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Kaby Lake? Skylake? Coffee Lake?

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batboy

Senior Moment
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Kansas, USA
My sweet Sandy Bridge system has lasted almost 7 years. Reckon it's time for me to crawl out of my cave and gather up components for an overhaul.

Skylake and Kaby Lake and Coffee Lake... OH MY!

Guess I need to catch up with what's going on. So, all of the above are 14nm technology, right? Cannonlake (or something like that) will usher in the 10nm process, but apparently that is still way off in the future.

What to get for my future build?

Please, do not post about Ryzen or Threadripper. Yeah, AMD finally/again has some nice CPUs available. But, this is the Intel CPU section, right?

I like what I see from Kaby Lake, the 7700K and z270 chipset seems to be the ticket. However... I'm in no hurry. What about the supposedly soon to be released Coffee Lake? My limited understanding is this will be based on Kaby Lake, but further improved, refined, and optimized. Coffee Lake will probably be released in September (that's my prediction after reading 4-1/2 tech articles and looking at the tea leaves in my cup). Perhaps I'll plan to be an early adopter of an i7-8700K (unlocked 6-core/12-thread chip with 12MB of L3 cache and a 95W TDP). If it's a step up from the Kaby Lake, logic suggests it should be a good overclocker.

Comment?
 

Sentential

Contributing Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Location
Knoxville, TN
My sweet Sandy Bridge system has lasted almost 7 years. Reckon it's time for me to crawl out of my cave and gather up components for an overhaul.

Skylake and Kaby Lake and Coffee Lake... OH MY!

Guess I need to catch up with what's going on. So, all of the above are 14nm technology, right? Cannonlake (or something like that) will usher in the 10nm process, but apparently that is still way off in the future.

What to get for my future build?

Please, do not post about Ryzen or Threadripper. Yeah, AMD finally/again has some nice CPUs available. But, this is the Intel CPU section, right?

I like what I see from Kaby Lake, the 7700K and z270 chipset seems to be the ticket. However... I'm in no hurry. What about the supposedly soon to be released Coffee Lake? My limited understanding is this will be based on Kaby Lake, but further improved, refined, and optimized. Coffee Lake will probably be released in September (that's my prediction after reading 4-1/2 tech articles and looking at the tea leaves in my cup). Perhaps I'll plan to be an early adopter of an i7-8700K (unlocked 6-core/12-thread chip with 12MB of L3 cache and a 95W TDP). If it's a step up from the Kaby Lake, logic suggests it should be a good overclocker.

Comment?

It could be that I'm getting old but the desktop scene these days is lame. I ended up caving and bought an AW13r3. Despite what you say the only real interesting thing happening in the desktop space is Threadripper sadly. Kabylake is a joke, so much so that I bought a Skylake laptop on the outlet because Intel's QC has really nosedived lately. I'm talking things like warped (concave) die slugs, poor TIM, DOAs you name it which is pretty alarming but it is what it is.

Coffeelake is going to be another hack job and isn't a real 6 core, the one to watch is Cannonlake but the majority of it's features are geared towards enterprise. Had some Openstack training recently and it's clear the kind of direction Intel is perusing at this point. The focus now are VMs and other virtualized applications for the "cloud" and less so on raw performance. Coffeelake is a ways off, if it were right around the corner you'd see OEMs gearing up for it and clearing out old stock and that just hasn't happened yet. I'd say its closer to November than September. Overclocking could be good or it could be a mixed bag, right now Intel has most of their chips pushed as hard as they can get them until the new uArch.
 
OP
batboy

batboy

Senior Moment
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Kansas, USA
Wait, Coffee Lake is not a real six core CPU? So, like two of the cores are fakes?
 

Sentential

Contributing Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Location
Knoxville, TN
Wait, Coffee Lake is not a real six core CPU? So, like two of the cores are fakes?

No it has 6 cores but they're essentially glue on and not anything other than more of the same. I'm sure there will be select benchmarks that will show it's better but the majority of IPC increase will be from clockspeed just like Kaby
 

mackerel

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
If waiting is ok, Coffee Lake is more interesting in some ways than Skylake-X, which is available now. The entry level 7800X gets you 6 Intel cores now, and doesn't cost much more than a 7700k. Likewise you might have to spend a little more on the mobo but they're not deal breakers. Why Coffee Lake? I'm guessing from current info it will follow mainstream CPUs in cache structure instead of the new rebalanced structure in Skylake-X. I think it will help with shared L3 cache intensive applications, whereas Skylake-X benefits going between L2 and ram. I suspect Coffee Lake will have more predictable performance relative to its predecessors than Skylake-X, which is proving more interesting.

