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Definite guidance on Coolant
- Thread starter mikesm
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2002
- Location
- Lewiston Maine
I yanked this from one of their ads it outlines why one should use water wetter and also water wetter was made to be used "with" antifreeze and not as a substitute for antifreeze.
Water has twice the heat transfer capability when compared to 50% glycol antifreeze/coolant in water. Red Line Water Wetter can reduce cooling system temperatures compared to glycol solutions and even plain water. Water has excellent heat transfer properties in its liquid state, but very high surface tension makes it difficult to release water vapor from the metal surfaces. Red Line Water Wetter reduces the surface tension of water by a factor of two, which means that much smaller vapor bubbles will be formed. Vapor bubbles from the metal surfaces create an insulating layer, which impedes heat transfer. Releasing these vapor bubbles from the metal surfaces can improve the heat transfer properties in this localized boiling region by as much as 15%.
Water has twice the heat transfer capability when compared to 50% glycol antifreeze/coolant in water. Red Line Water Wetter can reduce cooling system temperatures compared to glycol solutions and even plain water. Water has excellent heat transfer properties in its liquid state, but very high surface tension makes it difficult to release water vapor from the metal surfaces. Red Line Water Wetter reduces the surface tension of water by a factor of two, which means that much smaller vapor bubbles will be formed. Vapor bubbles from the metal surfaces create an insulating layer, which impedes heat transfer. Releasing these vapor bubbles from the metal surfaces can improve the heat transfer properties in this localized boiling region by as much as 15%.
hmmm, mikesm, thats a really unique idea i haven't ever heard of... if carried out right, e.g. all things have also a ground wire connecting to each other, not just all things are grounded, then it should work...
good job coming up with the idea....
good job coming up with the idea....
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2001
- Location
- Corner of No and Where
I have seen the suggestion of grounding all metal components in the water system before but I don't know if anyone has tested it.
And I know that in my system it would be a LOT of work....copper tubing.
But using an additive or two is very easy and has minimal effect on temps while being pretty effective at reducing corrosion.
I'll take the easy way out
And I know that in my system it would be a LOT of work....copper tubing.
But using an additive or two is very easy and has minimal effect on temps while being pretty effective at reducing corrosion.
I'll take the easy way out
rogerdugans, if its all copper tubing then you don't need to worry about it, cause then the copper is conductive by itself, making obsolete the need for them wires between them componets.... maybe only one ground wire would be needed if any at all... dunno...
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2001
- Location
- Corner of No and Where
Unfotunately it is not completey copper:
to reduce the impact of vibration between components and lessen noise transmission I have short pieces of nylon tubing connecting components and the various runs of copper.
Works great and no possibility of kinking but to ground each and every piece in the system would require 7 or more lengths of wire.
Since I have had zero issues with corrosion by using water wetter and or antifreeze I think I will continue with the methods I have been using. At least on my current machines
Perhaps I will set one of my next rigs up with all fresh components and pure distilled water and ground wires....
Since WW and glycol in the proper ratios do not noticeably affect temps compared with straight distilled h2o I don't think it is a huge issue, but it is yet another interesting thing to test out
to reduce the impact of vibration between components and lessen noise transmission I have short pieces of nylon tubing connecting components and the various runs of copper.
Works great and no possibility of kinking but to ground each and every piece in the system would require 7 or more lengths of wire.
Since I have had zero issues with corrosion by using water wetter and or antifreeze I think I will continue with the methods I have been using.
At least on my current machines Perhaps I will set one of my next rigs up with all fresh components and pure distilled water and ground wires....
Since WW and glycol in the proper ratios do not noticeably affect temps compared with straight distilled h2o I don't think it is a huge issue, but it is yet another interesting thing to test out
- Thread Starter
- #47
Thanks. It seemed to make sense based on the physics they taught me in public school.
I figured this would have to be true, otherwise why would people put an aluminum top on a copper block? But in a block they would be in direct contact with each other and no potential between them would exist.
Wiring a jumper from the block to the radiator and if needed the pump fittings should do the trick.
I wouldn't go without the antifreeze but this would seem to be a surefire way to prevent corrosion...
Thanks,
Mike
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2002
- Location
- Asheville, NC
Anyone know if it is possible to get small amounts of antifreeze?
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2002
- Location
- Asheville, NC
moz_21 said:
Y'know your neighbors car that never *seems* to be driven?
Well its a Water/Antifreeze mixture in the engine coolant so I would have to take more and I wouldn't really be sure how much I would need to take. It would also be kinda hard to get it out without inhaling some fumes (unless you were implying that I cut the tubes...).
