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- Mar 22, 2003
- Location
- Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit
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AudioEngine and AudioTrak audiophile quailty for computers.
- Thread starter Hookem
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2002
You're right. I was half asleep and mistaken when I posted. It's still great you don't have to take a solder iron to the card to change out the opamps.Its the opamps you can swap, not the DAC.
The AuzenTech Auzen X-Fi Prelude looks good but is almost 3x the price. The AuzenTech might play game sounds better as it's supposed to support EAX. Xonar D2/PM might sound better if you have the bux and special 'golden' ears.
ASUS vs. Auzentech http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,2845,2268255,00.asp
@Sir Barton, how do you deal with contact resistance on those opamp chips as neither chip or socket has gold plating?
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OP
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Location
- Houston Texas
- Thread Starter
- #83
For gaming and movies...This thread is probably not a good place to look for feedback.
I you do however want "audiophile" sound quality that will not break the bank or leaving you with the "sorry about you wallet" syndrome...There is some good advice here.
Mostly greared towards "high sound quality" stereo 2.0 or 2.1 systems in the 700 to 800 dolllar range.
Or that is what I am looking for...Shucks...A5's with coupon 324 bones...Fubar II 140.00 duckies...Velodyne VX-10 for 150.00 dollars...Pretty smoking sound.
I am sure there are USB/DAC T-Amp paired with non active speakers in the same price range that will put the above combination to shame.
Built computers for years...Stuck with the "computer" stuff...Now I see and hear a different light.
I you do however want "audiophile" sound quality that will not break the bank or leaving you with the "sorry about you wallet" syndrome...There is some good advice here.
Mostly greared towards "high sound quality" stereo 2.0 or 2.1 systems in the 700 to 800 dolllar range.
Or that is what I am looking for...Shucks...A5's with coupon 324 bones...Fubar II 140.00 duckies...Velodyne VX-10 for 150.00 dollars...Pretty smoking sound.
I am sure there are USB/DAC T-Amp paired with non active speakers in the same price range that will put the above combination to shame.
Built computers for years...Stuck with the "computer" stuff...Now I see and hear a different light.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2003
- Location
- Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit
Thats how it was for me. Once you get into audiophile type stuff, you find out just how crappy all of those desktop computer speakers really are. Even if youre not a music listener, but enjoy good sound from your movies and games, a 2.0 or 2.1 bookshelf/sub/amp combo will provide far better sound than any PC speaker system you can get. A good rule to live by....2 good speakers will always sound better than 5 or more mediocre speakers.
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2002
My current PC/bedroom audio system is my Asus Commando AD 1988B SoundMAX BlackHawk Integrated HD Audio, SPDIF optical link, Yamaha RX-V450 receiver and a pair of vintage AR3a speakers. Source: EAC/WavPack rips of my CDs and various ripped ShoutCast mp3 streams. Good bass from the 12" woofers so no sub required. Stereo sounds great with good components and source material.
Last edited:
OP
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Location
- Houston Texas
- Thread Starter
- #86
Yeah I could not believe how different the sound quality is affected by the stuff you are feeding them.
I have 1.5k CD's...That I had ripped as 192kbs WMA's...I love WMP 11's interface and thought 192kbs was plenty good....WRONG...The A5's sounded so much better playing the CD versus the WMA's.
So I ripped the stuff that I really listen to alot into 320kbs MP3's...WOW...Big difference...In the process of ripping my entire collection to FLAC...What a pain...Bought another hard drive and was just going to rip them as WAV's...But as luck would have it I just bought a buddy's CD collection...Another 450 CD's...Now I am sitting on almost 2k CD's.
Guy just mailed the Fubar II today...Paid him last week with a MO sent USPS Priority and he said he just got it today...He must live in BEF...And of course I am on the list over at Florida Music for the next batch of Audiotrak HD2's...They are supposed to be getting 40 of them.
I have a killer pair of Polk Audio Bookshelf speakers that have been retired and will be buying a Trends Audio T/Amp and check out that combination...That and buying one of the HSU8 subs from parts express.
I gotta give props once again to our boys Lodrin and SirBarton for hipping me to the Audioengine, Audiotrak world of computer as source high quality sound.
Word of advice if you are considering the Audiotrak Prodigy HD2...Order it now...If not you will probably end up waiting a coupld of months like I have.
