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AMD XP 3200+......How Fast will it Run?

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But if you get a good stepping 2500+ you can get a real nice oc on stock voltage ;) There comes a point when they refine the process so well that they really can't make chips slow enough. It sounds odd but it really is true. A great number of things in the world of electronics are made like this. Oh this widget doesn't cut the mustard to be the real expensive model of widget so we will badge it as a cheapo model. What happens when you get so good at making widgets that everything starts passing the test? :D
 
OK, then why doesn't AMD just lable the 2500 refined chip, and sell it as a 3200? There has got to be some sort of difference in the way the chip is manufactured, when they give the chip a speed rating.
 
amd makes all of the chips the same, then test them. if they end up with 50 3200+ and 10 that only reliably do 2500+ but need to fill an order for 50 2500+ and 10 3200+, we get speed binning. they mark 40 of the 3200+ as 2500+. it happens all the time, even more so as a product matures.

those numbers are in no way accurate and are meant as an example, i doubt amd would deal in such small orders
 
I've built 3 machines for friends these last two weeks. The stepping were two 330's and a 331.

All are XP2500 running at XP3200 speeds at 1.65V, a SK7 for $15 and a Panaflow Fan. All Prime95 tested for 24 hours.

SuperTrucker has it 100% correct. Most of the public doesn’t know or under stand have the process works but it's basically supply and demand. If they all passed at 2.2GHz but HP needs 1.8GHz they just mark them as 1.8GHz and ship them on.
 
Wow, that is really interesting! I guess it all comes down to Marketing huh? They make these "latest and greatest" processors, and sell em for big bucks, while they've also got older model chips that can run the same speed.

hmmm, hmm, hmmm, well i ah, and i ah, well, i ahhhhh
 
ddawson, OK, i did notice you have full blown water cooling in your system. (i checked out your website).

How much did you spend on that? Also, if you need water cooling to get your 2500 running at 3200 speeds, then why can someone also run just a $15 heatsink and fan???
 
Water cooling does not always = uber overclocks. Some people water cool for different reason than others. Some people like to water cool for less noise. Water cooling can give great temps but in the end you are still forcing air through your radiator using fans, the cause of all the noise problems in the first place.

You can't just single out 1 person on the cost of their cooling and say the whole idea is invalid. There are plenty of people doing amazing things with air cooling and 2500+ processors. A 2500+ processor is fairly cheap. Buy one and try it out :D


Motley said:
Wow, that is really interesting! I guess it all comes down to Marketing huh? They make these "latest and greatest" processors, and sell em for big bucks, while they've also got older model chips that can run the same speed.

hmmm, hmm, hmmm, well i ah, and i ah, well, i ahhhhh

Thing you got to understand is that its more of a rating than a model. Its not that the 2500+ is older than the 3200+. They introduce new steppings of processors that were released a long time ago. Typically these new steppings are a step forward in overclocking. They basically apply what they learn not just to the 3200+ but to all bartons. They are not overcharging for their higher end chips as much as they are under charging for the lower end stuff. Overclockers are such a small % of the market though that it really doesn't mater to them.
 
Bottomend said:
Does anyone have this cpu? And if you do How far can you o/c it?:D

i have one, but its in my shuttle right now, so its running at stock. i got my new mobo yesterday, and im gonna switch out some chips and stuff this weekend. i have some really cheap 3200 ram, but i will let you guys know how the overclock goes in a few days. (note: i would never actually pay the money for a 3200, i would get a 2500 and OC it. i just happened to win this chip and ram with some other stuff :D)
 
Motley said:
Wow, that is really interesting! I guess it all comes down to Marketing huh? They make these "latest and greatest" processors, and sell em for big bucks, while they've also got older model chips that can run the same speed.

hmmm, hmm, hmmm, well i ah, and i ah, well, i ahhhhh

First of all lower rated chips cannot run at the same default voltage as higher rated chips, that's why they test them and initially label them different.