I considered taking some from my car.
CrashOveride said:
The fumes ain't gonna hurt you, just don't drink it.
If you get the jugs of antifreeze, some are premixed with distilled water (50-50?)
Otherwise, a local shop or something could help you out - it won't take maybe a cup, if that. 5% antifreeze total as mentioned (somewhere)above - but I have no idea of a system's capacity so maybe more than a cup.
I am planning an adventure into w/c'ing though - thats why I am so interested in this thread.
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2002
- Location
- Asheville, NC
moz_21 said:
Well that is good to know (the premixed thing).
I was planning a WCing system for about 2 years, now I have one
mikesm said:
No, don't do this.
Dissimilar metals, with water and some miscellaneous chemicals in between, form a battery. Providing an electrical connection between the dissimilar metals effectively shorts out this battery. Doing this will greatly accelerate any galvanic corrosion that might occur in the system.
Having the dissimilar metals electrically isolated from each other is like having a battery sitting on a shelf. Chemical reactions still occur in the battery, and the battery will slowly go dead, but at nowhere near the rate it would if the battery was powering something. (Or shorted out.)
- Thread Starter
- #55
Well, maybe my public school physics wasnt so good after all.
Seriously, I don't understand the analogy. I understand that dissimilar metals can create a battery effect that creates a potential between the two metals. You'll get some current flow between the metals because the coolant isn't a perfect insulator. If it was a perfect insulator, there would be no problem, but because the metal ions diffuse into the coolant, as the current flows the corrosion effectively plates the metals. The coolant completes the circuit because of the ion flow.
If you connect the plates together, the wire carries the flow, but not with metal ions in the coolant. Because there is no potential between the metals, the ions shouldn't flow from one metal to another via the coolant. The issue behind the corrosion is the metal ions going from one metal serface to another right? That generates current...
What am I missing here?
Also, slightly off topic, where can I get dexcool antifreeze in the us? None of the online autoparts shops seem to carry it.
Thanks,
Mike
Link
I am not talking about an analogy. An aluminum electrode and a copper electrode, in the same electrolyte bath, form a battery. In the case of the 'electrolytes' we use, it is a pretty pathetic battery with very high internal resistance, but it is a battery.
Electric current flows in loops. Unless there is conductive connection between the two electrodes in a battery, current does not flow through the electrolyte. Now when the terminals are initially placed in the electrolyte, there will be a transfer of charge until the voltage differential between the electrodes is equal to the difference in electrode potential of the two terminals, but once the the appropriate difference in electrode potential is reached, the transfer of charge (and corrosion of the aluminum) will stop.
Reducing the voltage differential between the two electrodes (by say - shorting them together with a wire) will cause the reaction that corrodes the aluminum to start up again as the 'battery' 'tries' to get the voltage differential, between the two electrodes, back to the level determined by the electrode potentials of the two metals.
I am not talking about an analogy. An aluminum electrode and a copper electrode, in the same electrolyte bath, form a battery. In the case of the 'electrolytes' we use, it is a pretty pathetic battery with very high internal resistance, but it is a battery.
Electric current flows in loops. Unless there is conductive connection between the two electrodes in a battery, current does not flow through the electrolyte. Now when the terminals are initially placed in the electrolyte, there will be a transfer of charge until the voltage differential between the electrodes is equal to the difference in electrode potential of the two terminals, but once the the appropriate difference in electrode potential is reached, the transfer of charge (and corrosion of the aluminum) will stop.
Reducing the voltage differential between the two electrodes (by say - shorting them together with a wire) will cause the reaction that corrodes the aluminum to start up again as the 'battery' 'tries' to get the voltage differential, between the two electrodes, back to the level determined by the electrode potentials of the two metals.
yah but thats with the electricity having nowhere else to go to, e.g. it follows the path of least resistence, and since its got nowhere else to go to, it goes in the loop, but if everything is grounded, the differences will be discharged by/through the ground wire right? cause we're not forming a loop, its just one incomplete circuit that is grounded.... and also it should help cause any spare/free elcetrons should be able to get out from the ground wire instead of just sitting there and possibly breaking up some other bond or something right? and also electrolyte solutions usually mean an acid or something, so it can facilitate more free electrons from the two electrodes... and once you ground the whole thing, it should form the new "loop" into the ground,....
right?
right?
No, not right.
If the two terminals of a battery are shorted together through a bare wire, and that wire is also in contact with "ground", there is still a short between the terminals of the battery. There is nothing magical about a particular piece of metal someone may choose to call ground.