I have 1.5k CD's...That I had ripped as 192kbs WMA's...I love WMP 11's interface and thought 192kbs was plenty good....WRONG...The A5's sounded so much better playing the CD versus the WMA's.
So I ripped the stuff that I really listen to alot into 320kbs MP3's...WOW...Big difference...In the process of ripping my entire collection to FLAC...What a pain...Bought another hard drive and was just going to rip them as WAV's...But as luck would have it I just bought a buddy's CD collection...Another 450 CD's...Now I am sitting on almost 2k CD's.
Guy just mailed the Fubar II today...Paid him last week with a MO sent USPS Priority and he said he just got it today...He must live in BEF...And of course I am on the list over at Florida Music for the next batch of Audiotrak HD2's...They are supposed to be getting 40 of them.
I have a killer pair of Polk Audio Bookshelf speakers that have been retired and will be buying a Trends Audio T/Amp and check out that combination...That and buying one of the HSU8 subs from parts express.
I gotta give props once again to our boys Lodrin and SirBarton for hipping me to the Audioengine, Audiotrak world of computer as source high quality sound.
Word of advice if you are considering the Audiotrak Prodigy HD2...Order it now...If not you will probably end up waiting a coupld of months like I have.
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2002
Flac and WavPack are lossless bit for bit accurate to the original wav files and compress to ~50-60% of the original file size but unlike wav files, you can tag them with meta data like album, artist, song title, year, etc.
OP
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Location
- Houston Texas
- Thread Starter
- #88
Kinda lost on this not being able to tag the WAV files with album, artist, song title, year business.
I am building a customer box right now and just downloaded and installed WMP 11.
Set it up to rip as WAV's just to check it out...Put the CD in and WMP pulled up the artwork, song titles, year, artist, contributing yadda yadda yadda.
So what is it that WAV's ripped in WMP 11 cannot do ???
Sorry bout the newbie question...Took me forever to get Foobar to rip as FLAC's...I have heard you cannot tag WAV's...But I just dont get what it is not doing.
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2002
You can include some information in the wav file names but it still isn't meta data like tagging does. Tagging can give you a lot more information about the file like what the source was, how long it is, album art and other things.
Hydrogenaudio has a great forum for various music codecs that you can learn about.
Hydrogenaudio has a great forum for various music codecs that you can learn about.
Guys, I have a M-Audio Audiophile 2496 which I bought a few years back with my Swan M-200 speakers. The sounds is pretty good!
However after reading this thread, I am thinking of upgrading once I build a new system later this year. Possibly getting one of these new HD2 soundcards and A5 speakers maybe. My question is how would my current system compare to this new setup? Will it really be that much of a difference?
I don't play any games so its only for HQ audio sound\music..
* I also have a dedicated powered subwoofer hooked up which is why I was looking into a card with a dedicated sub connection (1212m)... ???
However after reading this thread, I am thinking of upgrading once I build a new system later this year. Possibly getting one of these new HD2 soundcards and A5 speakers maybe. My question is how would my current system compare to this new setup? Will it really be that much of a difference?
I don't play any games so its only for HQ audio sound\music..
* I also have a dedicated powered subwoofer hooked up which is why I was looking into a card with a dedicated sub connection (1212m)... ???
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2003
- Location
- Fort Pontchartrain du Détroit
Ive never heard the Swans or the Audio Engines, but if you want to hook a powered sub to your system youd need a passive preamp with 2x line-outs. One of the outs would go to your speakers, and the other to the sub. The best part about a passive preamp is that it will let you control the volume without having to touch the knob on the speaker. Im thinking of buying a passive tube preamp from www.pacificvalve.us so I can run a subwoofer in conjunction with my T-Amp. The tube preamp should add a nice touch to the extremely detailed T-Amp.
Barton, actually I have my sub hooked up to my audio card by simply using a Monster rca y-adapter: one set going to the speakers and the other going to the sub...Perhaps the pre-amp would be better
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2002
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2002
- Location
- Branford, CT USA
Here's an option which circumvents what has been and remains to be the reason PC-Audio is notoriously BAD.
The sound card itself or on-board sound device cannot deliver a "clean signal" because it's awash in a sea of EMI. Even if you built a lead shielded around card that noise I referred to enters the circuitry through the PCI or PCIe slot.
