28A
TRUE550 24A 30A

Does that mean my new TP380 is like an old TP550?

(I know they released some new PSUs in new Sonatas, but shouldn't they have called them differently?)


Anyway, I looked at specs because I'd like to put an extra hard drive or two in and since I have no multimeters, can I find out through software or math what the consequences of prolonged use would be so I can avoid buying a new PSU which I didn't plan on doing just yet, especially if I'm really using an 'old' TruePower 550 Watt Antec that they now call TP380?

Full specs:
VOLTAGE +5V +12V +3.3V -5V -12V +5VSB
TRUE380 35A 24A 28A 0.5A 1.OA 2.0A

MIN. LOAD 0A 0.8A 0A 0A 0A 0A
REGULATION +3% +3% +3% +5% +5% +5%
RIPPLE & NOISE 50 120 50 50 120 50
(mV)


I would be adding Seagate 80GB Ultra ATA/100 7200 RPM (8MB) ST380013A
I may also be adding Maxtor 60GB Ultra ATA/133 7200 RPM (2MB)

to what I already have:

AMD Athlon XP 2400+ mobile 35 watt AXMD 2400 FJQ4C IQYHA 0402 SPMW
3 x 256 PNY PC2700 (Bravo chips) @ 6 3 3 2
[192] FSB x 12.5 = 2400 MHz @ 1.80 Vcore with memory frequency at 100% [192 FSB] @ 2.90 Vdimm
Epox 8RDA+ v1.1
Thermalright SLK-947U with variable speed 80x25mm Thermaltake Smart Fan 2
Antec SX-835II case ; 380W Antec TruePower TP380
Four 80x25mm Case Fans + 1 Variable speed 80x25mm Fan YS-Tech FD1281259B-2F

Western Digital 200GB Ultra ATA/100 7200 RPM SE (8MB)
Western Digital 120GB Ultra ATA/100 7200 RPM SE (8MB)
KHypermedia DVD+RW Drive 8X (rebadged BenQ DW800A)
Cendyne DVD-ROM Drive (rebadged Toshiba SD-M1612)
Sony Floppy drive
ATI All-In-Wonder 9600XT
Voyetra Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card
Silicon Image IDE Raid PCI Card SIL680RAID
D-Link Ethernet Card DFE-530TX+
Best Data 56K V.92 Modem56HP-92

ViewSonic 19” LCD VX910
Logitech Cordless Mouse & Keyboard with separate receivers
Visioneer USB Scanner OneTouch 9020
Lexmark Color Jetprinter Z45se

 

[Oklahoma Wolf]

They've redesigned the Truepowers to keep up better with more recent 12v demands. Next redesign will be to make them ATX 2.0 compliant.

 

[diehrd]

Personally I would AVOID antech about now.I have not only personally had 3 bit me in the rear but have read several posts about there failing in several peoples systems..

Get a Fortron 530 or something of equil quality and rep..Antec lately seam to suck..

 

[Oklahoma Wolf]

I'm not sure I buy into this whole Antec situation... haven't seen nearly enough info to convince me this isn't just a case of, "well, that guy had problems and mine had problems too, so I'll just add my experiences to the list."

I haven't really seen much to make me believe yet QC over at Channel Well/Antec is slipping. Still looking into it though. Also still debating whether to bump them off my list of top units in favour of the new Seasonic S12 units. Currently it's Zippy, Fortron, OCZ, and Antec in that order.

 

[Sneaky]

they had to meet the power demands of newer A64's and P4's that have a higher amperage draw on the 12v line

there have been quite a few older Antec's that have fried with the 24a 12v rail because they were used with a system that simply sucked too much power out of it - antec's solution - upgrade their entire line of products to future-proof them (and current proof if you wanna put it that way too)

 

[Gautam]

It's a question of how the power is allocated. Your old TP380 was designed for +5v-heavy systems. Newer systems rely mostly on the +12v, which Antec had in mind for the newer models. The peak wattage for both units would probably be about equal.

 

[c627627]

So what about my question about adding two extra hard drives to what I already have (listed)?

Isn't there a way of caluculating how much power those listed components may need and calculating how likely the new TP380 is going to be able to handle it?

 

[Oklahoma Wolf]

That newer True 380 should have no problem taking another couple hard drives... they don't use that much power except at spinup.

 

[Gautam]

Hmm while we're on the topic I found this on Western Digital's websites; electrical data of the Raptor, which I'm guessing is the queen mother of all hard drives as far as power draw goes...