There is a loop:
Aluminum->Wire->Copper->Electrolyte->Aluminum
The fact that any point in the loop might be declared to be, "in contact with ground" has no impact on the existence of the loop.
As far as electrochemistry is concerned, an electrolyte solution is any solution which contains ions. Ideally our coolants have very low concentrations of ions, but there will be some ions nonetheless. Higher concentrations of ions will enable the "battery" to push more current through a short circuit, and the corrosion reaction will occur faster.
Whether the pH of a solution makes it an acid, base (alkaline), or neutral doesn't determine whether the solution is an electrolyte. There are acid batteries and alkaline batteries available, and you can make a battery with a salt-water solution with a neutral pH. (Although I don't know if any commercial batteries actually use an electrolyte with neutral pH.)
edit: Replaced the word "sal****er".
If the two terminals of a battery are shorted together through a bare wire, and that wire is also in contact with "ground", there is still a short between the terminals of the battery. There is nothing magical about a particular piece of metal someone may choose to call ground.
There is a loop:
Aluminum->Wire->Copper->Electrolyte->Aluminum
The fact that any point in the loop might be declared to be, "in contact with ground" has no impact on the existence of the loop.
As far as electrochemistry is concerned, an electrolyte solution is any solution which contains ions. Ideally our coolants have very low concentrations of ions, but there will be some ions nonetheless. Higher concentrations of ions will enable the "battery" to push more current through a short circuit, and the corrosion reaction will occur faster.
Whether the pH of a solution makes it an acid, base (alkaline), or neutral doesn't determine whether the solution is an electrolyte. There are acid batteries and alkaline batteries available, and you can make a battery with a salt-water solution with a neutral pH. (Although I don't know if any commercial batteries actually use an electrolyte with neutral pH.)
edit: Replaced the word "sal****er".
- Thread Starter
- #59
Well, I did some research on this subject, and Since87 is correct. Connecting the Al and Cu together will greatly accelerate corrosion in the system. In fact, insulating them from each other will improve corrosion resistance. The circuit is exactly as Since87 outlined it.
I found this interesting article on the subject here.
From the discussion, with distilled water in the loop, it probably doesn't matter that much, but a lot more if it's contaminated with conducting materials. I wonder what antifreeze does to the conductivity of the water...
It would seem that insulating the block from the radiator and pump would make good sense. In a P4 CPU, isn't the heatspreader grounded? If so, if the case is grounded and the radiator is in contact with it, the connection is already formed. If not, then it's probably isolated unless the mounting hardware manages to ground it.
Sorry for the confusion on this - I kept remembering back to how electroplating works, where they use voltage to increase the corrosion (plating), but in our context it appears to be the case that the reverse is true...
Thank you Since87 for setting me straight here!
Mike
I found this interesting article on the subject here.
From the discussion, with distilled water in the loop, it probably doesn't matter that much, but a lot more if it's contaminated with conducting materials. I wonder what antifreeze does to the conductivity of the water...
It would seem that insulating the block from the radiator and pump would make good sense. In a P4 CPU, isn't the heatspreader grounded? If so, if the case is grounded and the radiator is in contact with it, the connection is already formed. If not, then it's probably isolated unless the mounting hardware manages to ground it.
Sorry for the confusion on this - I kept remembering back to how electroplating works, where they use voltage to increase the corrosion (plating), but in our context it appears to be the case that the reverse is true...
Thank you Since87 for setting me straight here!
Mike
Excellent article you found there. Much better than my explanation.
I'm curious about how antifreeze (corrosion inhibitors) work as well. I did a test a while back, where I measured the resistance between two copper electrodes in distilled water before and after adding Water Wetter. I don't remember the numbers, but the resistance of the water decreased by about a factor of 10 at the time Water Wetter was added and then over about 5 minutes, the resistance increased until it was about twice the resistance of the original distilled water.
I haven't seen any good explanations of the chemistry of corrosion inhibitors though.
I don't believe the P4 IHS is grounded.
I'm curious about how antifreeze (corrosion inhibitors) work as well. I did a test a while back, where I measured the resistance between two copper electrodes in distilled water before and after adding Water Wetter. I don't remember the numbers, but the resistance of the water decreased by about a factor of 10 at the time Water Wetter was added and then over about 5 minutes, the resistance increased until it was about twice the resistance of the original distilled water.
I haven't seen any good explanations of the chemistry of corrosion inhibitors though.
I don't believe the P4 IHS is grounded.
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