The only viable option for improving PC-Audio is an external solution and one which utilizes the USB port. 20-years ago when I was deep into high end, I brokered pre-owned hardware just to listen and examine the design philosophies and parts spec. Such as why they used WIMA resistors or Octave caps. Why Kimber Cable internal wiring was silver or copper and where it was used. Why point to point wiring is hands down a sonic improvement over a semi-conductive treated surface or PCB. Tubes versus Transistors, mosfetts J-Fetts. Toroidal and hand wound silver transformers. The separation of DAC from the transport / laser. External moving coils, turntable versus digital. Digital speakers versus analog (ultimately the digital signal will still just end up moving air so it will be analog).
And then applying my study of Cognitive Science/Neurophilosophy which studies the brain's "circuitry" which ironically is digital! While all our senses have evolved over millions of years to "perceive" an analog world (optical, Olfactory etc.) each of our senses is essentially an A/D circuit. The Optical system is a lens which focuses light onto cones/rods which eventually stimulates nerves which send electrical impulses to the brain which then uses neurons which then break these down into synaptic activity either the synapse is on/off (firing/not firing) hence binary, hence digital.
You may consider all this has nothing to do with the topic or why we reinforce MDF to build box speakers or prefer the warmth of a vacuum tube over a transistor, but it is all correlated. All audio components do in the end is to trick our brains by creating a 3-dimensional representation (if they're good) in the mind's eye and send sound pressure waves of the same type as those which originally picked up by the recording mic. In the end were just moving air. The Universal Auditory Fart of the result of a speaker albeit a panel lighter then air per square inch such as found in electrostatics or ribbons or a kevlar cone, which are judged by their moving mass. Obviously the lighter the mass of the driver the more rapidly it can be moved. Whether you like your air pressure waves to resemble Mozart or Poi Dog Pondering the quality of the system will determine how "live" that sound seems.
The person who claimed Klipsch are not "High End" probably never heard Klipsch Cornwall's driven by OTL amps, but more importantly while Klipsh aren't as precise and as adept at imaging as other drivers their founder IS the personification of High End, he devoted his life to the Audiophile within us and its insulting to his work to make such a claim, Klipsh and companies such as Western Electric whom made sound systems for theatres are to High End what the old punch-card IBM mainframes are to the modern PC. The famous and arguably best sounding valve on the planet the 300B was designed prior to 1900 for telephone amplication and today some of the best vacuum tube amps are based on these. Simply Google High End 300B and see where it takes you.
Now to the point. I have re-entered the Audiophile world which I quit High End over 10 years ago because of the compulsion, the cost, but mostly because all I was doing was listening to hardware instead of the music. I am now writing reviews on USB DAC integrated tubes amps which have come to light for several reasons. These affordable products are the catalyst to introduce millions to a levekl of sound 90% of the population will never hear. What was only enjoyed and coveted by a few with the funds or "secret" knowledge to find used gear. But any music lover should hear this level of sound and now can. WQhat happened to me the first time I got into Audiophilia happens to many who get into overclocking (and then cooling). We spend so much time reading and studying and overclocking we forget what we got our PC for in the first place.
There have been some major changes in High End since I was into it, some bad some good some hard to tell. First of all the prices have changed dramatically with a new found interest in the integrated amplifier. Integrated tube amps were common in early audio then they evaporated as the reductionists separated every stage in every process. Example: separate DACs. transports and their power sources. Separate Preamps, Moving Coils, etc. Today with most audio catering to digital sources (CD music files) integrated amps make sense because they are nothing more then an op-amp/ linestage.
You can save a lot by building in a single chassis obviously extremes of this aren't good i.e. the Receiver (solid state receivers brought Audio to a new low). The exceptions are Sansui's whom took as much pride in designing and building receivers as well as Krell builds amps. Check out this thread with MANY internal shots of vintage Sansui's and see what a real receiver can look like.
OK so I am testing the Tecon Model 55 integrated amp with USB DAC based on the excellent Burr Brown PCM2707 DAC. This little amp is just 5W per channel so obviously high;y efficient speakers are a must. I am testing Cain & Cain Abbys these are a crossoverless single driver design.
You use your USB out to the integrated amp which cost under $700 for what is effectively a Single Ended Pentode (Similar to Single Ended Triode or SET amp) and your already ahead of the game by a mile. You went from solid state junk (forget chip-amps their highly overrated) your using the best amplifying device ever invented the vacuum tube or valve in in a single ended design your one step close to an OTL (output transformerless).