Then if you buy non retail cooling, you may be able to increase the voltage, raise the temps in the process and overclock higher.

Only when there is a market demand for lower rated chips and they are completely out of the chips that didn't pass the initial tests, only then will they slap a lower rated label on a higher rated chip.

Only then. But most of them are chips that can't do higher rated speeds at default voltages and are therefore different from their higher rated counterparts.

With adequate cooling and name brand power supplies, they should all overclock similarily on average if they have the same core. Some need more voltage, some less.
 
My cooler was 12.90 Euro. Watch my Sig.
That should end the discussion about needing watercooling or anything expensive to OC a 2500+ to a 3200+.
If i'd spend 30 to 50 bucks for a thermalright cooler i could goto 2.4ghz easy i'd say since i am still running on stock voltage.
 
Hey mustrum, would like to see how the AQZEA performs with water cooling............ 1 or 2 very nice results poping arround!!

My Xp2500+ does 2.2ghz (Xp3200+) on 1.55v , granted thats water cooled.

I had an Xp3000+ aswell and my 2500+ actually outperformed it !! That was a little bit of a shock..........
 
Motley,

I started into water cooling for the reduction in noise. I can get better cooling with bigger fans but my computer is about as loud as a laptop.

My older XP2700 would run at 2.5 with 1.85V. I wanted to see what all the noise was about with the Barton so I bought one.

I was a little disappointed but the extra cache makes up the difference. I'm currently running at 2.4GHz which is faster then the XP3200 but its taking 1.95V to get there. That's 200MHz more then the XP3200 and it only cost $85.

As for the cost of cooling :eek:

I started with the Koolance for like $250. I switched to the Q-Power for around $250 and I'm sure I have another $250 in upgraded parts. I have a small disease called Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. :D

Funny how I started into AMD chips to save money just to blow it on other stuff.

Thanks for checking out the website. :)
 
Motley said:

...
Also, one more thought, when you OC a 2500 to make it as fast or faster than a 3200, you have to spend more $$ on special cooling right? ..and, what about the effects of the high OC, does to the life of the chip?
...

With a high performance copper HSF such as SK7 (~ $15) or SLK-800/900 (~ $35) with a variable speed high rpm fan (~ $10), one has a very good chance to overclock a Tbred B/Barton to 2.3 - 2.5 GHz (provided PSU and motheboard multiplier x FSB combination not being a problem). So a $25 HSF combo can deliver same level of CPU MHz (to within 100-150 MHz) compared to high end custom (DIY) water cooling in general.

As for the effect of higher voltage (above stock voltage) on CPU life, there have been concerns that higher Vcore would kill or damage or greatly degrade a CPU within weeks or months, .... There have been "safe Vcore" numbers of 1.8, or 1.9, or 2.0 V, ... flowing around that one should observe.

Recently, I did some estimate for the long term failure time based on electromigration adverse effect, this is some results:

hitechjb1 said:
Effect of high Vcore and electromigration on expected failure time for Tbred B/Barton

In the last post, I estimated and related the CPU over voltage with expected 50% sample failure time (life expectancy) based on electromigration emprical results (Black's equation). Here put them into numbers for CPU voltages.

Statistically, for the same level of temperature specification,
A 10% increase in Vcore, would shorten the failure time to 83% of nominal failure time.
A 20% increase in Vcore, would shorten the failure time to 69% of nominal failure time.
A 30% increase in Vcore, would shorten the failure time to 59% of nominal failure time.
A 50% increase in Vcore, would shorten the failure time to 44% of nominal failure time.

So a 30% increase of Vcore reduces the 50% sample failure time to 59%. 30% over stock voltage for Tbred B/Barton are
- 1.95 V for DLT3C, such as the famous Tbred B 1700+/1800+
- 2.08 V for DUT3C, such as the popular 2100+
- 2.15 V for DKT3C, such as the Barton 2500+ or higher.