Ryzen is a value option, for those who don't care about clocks or AVX2 performance.

No it has 6 cores but they're essentially glue on and not anything other than more of the same. I'm sure there will be select benchmarks that will show it's better but the majority of IPC increase will be from clockspeed just like Kaby

Is that the same or different glue than AMD is using? :D
 
OP
batboy

batboy

Senior Moment
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Kansas, USA
Admittedly, I'm not electronics engineer, but aren't all multi-core processors a collection of tiny electronic components and cores and transistors and etc.?
 

wingman99

Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2003
Admittedly, I'm not electronics engineer, but aren't all multi-core processors a collection of tiny electronic components and cores and transistors and etc.?

On the Silicon die or dies it's all transistors, the package has IHS, resistors, substrate, that is it.
 

Sentential

Contributing Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Location
Knoxville, TN
Admittedly, I'm not electronics engineer, but aren't all multi-core processors a collection of tiny electronic components and cores and transistors and etc.?

Yea but in the case of Coffeelake there have been no overhauls to the RAM or cache layout or anything meaningful in terms of design, it's not a top to bottom hex its a quad +2. Cannonlake was purpose built for 6+ whereas the coffee lake isn't a whole lot different from Skylake or frankly Nelhalem
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
There are huge differences between nehalem and next generations, especially haswell+. I mean cache is much faster, memory controller is much faster, there was redesigned power delivery and some other things too. CPU isn't much different except new instructions but everything else what is in the package makes a huge difference.

Regardless what will be in new Intels, they will sell good as most people have no idea what are they really buying. New CPU is automatically better for most clients and if they don't believe in that then marketing will make them believe. For enthusiasts there are many other factors but recently most enthusiasts feed on random BS repeated via forums and rumours created by people who have no idea what are they talking about.
 

Soulcatcher668

Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
The only reason that I am tossing around the idea of retiring my long suffering 2600K is because of ancillary features. M.2 NVME drives, PCIe 3, USB 3.1, etc.

The CPU part of my system is just fine for my uses but I would really like some of the newer creature comforts at this point.
 
OP
batboy

batboy

Senior Moment
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Kansas, USA

I've heard this from various sources too, sounds like they plan to release a z370 chipset. Of course, I can't find it right this minute, but I did read one article that claimed Intel is looking at making the Coffee Lake CPU compatible for the z270 and maybe even the z170. Is that true or purely a pipedream? I have no clue.

Upon further thought and contemplation:

Ok, sometimes I have to sneak new info into my half-fried brain and then let it ferment for a while. I see now the CPU landscape is currently in flux. Thanks to my smart (and smart ***) OC Forum brothers, I'm starting to learn just enough to be dangerous. I'd almost forgot the importance of L2/L3 cache and other features. Yeah, I get why some are bitter about Coffee Lake, it's another rehash of the 14nm technology.

Here's a list of possible actions:

1. Postpone building a new rig for a few more months and be a pioneer for the upcoming Cannonlake. I'm thinking a mid-winter project might work good for me (time-wise).

2. Just purchase a Kaby Lake LGA 1151 (7700K) and be done with it (as suggested by wingman and others). Note: needs z270 chipset.

3. Get one of the new Skylake-X processors (X299 platform) like the top dog i9 7900X (10 cores and expensive $$$$) or i7 7820X (8 cores) or i7 7800X (6 cores).

4. Get the new Kaby Lake-X processor (i7 7740X). Note: requires expense X299 motherboard.

5. Switch to AMD Ryzen until Intel gets their guano together.

6. Crawl back into my cave for another year and see what happens later.
 

Alaric

New Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Location
Satan's Colon, US
Just purchase a Kaby Lake LGA 1151 (7700K) and be done with it (as suggested by wingman and others). Note: needs z270 chipset.

A z170 chipset will work just fine, and will likely be a lot cheaper as the manufacturers unload "obsolete" inventory. As far as I know the z270 doesn't have any real advantage over the earlier ones.
 