The sound is amazing and you don't need Cain & Cain speakers to have loud volume, there are many highly efficient single driver speakers. OK why single drivers, because you eliminate more junk in the signal path the Cross Over which can cost a lot of cash when done correctly. A decent crossover can cost more then these vacuum tube amps with USB. With a single driver you have a single source and the full range of sound over it.
I can quote a hundred bookshelf and 20-floostanding speakers all single driver or at least highly efficient under $900 many under $500 and mate them to the Tecon or Glow Amp (I am also testing the Glow and the Decco) what does this have to with the topic.
While I have tested both the Audioengine speakers the 2's are more versatile as far as connectors the 5's are better sounding simply because they give you more of it and a subwoofer increases the number of components this making making synergy more difficult. These are both still toroidal transformer based amplifiers in a speaker enclosure, no where near the best environment for a amp.
And the sound card indeed any sound card limits you. While you switch among sound cards your only hearing differences in limitations. Once the DAC and other sensitive circuitry is re-located outside the PC box, everything changes in a BIG way. The sound opens up free of EMI (to much greater extent anyway) and now you can uses valves for an amplifier with passive speakers.
The debate in Hugh End between solid state and valves is easily disguised when you hear people reviewing $50,000 solid amps and still describing the sound as "tube like" the valve is where it's at, At the very least you should hear some good valve amps. Bottom line you get an integrated valve amp single ended to boot with a better DAC for under $500 and a mini-monitor for under $400 and you have a true entry level High End system and are still able to play everything from your PC, Internet.
The sound card itself or on-board sound device cannot deliver a "clean signal" because it's awash in a sea of EMI. Even if you built a lead shielded around card that noise I referred to enters the circuitry through the PCI or PCIe slot.
The only viable option for improving PC-Audio is an external solution and one which utilizes the USB port. 20-years ago when I was deep into high end, I brokered pre-owned hardware just to listen and examine the design philosophies and parts spec. Such as why they used WIMA resistors or Octave caps. Why Kimber Cable internal wiring was silver or copper and where it was used. Why point to point wiring is hands down a sonic improvement over a semi-conductive treated surface or PCB. Tubes versus Transistors, mosfetts J-Fetts. Toroidal and hand wound silver transformers. The separation of DAC from the transport / laser. External moving coils, turntable versus digital. Digital speakers versus analog (ultimately the digital signal will still just end up moving air so it will be analog).
And then applying my study of Cognitive Science/Neurophilosophy which studies the brain's "circuitry" which ironically is digital! While all our senses have evolved over millions of years to "perceive" an analog world (optical, Olfactory etc.) each of our senses is essentially an A/D circuit. The Optical system is a lens which focuses light onto cones/rods which eventually stimulates nerves which send electrical impulses to the brain which then uses neurons which then break these down into synaptic activity either the synapse is on/off (firing/not firing) hence binary, hence digital.
You may consider all this has nothing to do with the topic or why we reinforce MDF to build box speakers or prefer the warmth of a vacuum tube over a transistor, but it is all correlated. All audio components do in the end is to trick our brains by creating a 3-dimensional representation (if they're good) in the mind's eye and send sound pressure waves of the same type as those which originally picked up by the recording mic. In the end were just moving air. The Universal Auditory Fart of the result of a speaker albeit a panel lighter then air per square inch such as found in electrostatics or ribbons or a kevlar cone, which are judged by their moving mass. Obviously the lighter the mass of the driver the more rapidly it can be moved. Whether you like your air pressure waves to resemble Mozart or Poi Dog Pondering the quality of the system will determine how "live" that sound seems.
The person who claimed Klipsch are not "High End" probably never heard Klipsch Cornwall's driven by OTL amps, but more importantly while Klipsh aren't as precise and as adept at imaging as other drivers their founder IS the personification of High End, he devoted his life to the Audiophile within us and its insulting to his work to make such a claim, Klipsh and companies such as Western Electric whom made sound systems for theatres are to High End what the old punch-card IBM mainframes are to the modern PC. The famous and arguably best sounding valve on the planet the 300B was designed prior to 1900 for telephone amplication and today some of the best vacuum tube amps are based on these. Simply Google High End 300B and see where it takes you.