12 VDC
Read/Write 349 mA
Idle 338 mA
Standby 15.9 mA
Sleep 16 mA

5 VDC
Read/Write 706 mA
Idle 770 mA
Standby 314 mA
Sleep 184 mA

Power Dissipation
Read/Write 8.400 Watts
Idle 7.900 Watts
Standby 1.760 Watts
Sleep 1.110 Watts

That doesn't sound like that much power to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say the whole hard drive issue is a tad over hyped. But then again, what isn't?

 

[Oklahoma Wolf]

You're not wrong

 

[c627627]

Thank you guys. Extra Hard Drives are going in.

1. Does this mean that the controversy about Antecs has been solved:
If you have an 'old' Antec, you're likely to experience problems as you would with cheapos but if you have a 'new' Antec, although you're still better off going with a Fortron (Sparkle), you're basically OK and reservations about Antecs do not apply to you.

2. Question 2, this is an important question so I'm sorry for still pushing it, how do you use math to calculate specific system PSU power requirements?

3. Using software, inaccurate as it is, if 'what' dips below 'what' do yo consider it a sign of trouble?


Again for reference: old vs. new table:

.........OLD....NEW
VOLT +12V +12V

TRUE330 17A 22A
TRUE380 18A 24A
TRUE430 20A 26A
TRUE480 22A 28A
TRUE550 24A 30A

 

[Oklahoma Wolf]

I never really considered Antec/CWT as being Fortron level in terms of build quality, but always thought of them being better than average. I still think of them as being about 4 out of 5 for QC, and hold the new flavour of the year (OCZ Powerstream) in that same regard. Give them a couple years, and I'm almost sure you'll see as many OCZ complaints as Antec. More people are complaining about Antec ATM because they've been around a while and there are still far more of them out there yet than OCZ. But that'll likely change as time goes on.

Fortron and PC P&C, IMO, are 4.5 out of 5 for QC. There are simply fewer failures on theirs than most other companies. Nobody gets a perfect 5 from me, but I'll call Zippy a 4.9.

As far as the controversy goes, I think older units had more problems with bad/leaky caps due to the electrolyte thing than being actually underpowered. Indeed, I recall a couple of them exceeding power specs over at Tom's back in the day. However, I still suggest waiting on any new Antec purchase until the new True 2.0 units are out... the new 550w should be rated for dual 20A 12v lines if CWT's UL certification page is accurate. Whether it will actually do that or not is a good question.

Anyhow, that's my take on the whole thing

 

[larrymoencurly]

C627627, I think that your TruePower 380W developed bad capacitors because recently a friend of mine found a bulging cap in his 330W or 380W TP, and it was running a computer that probably drew less than 100W. The same thing happened to me late last year, only with a 300W SmartPower running just a 60W load. In both PSUs the bad caps were the Fuhjyyu brand.

The newer Antecs with the higher +12V amp ratings seem to have beefier high voltage sections. For example, in the old 300W SmartPower the transistors are rated for a total of 13A but 18A in the current ones.

 

[Sentential]

They've redesigned the Truepowers to keep up better with more recent 12v demands. Next redesign will be to make them ATX 2.0 compliant.

Exactally... which is why IM not using my Antec anymore

 

[c627627]

The mobo in question was not drawing power from the 4 pin +12V but from regular 5 V line.

But this was what I was talking about, look at this 'hitechjb1 for Pres.' post :

Let's do some simple estimate.

Major power for these major items:

I looked at pic of 8RDA+, could not find 12 V 4-pin connector, so I asume 5 V line is used for CPU. Let me know if there is a 4-pin 12V connector.
CPU_power = 35 * (1.8/1.35)^2 (2.4/1.8) = 83 W (on 5V)
Taking regulator efficiency of 80% into account
CPU_power = 83 * 1.25 = 104 W

video card ~ 40 W (on 5 V)
HD, optical drive ~ 15 W (on 12 V)
fan ~ 2 - 8 W (0n 12 V)

Other components, like memory modules, motherboards, mouse/keyboard, USB, add-on cards, ... use ~ 50 W (from non-12 V).

You have 6 hard drives, 1 CPU fan + 5 case fans

Total power = 104 + 40 + 6 * 15 + 8 + 5 * 2 + 50 = 302 W

Current_12V = (6 * 15 + 8 + 5 * 2) / 12 = 108 / 12 = 9 A
The 12 V line is definitely OK since the CPU and video card are not using 12 V.

For simiplicity, assume the rest of the major power is from 5 V, actually should be less
Current_5V < (104 + 40 + 50) / 5 = 194 / 5 = 37 A

These are the worst case estimate, in real usage, all components do not draw power all at the same time.

The spec of the new Antec True 380: 5 V 35A, 12 V 24 A, 3.3 V 28 A, total output 360 W for 12, 5, 3.3 V.

So I think the PSU for your current setup is OK.

