First time WC build, advice please.

[NJWCMan]

After reading the forum for a couple days and kind of getting hints of what I need here and there I decided it would be best to post and see what sort of response I could get.

I just built a new system with the following specs:

Antec Twelve Hundred Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case
Intel Core 2 Quad Processor Q9650 3.0GHz 1333MHz 12MB LGA775 CPU
G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2000 (PC3 16000) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory
ASUS EAH4870X2/HTDI/2G/A Radeon HD 4870 X2 2GB 512-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card
ASUS Rampage Extreme LGA 775 Intel X48 ATX Intel Motherboard
SAMSUNG 22X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model SH-S223Q
4x Western Digital WD1001FALS 1TB SATA2 7200rpm 32MB Hard Drive (total 3.5 TB in Raid Array)
1x Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS 150GB SATA2 10k rpm 16MB Hard Drive (For OS)
Tuniq Tower 120 Universal CPU Cooler 120mm LED Cooling Fan and Fan Controller/Heatsink
NZXT SEN-001LX Sentry LX Aluminum dual bay fan controller
Hiper Type-R II Ultra-Efficient 880W Power Supply - Blue

It currently runs at about 42 - 45 C at idle/minimal use and I have decided that I would prefer to keep it a little cooler and go for WC, plus all the fans in the thing keep sucking up my cats hair. Air cooled it is currently OC to 4.052 GHz.

With the new WC system I would like to cool my CPU, NB, and my GPU on one loop.

So far the products I am thinking of are:

CPU - D-TEK FuZion v2 CPU Block or Swiftec Apogee GTZ (I am leaning towards the GTZ unless someone can give me a convinving reason to go with the D-TEK)

GPU - EK-FC4870 X2 - CF Nickel

NB - Swiftech MCW-NBMAX or Bitspower Black Freezer AIX48NSE (Though I don't think I really need to cool the SB so I am leaning towards the swiftech again unless someone can convince me otherwise)

Radiator - Feser X-Changer Triple 360 mm Extreme Performance Radiator - (Rear external mount) + MCB-120 Radbox

Fans - 3x Scythe "S-FLEX™" S-FDB 120mm Quiet FAN SFF21G (1900 RPM 75.0 CFM)

Reservoir - EK-BAY SPIN Reservoir - Acetal (Not mounted in a bay, but kept external in a custom built enclosure)

Pump - MCP655 series 12 VDC Pump - Retail with variable speed, not the -b with no speed control

Tubing - Tygon Clear Tubing 1/2 ID or 7/16 OD or 3/8 ID

Coolant - PrimoChill Pure Performance Coolant - Invisible Blue

Both the Pump and the Reservior will be housed in a custome converted external enclosure. Noise is not so much an issue with this system as I am currently running about 7 fans at high speed in my case right now, so I am sure even pumped up the WC system will be quieter than it is now.

I was thinking of looping in the following order:

Res---> Pump ----> CPU ---> NB ---> GPU----> Rad--->

Now come the questions

1) Should I go with 1/2 ID, 7/16 OD, or 3/8 ID tubing, and why? I was thinking 1/2 ID though I am really not 100% positive and I was hoping someone would be able to enlighten me as to which would be best for this set up.

2) Will one radiator be enough or should a second smaller radiator be introduced into the system, possibly between the NB and GPU. If so which radiator. If not is the Feser X-Changer Triple 360 mm a good option for the rad in this system, and will it provide sufficient cooling.

If including a second radiator I am assuming the loop would look like:

Res--->Pump---->CPU--->NB--->Rad(120mm?)--->GPU---->Rad(360mm)--->

3) Due to the set up of the Antec 1200 case the two pre-drilled entrance holes for the Tubing are on the bottom of the case. I am assuming a rad cannot be mounted upside down (though I may be wrong) to allow the tubing direct access to the holes. If this is correct, is their a reliable and sufficiently powerful Rad which has bottom mounted input/output which I could use instead of the Feser, or should I just run the tubing down the outside of the case and into the holes?

4) If a second (smaller) radiator is necessary for the cooling of the case I am pretty positive due to the design of the Antec 1200 that I will be hard pressed to mount the smaller rad internally. Has anyone sucessfully mounted a smaller rad internally on the Antec 1200, and if so where?