Now to the point. I have re-entered the Audiophile world which I quit High End over 10 years ago because of the compulsion, the cost, but mostly because all I was doing was listening to hardware instead of the music. I am now writing reviews on USB DAC integrated tubes amps which have come to light for several reasons. These affordable products are the catalyst to introduce millions to a levekl of sound 90% of the population will never hear. What was only enjoyed and coveted by a few with the funds or "secret" knowledge to find used gear. But any music lover should hear this level of sound and now can. WQhat happened to me the first time I got into Audiophilia happens to many who get into overclocking (and then cooling). We spend so much time reading and studying and overclocking we forget what we got our PC for in the first place.
There have been some major changes in High End since I was into it, some bad some good some hard to tell. First of all the prices have changed dramatically with a new found interest in the integrated amplifier. Integrated tube amps were common in early audio then they evaporated as the reductionists separated every stage in every process. Example: separate DACs. transports and their power sources. Separate Preamps, Moving Coils, etc. Today with most audio catering to digital sources (CD music files) integrated amps make sense because they are nothing more then an op-amp/ linestage.
You can save a lot by building in a single chassis obviously extremes of this aren't good i.e. the Receiver (solid state receivers brought Audio to a new low). The exceptions are Sansui's whom took as much pride in designing and building receivers as well as Krell builds amps. Check out this thread with MANY internal shots of vintage Sansui's and see what a real receiver can look like.
OK so I am testing the Tecon Model 55 integrated amp with USB DAC based on the excellent Burr Brown PCM2707 DAC. This little amp is just 5W per channel so obviously high;y efficient speakers are a must. I am testing Cain & Cain Abbys these are a crossoverless single driver design.
You use your USB out to the integrated amp which cost under $700 for what is effectively a Single Ended Pentode (Similar to Single Ended Triode or SET amp) and your already ahead of the game by a mile. You went from solid state junk (forget chip-amps their highly overrated) your using the best amplifying device ever invented the vacuum tube or valve in in a single ended design your one step close to an OTL (output transformerless).
The sound is amazing and you don't need Cain & Cain speakers to have loud volume, there are many highly efficient single driver speakers. OK why single drivers, because you eliminate more junk in the signal path the Cross Over which can cost a lot of cash when done correctly. A decent crossover can cost more then these vacuum tube amps with USB. With a single driver you have a single source and the full range of sound over it.
I can quote a hundred bookshelf and 20-floostanding speakers all single driver or at least highly efficient under $900 many under $500 and mate them to the Tecon or Glow Amp (I am also testing the Glow and the Decco) what does this have to with the topic.
While I have tested both the Audioengine speakers the 2's are more versatile as far as connectors the 5's are better sounding simply because they give you more of it and a subwoofer increases the number of components this making making synergy more difficult. These are both still toroidal transformer based amplifiers in a speaker enclosure, no where near the best environment for a amp.
And the sound card indeed any sound card limits you. While you switch among sound cards your only hearing differences in limitations. Once the DAC and other sensitive circuitry is re-located outside the PC box, everything changes in a BIG way. The sound opens up free of EMI (to much greater extent anyway) and now you can uses valves for an amplifier with passive speakers.
The debate in Hugh End between solid state and valves is easily disguised when you hear people reviewing $50,000 solid amps and still describing the sound as "tube like" the valve is where it's at, At the very least you should hear some good valve amps. Bottom line you get an integrated valve amp single ended to boot with a better DAC for under $500 and a mini-monitor for under $400 and you have a true entry level High End system and are still able to play everything from your PC, Internet.
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- Joined
- Apr 29, 2002
QFT
I had a Pentium Pro computer and it was too slow to run SoundEasy so I searched the internet to find how to build a faster computer that was considerably less expensive than the $3k I spent on my PPro workstation.
I found Overclockers.com and the forums. Well one thing lead to another and now I'm much more into building PCs and overclocking than DIY high-end audio.
I still want my audiophile music fix and now that I have Kick @$$ computer(s) all over the house, I can have my cake and eat it too.
My top sound system is in my living room, but my music CDs are ripped as lossless WavPack files on my main rig in my bedroom. So I'll have to build a decent HTPC in the living room to access and play that music. I look forward to your reviews on USB sound cards as I was thinking the same thing about PCI or PCIe sound cards. Right now I'm just listening using the onboard chip via SPDIF-toslink to my receiver. Not ideal but OK for casual listening and a heck of a lot better than the local FM stations.
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