asus z87 decision help

[ballbreeder]

im pre-inform myself for building an new rig and to give my old rig to my 7 old son
(old rig asus p5e + e8400 oced to 4 ghz on air)

so far im decided to get:

case: NZXT H630
cpu cooling :swiftech h220
psu: corsair AX 860I
ssd: 1x samsung 840 pro 128GB for O.S.
1x samsung 840 pro 256GB for software
hdd: 1x Seagate barracuda 2TB for data
ram: G.Skill tridentx 16GB 1600mhz cl7
cpu: i7-4770k

so far undecided :

mb: asus deluxe or formula (data unknowed yet)
gpu:gtx 770 (waiting for data on msi frozr III and asus dc2 top to final decision)



money isnt an issue but dont want to waste money
the goal is to oc at least to 4.5Ghz but if possible for long run at 5Ghz
its ment to be my rig for 7 years or longer and still can keep up just like my old rig still can handle everything i trow on it now
i do play games but i dont need to game with stereo or 3D screens
dont need to play on the best settings available
dont need to show off my rig

now my questions

beside the features on the mb (that we dont know yet)
the deluxe seems to have better cooling sinks and it is said that the extreme would be better for oc

witch one would be better for me
both are the best in theyre own line but witch line is the best

for the other hardware i will wait to decide untill i see specs benchmarks tests and oc results but feel free to talk about

 

[Knufire]

I'd probably go with the Sabertooth line, I believe it has the longest warranty that ASUS has to offer, but I'd have to double check on that.

The ASUS ROG line, despite all their gaming marketing, is built to be an extreme overclocking board, like liquid nitrogen and dry ice.

For reliability sake, I'd go with a heatsink over the AIO liquid unit. Less moving parts (the pump) the lower chance for failure.

 

[ballbreeder]

wow not much people sharing opinions yet
to knufire :i dont like sabertooth boards but go ahead
you forget that an cpu fan is also an moving part....
and im switching on water cooling for the silence that we need at home lolz
actualy about extreme oc ,everything oced higher then 1 ghz can be considered as extreme oc
the nitro thing is just for records and im sure the deluxe and sabertooth can do those records too
what im aiming for is 1.5ghz oc or more and if i do that on air my rig will die in less then 7 years
or i will be deaf with those fans running at max capacity all the time ,and will get an divorce

back to topic
like i sayed ,just by looking at the motherboard,you can see that deluxe has better cooling sink so i wander if the deluxe will be better for overclocking to 5 ghz or more
than the extreme whos suposed to be the oc item but has less better sink
i hope ill get to see oc reviews battles between them to see if im right or not

 

[Knufire]

wow not much people sharing opinions yet
to knufire :i dont like sabertooth boards but go ahead

Neither do I, but that doesn't change the fact that they have the longest warranty.

you forget that an cpu fan is also an moving part....

Replacing a $10 fan when it dies vs the entire $90 AIO liquid cooling unit. Also, the reliability on the pumps on AIO liquid cooling units have shown to be not that reliable, they have relatively high DOA rates for a computer part.

and im switching on water cooling for the silence that we need at home lolz

Silence depends on the fans you use, not the cooler itself.

actualy about extreme oc ,everything oced higher then 1 ghz can be considered as extreme oc

Lol what? My CPU is overclocked 1.34GHz over it's stock speed. Therefore my off the market air heatsink counts as extreme OCing?

Extreme OCing is usually (and what I meant) refers to any method of subzero or subambient cooling where you're using an active cooling method to lower the temperature of the CPU. This can't be accomplished with traditional air or water coolers because, since you're using air to cool the CPU, the CPU can't ever be below the air temperature in the room.

Extreme OCing would then be things like water loops with chillers, cascade coolers, dry ice, liquid nitrogen, etc.

the nitro thing is just for records and im sure the deluxe and sabertooth can do those records too

That's exactly what the ROG line is designed to do, set records. I see no reason for a normal person who isn't in competitive benchmarking to purchase a board designed around setting records.

what im aiming for is 1.5ghz oc or more and if i do that on air my rig will die in less then 7 years

If you're aiming for a 5GHz OC...it depends on the CPU. If it OCs like Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge does...they do NOT scale with cooling. Essentially, the chip will only get to a certain amount (usually around 4.5 or 4.6GHz relatively easy) and past that point requires a LOT more voltage to get any higher. The difference between and air heatsink and an AIO liquid cooler (which isn't much performance difference in the first place) MIGHT get you another 100MHz, but that's it. A chip that will do 5GHz at reasonable 24/7 voltages is very rare.