E.g. If the nominal CPU life expectancy is 10 years, for Tbred B DLT3C
- 30% overvolt to 1.95 V, the number would be down to about 6 years (59%).
- 20% overvolt to 1.80 V, the number would be down to about 7 years (69%).
- 10% overvolt to 1.65 V, the number would be down to about 8.3 years (83%).

They seem to fit nicely w/ the AMD absolute rating 2.05, 2.15 and 2.20 V on Vcore for the DLT3C, DUT3C and DKT3C respectively. Max Vcore for Tbred B and Barton (page 5)


Based on the analysis, we can rule out the guessing numbers of 1.8 - 2.0 - 2.2 V for max Vcore flowing around and also the concern of failure within weeks or months.

As far as temperature to not having additional adverse effect on chip behavior from electromigration on top of voltage, it should be below the max temperature rating of 85/90 C (for TBred B/Barton). So using a temperature cap of 65-70 C is reasonable, since above which most CPU would be overclocked above the break-even point of 10 MHz/C for Tbred B and Barton. Further increase in voltage and temperature beyond 30% and 65 C, even if it is stable, one would get very little return in MHz, but greatly shortening the expected failure time. (Besides temperature is kept under 65-70 C, HSF, motherboard FSB, memory, PSU, ... are assumed not to be limiting the stablity of the system.)

In conjuction with the MHz gain from 10%, 20%, 30% over voltage, one can pick and chose the tradeoff between MHz gain and the reduction of statistical expectancy of CPU failure time.


If one plans to use the CPU for 20 years, or if one is not comfortable of using a 30% higher voltage at which CPU is working above the break-even point (10MHz/C) of frequency and temperature (on air), one would not lose too much MHz even the Vcore is lowered by 10% (~150 mV) at that level, estimated by about 100 MHz. For practical reason, apart from short term benchmarking and fun, trading 100 MHz for 150 mV lower in Vcore is justified.

For details of the analysis,
Effect of high Vcore and electromigration on CPU failure time (page 15)
 
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Ok, I'm a newbie to overclocking. So three quetions:

I'm running an AMD 2600XP 266FSB system that has 'problems.' So I'm starting over by bulding a new system with:

Abit NF7-S
AMD XP 3000+ Barton 400FSB

1) My thinking was I buy the 'best' CPU I can afford and then OC as much as possible from there. But this tread seems to state that getting a 2500+ Baron (333FSB) and OC to 11x200 (either at std voltage or ~1.75V) should produce the same results at running a non-overclocked XP 3000+.

Is that correct? I see the sig lines for a lot of people running the exact same MB I was plannin go get, and the 2500XP.

2) freq x multipler = speed. Yet I see some posts where 10x200=2200Mhz? How is that possible/how does that work.

3) Cooling. Currently I have a pretty basic ATX case (1 case fan in front, 1 in back) and a Coolmaster Aero 7 (copper base) fan + AS3 epoxy. I was going to 'upgrade' to case with 6 case fans (1 top, 1 side, 2 front, and 2 back) but from posts on here that could be overkill.

My current 2600 is running at ~40C most of the time with my current setup. But I'm not sure how much overclocking a 2500 Barton would raise that temp.


Thanks in advance. Great site, I think I will go with the 2500+ Barton.
 
I would definatly recommend you go with the 2500+ over the 3000+ if you are going to oc vejita-sama. Your best OCing bets at this point are a 2500+ (the low end of the bartons) or the 1700+ or 1800+ DLT3C (the low end of the tbred Bs with the lower default vcore).

Unless you are looking for that ever elusive last couple of mhz you will be much better off investing the money saved into some other part of your system (or keeping it in your pocket).

CPU speed is indeed mult x fsb. If somebody has 10x200 = 2200 in their sig its a mistake(probably meant a mult of 11) ;)

As for case cooling well its important but I wouldn't go too overboard. If you have low noise fans 6 isn't too bad but whats important is that you have a tidy case, and fans placed strategically. CPU cooling is whats going to make the biggest impact. I recommend one of the thermal right heatsinks (SK-7 for the best bang for your buck or SLK-800 for better performance or SLK-900 for even better than that).