5) If anyone has any other recommendations or suggestions which I did not address here feel free to post them up. As I said this is my first WC build so I am a little nervous about doing it wrong, and excited about gaining the knowledge and experience. Any alternative or additional equipment which you would suggest would be greatly appreciated, though will add more confusion to my planning !

6) Last thing, I was thinking of adding either an inline thermometer, or some sort of temp probe in the res/line. Does anyone have any suggestions for an efficient and easy to use inline preferably temp probe?

Thank you for your time and I looked forward to your reponses!

 

[CGR]

to the forums.

The Fusion and GTX are pretty close, but the GTX, from what I have read, performs better on quads. Not a huge amount but a few C.

Personally, I would leave the NB out of the loop. You can get a lot of after market air coolers for it that do just as good a job, assuming its needed. That board already has a pretty large NB cooler on it.

1/2 inch tubing should always be used.

Dont use two rads unless you will use two completely separate loops.

Shouldnt matter what way the rad is mounted.

You could use something like this to measure the temps, but honestly its not really needed. http://www.crazypc.com/products/93325.html

 

[BobbyBubblehead]

NJWCMan

(Have no usefull input but welcome to the forum anyways)

 

[NJWCMan]

to the forums.

The Fusion and GTX are pretty close, but the GTX, from what I have read, performs better on quads. Not a huge amount but a few C.

Personally, I would leave the NB out of the loop. You can get a lot of after market air coolers for it that do just as good a job, assuming its needed. That board already has a pretty large NB cooler on it.

1/2 inch tubing should always be used.

Dont use two rads unless you will use two completely separate loops.

Shouldnt matter what way the rad is mounted.

You could use something like this to measure the temps, but honestly its not really needed. http://www.crazypc.com/products/93325.html

CGR I have heard that 7/16 over a 1/2 barb will usually give a tighter seal, should I just disregard that and go for 1/2 anyway?

The main reason I am considering the NB is that the Rampage Extreme already has an included block (Asus fusion block) but it is a 3/8 block and doesn't seem spectacular, so I figured a replacement was in order. I currently believe I have the air cooler on it that also comes with the Mobo and it is running at 47C with air, and as I said the machine is currently OC to 4.052 GHz up from 3.0GHz. I am hoping with WC I will be able to pass 4.5GHz. I am also planning on OC the memory on the machine and trying to get it to run at its full capacity (It is currently running as PC1333 instead of PC2000)

Thank you for the input on the rad also. I was really hoping to get away with only one rad.

Also I have decided to change the order of the loop to:

Res---> Pump ----> Rad---> CPU ---> NB ---> GPU---->

I was considering doing this to remove any heat that may be added by the pump before reaching the CPU.

Anyone have any input as to whether I should go

Res---> Pump ----> Rad---> CPU ---> NB ---> GPU---->

or

Res---> Pump ----> CPU ---> NB ---> GPU----> Rad--->

And I found a temp probe I think I can use considering the res has a flow meter (which I really dont care about) here is the temp probe:

Innovatek Screw-In Inline Water Temp Probe

 

[Spawn-Inc]

CGR, you mean GTZ


1. i have used both 1/2" ID tubing at currently 7/16" ID. both cheaper brands then tygon. i like the 7/16" ID and will stick with it from now on. i use Masterkleer, at $0.59 a foot it can't be beat.

2. 1 rad will not be enough to handle all that. you could maybe be fine with the Feser Quad rad but i think your best off with a triple and double 120mm rad.
if you short on cash i would get a Swiftech MCR320 and MCR220 over feser or thermochill. they perform a few degrees lower then the feser or thermochill but cost half as much. the order of the loop doesn't matter so long as the res is BEFORE the pump. otherwise make the loop as short as possible.

3. rad position doesn't matter, its all the same. the only time it matters is incase of the Swiftech series with built in res. having the barbs at the top makes bleeding easier, but thats all.

4. i would hang one off the back as you are going to and the second one either on top of your case or in front in the 5.25" bays.