Also, because the FSB is locked on these CPUs and you only overclock through the multiplier, the motherboard you use plays a relatively small role in overclocking, unlike the 775 platform you're used to.

or i will be deaf with those fans running at max capacity all the time ,and will get an divorce

Again, AIO liquid coolers don't perform like custom loops do...they're closer to air in terms of performance

like i sayed ,just by looking at the motherboard,you can see that deluxe has better cooling sink so i wander if the deluxe will be better for overclocking to 5 ghz or more

Judging a board by the size of it's heatsinks sounds like a very poor choice to me. I'm sure what's under those heatsinks is of much more importance than how big they are.

than the extreme whos suposed to be the oc item but has less better sink
i hope ill get to see oc reviews battles between them to see if im right or not

And again, 95% of how far you overclock solely depends on what kind of chip you get. Motherboards play a very small role in overclocking with Intel's current design.

 

[ballbreeder]

this post is not to arguing about things
im looking for i7 -4770k haswell not ivy or sandy

i didnt said that the deluxe has bigger sink but said they are better like better cut outs that air can hit and that on all the mayor parts while the extreme is more flat with less cut outs

i cant Judge what materials theyve used as evaporators but the visualy part is heat harded plastic but on the deluxe they have put extra heatsink above

the x60 looped has an big radiator 280mm lenght and 140 mm large with 2 140 silent fans on it and on reviews round up he gets very close to custom builds and beats the dh-14 noctua at every way but not much at idle

i dunno the reliability of those pumps and i was already scouting the net for info on it but where the most looped ones only have 2 or 3 year warrenty the kraken has 5 years

most of the information where you are right i already knew

like i also said in first post money is not an issue if the kraken breaks down but does what i need him todo i just buy another one and here it cost 140 euros and it would not feel as wasted money

i need the major parts of the rig to be able to handle everything for long time with aditional possibility to upgrade more in the actual time frame that i need upgrade

on my own of 25 years experiance of rigs i came across with world upgrade compatibility problems ,while my rig Always has passes without problems

keep in mind that windows 128 bit ,ddr4,multicore game processor use,3000mhz ram,etc are just around the corner and i want the ability if needed and if physical possible todo the upgrade and not to build an full new rig every 2years

my goal with this post was to help me to decide between the extreme or deluxe with the information at hand atm

if you have the knowledge or an opinion about theVI versions pls do post
if you have life experiance with the existand parts pls do post

i dont want to waste my time on argueing about water or air cooling its like the positif or negatif air flow in an case who only got resolved after many years with scientific proof


man cutting down an wall text still is an wall text im so sorry ppl

 

[Knufire]

Again, both the Extreme and Deluxe are the wrong choice, I stand by my. original recommendation. The Extreme is built for subzero cooling and such. Some people wonder why they even ship it with heatsinks as most people who use the board to its potential strip them off.

The Deluxe is expensive because of all the features and connectivity options it comes with. It is not more robustly built, etc, than any of the other ASUS standard series boards.

Also, what those heatsinks cool are the VRMs, which are the part of the motherboard that deliver power to the CPU. Because Intel CPUs draw relatively small amounts of power compared to past generations (and Haswell even less), they are not under much stress at all. The size of some of those heatsinks are completely unnecessary on modern motherboard and more for show than usefulness (same with RAM, DDR3 is fine without heatsinks).

128bit Windows, never heard anything about it. DDR4 will probably require you to get a new motherboard. 3000MHz RAM...unnecessary (as RAM is already ridiculously fast compared to the rest of a computer and faster RAM offers near zero real world performance benefits).

I never said water cooling performed. worse. My points were that better cooling doesn't not necessarily mean a better overclock on current CPU designs, and that people tend to have WAY more issues with all in one water coolers than heatsinks or properly set up custom loops.