My last comment would just be don't skimp on the PSU :) Most supplies will run pretty well on default voltage but once you start hitting that thing pretty hard you want a dependable PSU in there.
 
Deathknight thanks. After reading through this site I think I'm starting to understand the whole process a lot better. So I'm going to get the NF7-S and Barton 2500+. One more question:

The guides/reports say you get better results raising the FSB with a low multipler. I notice that a lot of people seem to running the exact same setup at 11x200. Question, how do you know how much to raise the Vcore? And do you have to play with the memorying settings (I know nothing about timing but am reading some online guides about it now).

I'm planning to get PC3200 400Mhz DDR ram. I've got a 420W PSU (single fan) so I think I'm covered. And it appears from other posts that my 'basic case (2 case fans, 1 front, 1 back)' should cut it.

The online reviews seem to place the Aero7+ and SLK-800 about even so I think I safe there too. Lots of new variables to control/learn about. Thanks for all the help.
 
Yes your best results will be with high FSB and lower mult. You are typically better off even sacrificing a little MHZ for more FSB(this is more of a judgement call, after benchmarking both ways).

What I recommend is that you lower your mult down alot and then try and find the limits of your FSB. Once you have established what your max fsb is then you can raise your mult up and try and find the limits of your chip. Its much easier to tackle 1 thing at a time.

As for memory timings well this is another thing that I like to eliminate from the equation for a bit. If you are trying to hit a high fsb and you are not sure if you are getting set back by your memory loosen the timings. Its another judgement call on your part if you want more FSB or tighter timings.

As for vcore well that depends mostly on cooling. The NF7-S offers up to 2.3v vcore but without good cooling you won't want to even come close to that. Probably what you want is to keep raising your cpu speed in increments until it is no longer stable then give your vcore a bump. This is a cyclical process until you just can't get any more speed, can't keep your temps under control or you are not comfortable running any more vcore. hitechjb1 pasted in some excellent info on vcore in this thread so give that a good reading over ;)
 
Got it. So basically, Goal Barton 2500+ OC to 11x200 at 3200+ speed:

1) Drop multipler (say from 11x166 to 8x166).
2) Raise FSB (target 200, I'm not greedy).
3) Raise multipler (target 11, again not greedy)
4) IF necessary raise Vcore

I can use MemTest-86 v3.0 to make sure the freq/multipler are ok. I guess I'm just not sure how to make sure that Vcore is ok/stable. But it seems as long as the CPU temps are ok, the Vcore is ok. And it seems that OC temps of ~50C are acceptable (AMD max is 85).

------------------------------------------------------
Aside - THANKS A LOT FOR ALL THE HELP. Sorry for all the newbie questions.

Sorry for all the questions, this will be my first OC experiment and I want to learn as much as possible prior to attempting it. AND keep everything a simple as possible. That's why I set the goal of Barton 2500+ @ 11x200, lots of people seem to be running this.

Once that's stable I can keep learning/playing around until I understand how 'everything works' to squeeze out that last bit of speed.

I've been out of computers for a while now (professional school) but it's all starting to come together for when I try to purchase everything next weekend. Thanks again...
 
vejita-sama said:

2) Raise FSB (target 200, I'm not greedy).
3) Raise multipler (target 11, again not greedy)


You will be... you will be.... (In my best yoda voice) :D


vejita-sama said:
I can use MemTest-86 v3.0 to make sure the freq/multipler are ok. I guess I'm just not sure how to make sure that Vcore is ok/stable.

Prime95 is the recommended app for testing stability of your CPU speed. Run prime 95 torture test. If your machine is prime95 stable for 12 hours its about as stable as it gets. Now there are certain assumptions that can be made. With a good CPU and good cooling you won't need to run prime95 after raising your speed 50mhz but you will get quite familiar with prime95 when you start squeezing that last bit of speed out.

As for the help well no problem. We are all happy to help get someone else addicted. :attn:
 
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