8 core or 6 core?

[Bubba-Hotepp]

here is "the pig" ar 4.9 just a shorty to show the setup

What kind of cooling are you using? That's excellent. TCase of 47C under full burn at that speed? You still have room to OC....*jealous*

 

[caddi daddi]

that was just to show my voltage and such, only 20 or so seconds in to show voltage under llc. "the pig" gets much hotter than that, you will see another pic posted at 4.6 i think at 67c.

 

[caddi daddi]

holly cow!!!! using mr. Rgones link i just found out my cooling system is crap!!!!!!
that will limit running "the pig" to 4.3..........................
i will change it out for one of my better cpu's and see what happens.

 

[RGone]

holly cow!!!! using mr. Rgones link i just found out my cooling system is crap!!!!!!
that will limit running "the pig" to 4.3..........................
i will change it out for one of my better cpu's and see what happens.

I was just trying to help you get your GFlops up. Not diss your cooling man. But I have run IBT the right way a few times to get the flops up and yes it will get warmer.

Oh by the way, I doubt your cooling is crap...I think the dang cpu runs too freeken hot for its' size.

 

[Frakk]

This is after 9 hours P95 full blend, look at the core temps.... also your CPU temp looks like its under reading by a lot, that explains why its not throttling as your Motherboards BIOS depends on that sensor for its thermal limit readings.

Why is it doing that???? do you have a bag of frozen peas sitting on the back of the Motherboard?

 

[caddi daddi]

so, running ibt properly, i notice that i am now the king of all i see and that is allidiots,thus i am king of allidiots. I have just noticed that if i run ibt at stock clocks i get 28 gflops, if i run ibt at 4.4, i still get 28 gflops...........

so i pose this one question, anybody got a link to another copy of ibt?

 

[caddi daddi]

frakk i have installed an 80mm fan on the outside of the case blowing onto the backside of the socket area, this has reduced my socket (cpu temp in h/w monitor) temp, and at the same time reduced my core temps 2-3 degrees c.

 

[caddi daddi]

Rgone, you are not dissing my cooling system, you are helping me find the flaws in my system so i can raise my game.

 

[Frakk]

frakk i have installed an 80mm fan on the outside of the case blowing onto the backside of the socket area, this has reduced my socket (cpu temp in h/w monitor) temp, and at the same time reduced my core temps 2-3 degrees c.

I thought it must be something like that.

As i said that's why its not throttling, its not reaching the temps to trigger the BIOS, those socket temps can not be accurate, at 67c your core temps are still way to high.

If AMD are reading this, they will be crying...

 

[caddi daddi]

i agreee they are much to high, i am open to ideas on gettin them down.......
i really get scared when they get into the 70c range.

 

[Frakk]

i agreee they are much to high, i am open to ideas on gettin them down.......
i really get scared when they get into the 70c range.

What are your core temps @ 4.4Ghz? (25 minute P95 full blend)

 

[Bubba-Hotepp]

What are your core temps @ 4.4Ghz? (25 minute P95 full blend)

Core temps (TCore) are meaningless for AMD and have nothing to do with whether you're below or exceeding the max operating temp (TCase). As designed and fabricated, AMD CPU's have a series of temperature diodes (how many they won't say as it's "proprietary") spread out on top of the die where the IHS (Integrated Heat Spreader) makes contact. Together averaged out they make up the "TCase" reading. There are no temp diodes in each core so to come up with each "core" temperature reading or "TCore", they take the TCase diodes that are closest to that individual core and do a mathmatical abstraction to come up with a "guesstimate" of the core's temperature. That's why in all of the documentation (the white sheets) it always lists "TCase" as the maximum operating temperature (which by the way is a conservative limit placed by AMD). For the 4100 & 6100 max TCase is 70C while for the 8120 & 8150 it's 61C. TCase will be the "CPU Temp" in the bios readings. For software monitoring programs you have to see which one is taken from the "CPU Temp" (and therefore agrees with) in bios. I know for Speedfan that will be the "CPU Temp". For other programs depends on the MB. For my Asrock board it's "CPUTIN" whereas for my previous Gigabyte board it was one of the TMPIN readings and I had to match it up.