I feel like you are buying unnecessarily expensive parts because you think they're better for your use, when in fact, they're not.

 

[ballbreeder]

now youre latest post reflect the truth

about windows 128 its speculayed to be the windows 9 but microsoft said they are working on the 128 bit but it would be more realistic for win 10 time frame (i know that rumors has Always been around for the 128 bit but this time its intel it self who has talked about)

the watercooling isnt ment to be only an higher overclock tool but mostly to keep the cpu cooler to live longer at the 4.5 or 5 or what ever the final ghz i will end up using

so far i didnt read much bad things on the x60 and then it was mostly whining kids who buyed the thing that was to big for theyre case
in my previous post i said the x60 to have 5 years warrenty but mented to say that ntxz is thinking about to make it 5 years its 2 years atm and im hoping they will change it at or after comptex

the sabertooth isnt an option for me. i totaly disliked it and a few friends had bad experience with it but i know that theyre are ppl happy about it


i agree about the sink but switching to water made me concern about the board temp and those sink could help if it will raise to much (there are notes around about problems with chipset cooling while cpu water cooling)
im not an real life expert on the water coolings and for that have to base my opinion from the net

intel stated that they have fixed the temp issue on the 3770k with the 4770k so my guts are saying that cooling will effect again on the clocks the only way to be sure is to wait ...

the low voltage and temp are about the c6 and c7 state at sleepmode(yes i do my home work lol)
there is an reason that intel has raised the TDP and the chinees benchmark showed that haswell get higher temp at 4 ghz than the 3770k so based on this i would say that the VRM will get warm

there are benchmarks around it from china oced to 5ghz at 0.9 v but that wasnt the voltage of the cpu but the vrm i gues cpu-z gona have to adjust that and those china ppl already told that voltage where 1.3 + for the cpu

i realise that my post is kind of early because the important parts arent even out yet but i suspect that sites like this already are testing stuff but just arent allowed to give the info until comptex so i will bite my nails and scan the net for info

 

[txus.palacios]

Get the cheapest Z87 board from a reputable manufacturer. Forget about ROGs, TUFs, Deluxes unless you explicitly require so (LN2 overclockers can really benefit from ROG features, TUF is a gimmick, and so is the Deluxe).

I would seriously consider ASRock boards, as they've been pretty nice this generation, with pretty prices. And, really, don't believe ads that say "World record set with this board!! Amazing!! Awesome!!". It's not about the boards, it's about the actual silicon die. You roll the die when you buy a CPU and you might be lucky and get a nice overclocker or one that crashes with +1MHz. Also, 5GHz @ 0.9V was probably not stable, and it was just a CPUZ validation . CPUZ does not even support Haswell yet.

Consider a heatsink if you want a quiet system (quiet != silent), or a H220 / proper watercooling, I've friends that use LCLC systems and whine about noise pumps.

C6/C7 states are nothing to worry about for the standard user, really. It's not that big of a deal.

128-bit OSes? Have we got over the theoretical limit of 16EB of memory? I don't think so, thus, there's no reason to even think of 128-bit OSes.

 

[ballbreeder]

hum ive writed an tekst wall but deleted it

WaTa made me doubt between x60 and h220

it does feel strange that you guys already advice other lines or other brands on stuff that isnt released yet

beside the basic features we dont know nothing about them we dont know how compatible they are with the haswell and how they operate or oc

i understand that an opinion can be made of the previous lines and opinion can be made
by looking at the electronics on the board but we still have to wait until they release it and that ppl post theyre stats

am an asus guy Always have buyed asus and it Always worked out well and never had any issue with it so i will stay by asus

im 42 and i try to keep me informed over the years about pc s so most of the postings i knew already

i dont care how much it cost aslong it works how i want it to work for the time lap i want it to work and my aim for this rig is set for 7 years

i doubt that the cheapest board will get 5ghz or higher and will run 7 years long at that clock but i will believe they can handle it for 2 or 3 years if they are compatible

about ads... i dont read ads,i dont view ads,i dont believe ads,but i know that hidden ads can screw you like reviews ,test, benchmarks and forum site who favorize some brand to get more free stuff and most of the time i can pick them out
not Always on instance...