It would even better if the CPU is drawing 12 V current and not 5 V current, since the load on 12 V and 5 V would be more balance.
current_12V = 104 / 12 + 9 = 17 A
current_5V ~ 90 / 5 = 18 A

For A64, CPU_power is about the same and may even be lower. Keeping the same number of HD + OD, fan, even with a PCI-e system wherein video card uses 12 V, add about 5-6 A for medium power video card, current_12V ~ 23 A. So the PSU should be marginally OK.

The final say is actual testing of the system.

PSU rating estimate for some 939 CPU and systems
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?p=3204783#post3204783
What size PSU do I need?
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1858434#post1858434

 

[hitechjb1]

I have been using a Fortron 350 W (120 mm fan) or an Antec True 550 W (old version) continuously to power a system with a Winchester 3000+, DFI LanParty UT Nforce4 Ultra-D, 6600 GT (525/1050), TCCD memory modules without problem, very stable. It even works with the 20-pin power connector connected directly onto the 24-pin power socket of the motherboard.

Memtest86 boot at 3006 MHz
Memtest86 pass at 2970 MHz 1.62 V, 3-5-5-10 1T 2.8 V
Windows XP boot at 2.95 GHz
Sandra CPU run at 2.94 GHz
SuperPI run at 2.90 GHz
3DMark01 run at 2.85 GHz 1.55 V, memory 317 MHz 2.5-4-4-8 1T, SuperPI 1M 30 sec
Prime95 run stably at 2.73 GHz 1.52 V, memory 303 MHz 2.5-3-3-7 1T, 23 C idle, 38 C load (11+ hours, user aborted)
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=364223


So don't throw away some older generations of PSU, at least trying them out first with the new motherboards such as Nforce3, PCI-e Nforce4 boards. In the long run, it is still a good idea to get a ATX 2.0 PSU, such as Fortron Blue Storm 500W, Antec Neo Power 480W, OCZ PowerStream 520W, for the PCI-e motherbaords.

Some old version of Antec True PSU may have problems with some Nforce3 board such as ABIT AV8. I heard from Antec tech support that the reason has been due to some timing issues that prevent some motherboards from powering up, and not due to lack of current on the various lines. The new version of Antec True should fix these problems.

 

[c627627]

Even though I figure he probably meant 'generally speaking,' larva's opinion about this that "nothing besides cpu and video card realy draws enough power to matter," is probably contrary to what most people are concerned with when thinking about power supplies inasmuch as they probably think more about their entire system then it appears they should.

Thank you for those great links hitechjb1.

 

[c627627]

Now my Antec TP380 died, they're replacing it with TPII380, I don't need extra connectors so powerwise, am I loosing or gaining with version 2

This is TP380:
VOLTAGE +5V +12V +3.3V -5V -12V +5VSB
TRUE380 35A 24A 28A 0.5A 1.OA 2.0A

MIN. LOAD 0A 0.8A 0A 0A 0A 0A
REGULATION +3% +3% +3% +5% +5% +5%
RIPPLE & NOISE 50 120 50 50 120 50 (mV)



This is TPII380:
http://www.antec.com/specs/TPII380_spe.html

OUTPUT
+3.3V +5V +12V1 +12V2 +5V SB -12V
28.0A* 35A* 16A* 16A 2.0A 1.0A Max. Load
0.5A 0.5A 0.4A 0.4A 0A 0A Min. Load
±3% ±3% ±3% 3% ±5% ±5% Load Reg.
50mV 50mV 120mV 120mV 50mV 120mV Ripple V(p-p)

* +5V, +3.3V, +12V1, 12V2 maximum output 360 Watts max.

 

[Gautam]

If they have it allocated how I hope they do, i.e. 16x12=192W dedicated for the CPU, then you're definitely gaining. That said though, it probably won't be able to keep up with the latest systems.

 

[c627627]

Right. No it's just a replacement because of this:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=466792

for this:
_____________________
AMD Athlon XP 2500+ AXMH 2500 FQQ4C
IQYHA 0348 SPMW
2 x 512MB Centon PC3200 (Samsung chips) @ 9 4 4 3
[200] FSB x 12 = 2400 MHz @ 1.85 Vcore with memory frequency at 100% [200 FSB] @ 2.90 Vdimm and 1.8 Vdd
Epox 8RDA3+ v2.1, BIOS 07/29/2004
Thermalright SLK-900A with variable speed 80x25mm Thermaltake Smart Fan 2
AIW 9600XT 128MB; Antec SX-835II case ; 380W Antec TruePower TP380
Four 80x25mm Case Fans + 1 Variable speed 80x25mm Fan YS-Tech FD1281259B-2F