 

[Frakk]

Core temps (TCore) are meaningless for AMD and have nothing to do with whether you're below or exceeding the max operating temp (TCase). As designed and fabricated, AMD CPU's have a series of temperature diodes (how many they won't say as it's "proprietary") spread out on top of the die where the IHS (Integrated Heat Spreader) makes contact. Together averaged out they make up the "TCase" reading. There are no temp diodes in each core so to come up with each "core" temperature reading or "TCore", they take the TCase diodes that are closest to that individual core and do a mathmatical abstraction to come up with a "guesstimate" of the core's temperature. That's why in all of the documentation (the white sheets) it always lists "TCase" as the maximum operating temperature (which by the way is a conservative limit placed by AMD). For the 4100 & 6100 max TCase is 70C while for the 8120 & 8150 it's 61C. TCase will be the "CPU Temp" in the bios readings. For software monitoring programs you have to see which one is taken from the "CPU Temp" (and therefore agrees with) in bios. I know for Speedfan that will be the "CPU Temp". For other programs depends on the MB. For my Asrock board it's "CPUTIN" whereas for my previous Gigabyte board it was one of the TMPIN readings and I had to match it up.

The temp sensor for the BIOS is on the back of the Motherboard. (your TCase) in this case it has a fan blowing on it, which is why its reading 46c or whatever it was while the core temps (your TCore) are reading 67c. some 20 odd degrees higher.

 

[Bubba-Hotepp]

The temp sensor for the BIOS is on the back of the Motherboard. (your TCase) in this case it has a fan blowing on it, which is why its reading 46c or whatever it was while the core temps (your TCore) are reading 67c. some 20 odd degrees higher.

All temperatures are reported through the bios. TCase is not the temp diode in the socket of the motherboard. I've already emailed back and forth with AMD clarifying the whole thing. Let me post it for you -

From: [email protected]
Sent: Wed 5/16/12 8:09 AM
To: [email protected]

Dear Stephen,

Your service request : SR #{ticketno:[8200488157]} has been reviewed and updated.

Response and Service Request History:

It's quite alright, this is a question that I can't really find a specific answer to as well. Obviously software can tweak the numbers a bit (Catalyst vs HWMonitor vs CoreTemp), since they're just interpreting the BIOS info, which is the most accurate, but I can't seem to find any documentation or source code or manuals or ANYTHING from HWMonitor that shows where they determine CPUTIN. All I've seen are people noting errors in HWMonitor specifically, but obviously I can't confirm these issues. The HWMonitor forums seem to imply that it is based on TCase, but all I can confirm is that it's taking a value from the board and reporting it, but the introduction of a 3rd party really does temper the values a little bit, and they don't seem to actually say which one they are using (TJ, TCase, etc).

From what I can figure out, each software really does their own thing (like CoreTemp uses TJ for Intel processors and TCase for AMDs). I know that this didn't really help, all I can say for sure is that HWMonitor doesn't have available documentation on where they get their info, but the majority of software will just rely on the board to give them info, as they won't have access to those numbers directly, but interpretation and rounding errors and such can yield slightly skewed results.

Either way, TCase is supposed to be the physical temperature of the inside-top of the CPU, while core temperatures most often refer to CPU-NB temperatures (for AMD processors at least), or Tjunction (for either brand of processor), depending on the software. But obviously each software developer can do what they want with their information, and define/interpret it in different ways. That's part of the joy of open-sourced software, 10 versions that do the same thing to sometimes-contradictory results. I know that this really didn't answer the question, but it's all that I am able to get out of HWMonitor, and what info we have on processors in general over here.

Feel free to ask more questions, having people informed like you, who are willing to pass this information on (after interpreting and translating it into something that resembles a coherent thought) makes life easier for all of us, and helps to show people that we're more than just a manufacturer of processors and GPUs, but a company that wants to help, no matter the question or problem. .

In order to update this service request, please respond, leaving the service request reference intact.

Best regards,

AMD Global Customer Care

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

This email is a direct result of your contact with AMD Global Customer Care and not part of a campaign. There is no need to unsubscribe to this email as you will only be contacted again if you directly request another service from AMD Global Customer Care.

The contents of this message are provided for informational purposes only. AMD makes no representation or warranties with respect to the accuracy of the contents of the information provided, and reserves the right to change such information at any time, with or without notice.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________


Original Text


From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC:
Sent: 05/15/12 16:32:02
Subject: RE: AMD Service Notice:{ticketno:[8200488157]}


I apologize for going back to the temperature question again but now a new issue has popped up. Now that you've clarified that the maximum safe operating temp listed is the Tcase temperature, the confusion lies in what reading shows Tcase. I was under the impression that in a program like HWmonitor, CPUTIN = Tcase however more and more people are referring to Tcase as the "core temps" that are listed in programs like HWmonitor.

From: [email protected]
Sent: Thu 5/17/12 8:14 AM
To: [email protected]

Dear Stephen,

Your service request : SR #{ticketno:[8200488157]} has been reviewed and updated.