Always funny when ppl posting "you dont need that " because needs depends on how youre looking at the need

my question in this thread is help me choose between the asus z87 extreme VI and asus z87 Deluxe and that with the info we got so far on those new lines

and not "advice pls on an z87 mb"

and last but not least wasting money for me is:

buying stuff that dont do what i want it to do
so will the extreme do what i want ? will the deluxe do what i want?

mmm do i know what i want?

 

[Knufire]

You are making problems where there are none and have concerns where their shouldn't be. And I'm sorry, but there is a certain stigma that people who go straight for the most expensive parts out usually have no clue what they're doing. If you think you know more than we do, then why would you ignore our advice?

Another call sign of someone who doesn't know what they're doing is brand loyalty, fyi. All you're doing is eliminating other options on nothing other than personal bias. Brand loyalty is stupid]/u] and should be thrown out the window. And I find it funny how you have brand loyalty to the single component manufacturer that I've seen the most marketing from. All our recommendation, as much as possible, are based on scientific data and tests as much as possible, because personal opinions are usually flawed on topics such as these.

That aside, some points.

• There was a significant design change going from 1366/1156 to 1155 CPUs in that the BLCK of the CPUs was locked and all overclocking was done on the multiplier. The result of this design change is that the motherboard you are using has a MINIMAL impact on your overclocking results. The only major part of the motherboard that affects the CPU in overclocking these are the VRMs, and as long as they can supply the CPU with enough power without overheating, MORE VRMs and MORE cooling on them results in NO benefit.
• Along those lines, cooler does not mean it will last longer. It is not a linear relationship. VRMs running at 40C and VRMs running at 70C are probably going to last about the same length of time. Heat related lifespan problems only occur when you start to get close to the maximum operating temperature.
• Stuff like the CPU, GPU, RAM, and motherboard (chip based parts) are not going to die in 7 years unless you are operating them at near max temperature
• More CPU cooling does not mean a higher overclock with this design. Chips overclock easily until a certain point, and are EXTREMELY hard to get to overclock past that point. Most (IB based) chips make it to 4.5GHz. Few make it to 5GHz, even with high end cooling. And this is completely irrespective of the motherboard. At voltages that are acceptable for 24/7 usage, the power a CPU draws (since they're so power efficeint, and Haswell moreso) do NOT draw a lot of power, and therefore do NOT need a high end motherboard to support it.
• There was never a temperature issue with Ivy Bridge. Overreactions and bad press made it seem so.
• 0.9V wasn't the VRM voltage in that CPU-Z shot, it was the core voltage. But that was CPU-Z, the CPU only had to be stable long enough for them to boot and grab the screenshot, which isn't stable at all.
• They raised the TDP by 8w, which is barely anything. We also don't know whether this came from the CPU itself or the iGPU inside the CPU.
• A single fan blowing on the VRM section is sufficient airflow to keep them cool under any reasonable overclock, assuming their heatsinked.
• Similar to what I said before, keep the CPU around 10-15C away from TJMax, and it will last 7 years. Cooler than that probably won't make it last longer.

Also, I don't care about what you want, I care about what you need to accomplish your purposes, and I have a moral problem with recommending overkill products and advising someone to waste money that they don't need to spend. A computer is a tool to accomplish some other means, and should be treated as such, not a toy. Maybe you are willing to spend more to get every exact little thing you want, but I tend to go for 95% of the functionality at 50% of the cost because my money is more important to me than my computer is.

And please, if you're 42 and keep up with computers, then I assume you are able to type with proper punctuation and grammar in your posts. No offense, but it just makes it easier to read.

And for the simple answer, the Extreme, Deluxe, and probably the upper 50% of all Z87 boards will probably accomplish what you want if they're like previous generations, so I fail to see to go for what will probably be in the most expensive top 5%.

 

[wingman99]

I would not try to future proof for 7 years that is to long, things change after 3 years all the time in PCs

 

[Bobnova]

Short answer: we don't know enough yet to even begin to recommend anything.