Sentential

Contributing Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Location
Knoxville, TN
There are huge differences between nehalem and next generations, especially haswell+. I mean cache is much faster, memory controller is much faster, there was redesigned power delivery and some other things too. CPU isn't much different except new instructions but everything else what is in the package makes a huge difference.
Sure I completely agree my point was if someone die-shunk Nelhalem and clocked it to 5ghz would it be all that different unless they were TOLD it wasn't Kabylake? Probably not, it not like the kind of generational shift we saw from P4 to Merom to C2D to i7. Everything Intel has done are things on the margin or things that would affect laptop users not so much a heavy overclocker.


I've heard this from various sources too, sounds like they plan to release a z370 chipset. Of course, I can't find it right this minute, but I did read one article that claimed Intel is looking at making the Coffee Lake CPU compatible for the z270 and maybe even the z170. Is that true or purely a pipedream? I have no clue.

Upon further thought and contemplation:

Ok, sometimes I have to sneak new info into my half-fried brain and then let it ferment for a while. I see now the CPU landscape is currently in flux. Thanks to my smart (and smart ***) OC Forum brothers, I'm starting to learn just enough to be dangerous. I'd almost forgot the importance of L2/L3 cache and other features. Yeah, I get why some are bitter about Coffee Lake, it's another rehash of the 14nm technology.

Here's a list of possible actions:

1. Postpone building a new rig for a few more months and be a pioneer for the upcoming Cannonlake. I'm thinking a mid-winter project might work good for me (time-wise).

2. Just purchase a Kaby Lake LGA 1151 (7700K) and be done with it (as suggested by wingman and others). Note: needs z270 chipset.

3. Get one of the new Skylake-X processors (X299 platform) like the top dog i9 7900X (10 cores and expensive $$$$) or i7 7820X (8 cores) or i7 7800X (6 cores).

4. Get the new Kaby Lake-X processor (i7 7740X). Note: requires expense X299 motherboard.

5. Switch to AMD Ryzen until Intel gets their guano together.

6. Crawl back into my cave for another year and see what happens later.

Option #1 or #6 are your best options. Ryzen while good is still a half-measure like S754 was when compared to Threadripper which is the true spiritual successor to S939
 

mackerel

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Sure I completely agree my point was if someone die-shunk Nelhalem and clocked it to 5ghz would it be all that different unless they were TOLD it wasn't Kabylake? Probably not, it not like the kind of generational shift we saw from P4 to Merom to C2D to i7. Everything Intel has done are things on the margin or things that would affect laptop users not so much a heavy overclocker.

By that argument, if you had a Ryzen of similar core configuration but clocked to 5 GHz, is it that different? For basic stuff, I doubt it, and in those areas things are pretty much refined over the years on the Intel side. Ryzen has pretty much caught up, give or take a bit here and there, but they're not doing radically better either. There simply isn't much to be gained from optimising the basic stuff.

The add ons instructions that are thrown in now and then are where the processors really differentiate. Going from Nehalem to Sandy Bridge saw a doubling in AVX performance. Haswell added another practical 50% on top of that with FMA3 (unlike AMD's FMA4 implementation which simply didn't provide any benefit in use). On paper, Skylake-X is another doubling on top of that with AVX-512, although it will take a little time for software to be updated to use it. Ryzen's implementation would be somewhere behind Sandy Bridge in IPC, but it does save AMD a lot of die area and a side benefit of lower max power consumption. I'm only mentioning this as it is an instruction set that impacts software I run by a large margin. There are also other added instructions I don't care about. I think that is the direction that will be taken by both AMD and Intel looking forward. Implement features in hardware that traditionally had to be done in software, for better power efficiency of real world tasks.
 

Nebulous

Señor Senior, Senior
Joined
Oct 11, 2002
Location
The Empire State
Batz, why don't you hang on a little longer? X299 isn't ripe yet and the money they're commanding is outrageous. Prices for DDR4 hasn't fallen yet either. The 7800X is just a rehashed Kaby in a different socket flavor so no better than the 7700K. AMD's Ryzen is showing promise tho.

All depends on your flavor wether Intel or AMD. If you need an upgrade now, I would go 7700K/Z270/DDR4 and be done. I upgraded from a 4790K/Z97/DDR3 platform as I wanted to, not because I needed to. I got a nice performance increase in games, but for everything else between Z97 & Z270 I can't tell the difference.