Response and Service Request History:

You pretty much nailed it. I was able to get a little more info from the embedded team into borderline-proprietary information, so I'll try to elaborate on what you understood. TCase for AMD processors comes from a few thermistors (not one, apparently, just found that out) inside the processor case (at the bottom, where the pins are), connecting down to the CPU via the Junction. There are always more than 1 (at least 2, up to 6-8 potentially, but no elaboration given on how many per model), but the TCase temperature is determined by averaging those values out, done by the processor. TJunction is the temperature where the pins hit the board, and is usually a couple degrees cooler as all 940/941 pins aren't all firing at the same exact time, and not always evenly distributed when only 400 are on at one time.
TCore is actually mathematically guessed based on the varying TCase values, as there is no way to get a diode on top of the cores inside the processor, and putting it underneath the cores (between the bottom of the case and the bottom of the cores, which hover on a little silicon platform) would yield an inaccurate reading. As such, optimizing the core space on the wafers by keeping thermistors off, they just mathematically extrapolate the core temperature from the TCase values, based on core location on the processor and the values retrieved in that general area, plus some mathematical calculations.
TJunction is still a diode on the board, under the processor, which most boards still have, just in case the TCase values (or TJunction value given by Intel processors) are wrong for whatever reason. Though in some cases, TJunction can be off by as much as 20F, so it's obviously not an ideal value. Still, there are a lot of board manufacturers who will still include it, regardless of how necessary, because it's how they've always done things, and if there are problems with new processors or broken thermistors, they can still report a temperature, even if it's not the most accurate.

Sorry for the misinformation about the cores, I really had to get the embedded guys to give a little to get some information confirmation, including the number of thermistors in the case and where this coretemp comes from. A coworker summarized it well by saying that it's so tough trying to get confirmed information, because you get different reports from 3rd parties, and the actual designers/manufacturers want to keep as much information secret as possible. Sorry that this still isn't 100% concrete, but they finally gave in a bit and gave me a bit more information to work with this time, so now you (and I) have a clearer definition at least of what's going on temperature-wise.

In order to update this service request, please respond, leaving the service request reference intact.

Best regards,

AMD Global Customer Care

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

This email is a direct result of your contact with AMD Global Customer Care and not part of a campaign. There is no need to unsubscribe to this email as you will only be contacted again if you directly request another service from AMD Global Customer Care.

The contents of this message are provided for informational purposes only. AMD makes no representation or warranties with respect to the accuracy of the contents of the information provided, and reserves the right to change such information at any time, with or without notice.

_____________________________________________________________________________________________


Original Text


From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC:
Sent: 05/16/12 12:44:16
Subject: RE: AMD Service Notice:{ticketno:[8200488157]}


I'll sum up what I've learned and deduced and tell me if it's makes sense and/or is correct. As you've stated the Tcase is a singular temperature taken at the top of the CPU (I'm assuming from a diode at the top of the die where it makes contact with the IHS?). What seems to me as a dead giveaway that Tcase is not being used by programs like HWmonitor is that they list seperate values for each of the cores that can be the same but usually differ from each other (usually by 1-3C). Are individual "core" temperatures taken from a diode within each core? Or is it mathmatically based off of something like Tjunction to give a "guesstimate" for each core? But clearly the standard assumption I see that says quote: "CPU Temp = Tjunction or true Junction Temperature (This reading is taken from the sensor fixed in CPU socket on Motherboard.)" is clearly wrong. I was also under the assumption that motherboards didn't use a "socket" diode anymore as well. Does all of that make sense?

 

[Frakk]

Ok thanks, that's a nice bit of communication there from AMD.

 

[Bubba-Hotepp]

Ok thanks, that's a nice bit of communication there from AMD.

He's really gone out of his way to answer every question I've thrown at him (and they are numerous ). I have to applaud the tech support division at AMD for that.

 

[mjw21a]

Hmmmmm, thats a rather nice explanation from AMD tech support...... A shame this can't be included in an AMD sticky somewhere......

 

[Bubba-Hotepp]

Hmmmmm, thats a rather nice explanation from AMD tech support...... A shame this can't be included in an AMD sticky somewhere......

If a Mod wants to do a sticky I'll be more than happy to forward the emails so he can do it (as long as he x's out my email address )

 

[caddi daddi]

25 mins of prime 95 at 4.4 ghz gives me peak core temps of 55c and average core temp of 50c and cpu temp of49c

 

[caddi daddi]

strange, after playing with ibt for a while i can no longer run prime 95 at 4.6 or above with "the pig", what might be going on?????