Longer answer: future proofing is a lost cause. We know nothing of how any of the boards perform at this point, or about their BIOS options, or their overclocking, put anything at all beyond their come schemes. Be patient.

 

[WaTaGuMp]

You are making problems where there are none and have concerns where their shouldn't be. And I'm sorry, but there is a certain stigma that people who go straight for the most expensive parts out usually have no clue what they're doing. If you think you know more than we do, then why would you ignore our advice?

Another call sign of someone who doesn't know what they're doing is brand loyalty, fyi. All you're doing is eliminating other options on nothing other than personal bias. Brand loyalty is stupid]/u] and should be thrown out the window. And I find it funny how you have brand loyalty to the single component manufacturer that I've seen the most marketing from. All our recommendation, as much as possible, are based on scientific data and tests as much as possible, because personal opinions are usually flawed on topics such as these.

That aside, some points.

• There was a significant design change going from 1366/1156 to 1155 CPUs in that the BLCK of the CPUs was locked and all overclocking was done on the multiplier. The result of this design change is that the motherboard you are using has a MINIMAL impact on your overclocking results. The only major part of the motherboard that affects the CPU in overclocking these are the VRMs, and as long as they can supply the CPU with enough power without overheating, MORE VRMs and MORE cooling on them results in NO benefit.
• Along those lines, cooler does not mean it will last longer. It is not a linear relationship. VRMs running at 40C and VRMs running at 70C are probably going to last about the same length of time. Heat related lifespan problems only occur when you start to get close to the maximum operating temperature.
• Stuff like the CPU, GPU, RAM, and motherboard (chip based parts) are not going to die in 7 years unless you are operating them at near max temperature
• More CPU cooling does not mean a higher overclock with this design. Chips overclock easily until a certain point, and are EXTREMELY hard to get to overclock past that point. Most (IB based) chips make it to 4.5GHz. Few make it to 5GHz, even with high end cooling. And this is completely irrespective of the motherboard. At voltages that are acceptable for 24/7 usage, the power a CPU draws (since they're so power efficeint, and Haswell moreso) do NOT draw a lot of power, and therefore do NOT need a high end motherboard to support it.
• There was never a temperature issue with Ivy Bridge. Overreactions and bad press made it seem so.
• 0.9V wasn't the VRM voltage in that CPU-Z shot, it was the core voltage. But that was CPU-Z, the CPU only had to be stable long enough for them to boot and grab the screenshot, which isn't stable at all.
• They raised the TDP by 8w, which is barely anything. We also don't know whether this came from the CPU itself or the iGPU inside the CPU.
• A single fan blowing on the VRM section is sufficient airflow to keep them cool under any reasonable overclock, assuming their heatsinked.
• Similar to what I said before, keep the CPU around 10-15C away from TJMax, and it will last 7 years. Cooler than that probably won't make it last longer.

Also, I don't care about what you want, I care about what you need to accomplish your purposes, and I have a moral problem with recommending overkill products and advising someone to waste money that they don't need to spend. A computer is a tool to accomplish some other means, and should be treated as such, not a toy. Maybe you are willing to spend more to get every exact little thing you want, but I tend to go for 95% of the functionality at 50% of the cost because my money is more important to me than my computer is.

And please, if you're 42 and keep up with computers, then I assume you are able to type with proper punctuation and grammar in your posts. No offense, but it just makes it easier to read.

And for the simple answer, the Extreme, Deluxe, and probably the upper 50% of all Z87 boards will probably accomplish what you want if they're like previous generations, so I fail to see to go for what will probably be in the most expensive top 5%.

Pretty obvious English isn't his first language, have a heart.

 

[Knufire]

If it isn't, that's okay, I was going under the assumption that it was. A lot of people (including me in the past) neglect to use proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation on forums just because it's a less formal environment, etc, etc.

 

[ballbreeder]

my natif language is dutch

ill keep it short ...not


the 4770k and 4750k have BCLK unlocked

msi and gygabyte did fail in my rig then i started with asus and they never failed
i didnt buyed any asus parts based on marketing talk but like my latest build it was this forum who adviced to get the asus p5e deluxe that had flawless compatibility with the E8400 chip who had many stats post of oc on air between 4 to 4.3 ghz and also for the asus gtx 460d2 top

at the sandy pre-time it was an must to buy an top end mb to have the compatibility and ability
i dont know if its still needed on the sandy and ivy
for haswell we still have to wait

my choice of cases is based on scientific proof of the airflow that 2 univercitiy did with tomsharware

on other hardware its the spec and stats and i read it all on all brands and types

twice youre talking about the blocked BLCK but my first post said already im thinking to use the haswells k type (undecided 4770k) and they are unlocked

and dont say im brand loyal because i was decided on the nzxt x60 and now gona buy the swiftech h220 and that has been changed because advice from somebody on this forum

beside me searching info on the net i also talk with freelance ITrs who have some knowledge with oc just not the ultimated ones
one of my IT friend was at the line-up of asus and asrock and no he didnt told me secrets
he knew i was looking around for new rig and he sayed keep an eye on the asus ones

im sure he will tell me more details after comptex

theyre werent flaws in design of the 3770k only an flaw in the people usage of the 3770k
but its intels own fault on the bad talk , after smart ppl had found an solution on the problem , intel has kept building the chip as they did at start and not used the fixed solution

again intel said now there was an problem and they have fixed it with the 4770k dunno about the other cpus

you could also say im an loyal brand follower about intel cpus or nvidea but i already looked at amd and radeon and they already didnt passed my hum ..quality check ...
not saying they are bad but against intel/nvidea the choice is made fast

now if ARM would start making cpu s under own name then maybe ....


i hoped haswell would have 6 cores tobad its not , if it was i would have been happy with 4 GHz on decend price with the 4750k
for the ivy -e (who should come out in september) i m not gona wait its way overpriced for my taste

if you look at the case im on you would have seen that you can put an fan in there who you can change direction where to blow on the mb

technicly all electric componants has an garanty of 7 year working life on normal usage
around 7 years the transistors, diodes ,etc start to die in processors
the longlife quality is based on howmany of those componants are on it to keep the processor working at the speed hes ment to be working so in the beginning you will not notice about the processor componants are dieing
it is knowed that unnormal usage made this parts die faster because of the higher voltage giving aditional heat
that heat can be decipated by sinks or coolers and hold off the speed of dieing parts
the exact time frame of dieing parts is uniek and so hard to pinpoint the die time

this was some science of electic componants

so the lifespan of hardware depends on the quality (the amount of transistors;etc and the material resistance to heat and the ability to disperce heat)

if you build or upgrade every 2,3 years a pc this doesnt matter to you because the chance that the componant die in that time frame is almost inexistand unless youre an ultimated ocer /cooler so buying cheap mb is the right choice and youre desision should be based on features

for me aiming for atleast 7 years this does matter thats why im getting the wc thats why im looking at asus and why im looking at the top end mb
my concerns are based on science

i can keep on on more science but this text wall is already to big to continue

i know that people dont know that or dont care about it they just care about plug and play and to get better result then the guy who posted before him or sitting next to him in class
i call that the "show off syndrom" and its typical human

i have the feeling you have the knowledge but showed the wrong way
if i give advice i Always check the stuff that the person has posted or telling me

lets say its the autisme in me who wants to be 100% sure

ps : to know the science doesnt mean you know it all ,real life experience is as equal important then the science thats why im on forums ...

 

[Bobnova]

Not unlocked like 775 was, gear ratios that may or may not work, like x79.

 

[ballbreeder]

so far that i know is that multiplier and BCLK are unlocked and ram is dislocked from it

for fun watch my IT friend video lolz

 

[Bobnova]

It's unlocked like sb-e. You get a few straps, 100, 125, 150, etc. Then you can +/- 4 to 8 mhz from there.

 

[ballbreeder]

yea ive readed about the staps

fashion whise the gigabyte line up looks nice

gona look at msi line up

 

[Knufire]

That's the difference between you and me. If you're willing to spend as much money as you can to be absolutely 100% sure than you can do anything you want to it and it'll last 7 years, be my guest. I will gladly spend half the amount and be 90% sure that it will last 7 years.