5. you don't need the premade coolants. just get distilled water and some PT nuke PHN. if you feel you want colouring then i would go with feser View UV dye's. if you are going with colouring then use distilled water, dye, and PT nuke. other then that you picked out good parts.

6. you can get a T fitting and place one of these bitspower temp probs in the T.


you can uses more then one rad, its not a big deal and done all the time. the pump you selected is plenty fine. if your worried you can upgrade to a Swiftech MCP355 with a XSPC after market top. it has a res built in so you don't need the one you selected now. its a great combo and performs a bit better then the MCP655.

 

[CGR]

CGR I have heard that 7/16 over a 1/2 barb will usually give a tighter seal, should I just disregard that and go for 1/2 anyway?

The main reason I am considering the NB is that the Rampage Extreme already has an included block (Asus fusion block) but it is a 3/8 block and doesn't seem spectacular, so I figured a replacement was in order. I currently believe I have the air cooler on it that also comes with the Mobo and it is running at 47C with air, and as I said the machine is currently OC to 4.052 GHz up from 3.0GHz. I am hoping with WC I will be able to pass 4.5GHz. I am also planning on OC the memory on the machine and trying to get it to run at its full capacity (It is currently running as PC1333 instead of PC2000)

Thank you for the input on the rad also. I was really hoping to get away with only one rad.

Also I have decided to change the order of the loop to:

Res---> Pump ----> Rad---> CPU ---> NB ---> GPU---->

I was considering doing this to remove any heat that may be added by the pump before reaching the CPU.

Anyone have any input as to whether I should go

Res---> Pump ----> Rad---> CPU ---> NB ---> GPU---->

or

Res---> Pump ----> CPU ---> NB ---> GPU----> Rad--->

And I found a temp probe I think I can use considering the res has a flow meter (which I really dont care about) here is the temp probe:

Innovatek Screw-In Inline Water Temp Probe

I will always use 1/2 ID tubing. As for the seal, just use a clamp and your fine.

47c on the NB is pretty good, and chances are it isnt holding you back with your OC. You would be better off just putting a small fan on it over WCing it, but thats just my opinion.

The pump wont put enough heat into the water to make a difference, so its fine to have it before the CPU.

Again, monitoring the water temp really doesnt give you anything beneficial.

 

[NJWCMan]

Hmm alright so scrap the temp probe, guess now it comes down to figuring out if I need one or two rads considering I have conflicting advice now lol.

Spawn why do you recommend the 355 pump over the 655 pump? From what I can tell (and I can tell you I am not very knowledgeable on this part of the system) the 655 puts out more GPH/LPH than the 355. So what would make the 355 superior?

Also if I do in fact go with the 355 do you know of any other res tops (such as the one you provided a link for) that are something other than acrylic. For some reason I am not sure how well I trust the durability of acrylic. I also found this top: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcwdeddcpu.html for the part (without a res). If I go without a res top have you heard anything about the sidewinder one?

 

[CGR]

Two rads with all the other stuff is way to much restriction IMO. Either go with one triple/quad rad or do two loops.

Also you may want to check this out:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=220593

Great review on a bunch of rads. My advice would be to drop the feser for a magicool as its a lot cheaper and performs really well.

 

[NJWCMan]

Funny thing, about 10 seconds before reading your post I stumbled across the same thread. After looking at the data I think I need to see what my heat output is going to be off the CPU, NB, and GPU. From the looks of it either a Magicool triple rad, or the Black Ice GTX should be able to handle up to 600W, which I am not sure how that will compare to my loop. I definitely only want to do one rad if I can manage it, so I am going to have to check out some heat specs.

Also does anyone have any experience with the Black Ice GTX? Pros/Cons?

 

[Spawn-Inc]

Hmm alright so scrap the temp probe, guess now it comes down to figuring out if I need one or two rads considering I have conflicting advice now lol.

Spawn why do you recommend the 355 pump over the 655 pump? From what I can tell (and I can tell you I am not very knowledgeable on this part of the system) the 655 puts out more GPH/LPH than the 355. So what would make the 355 superior?

Also if I do in fact go with the 355 do you know of any other res tops (such as the one you provided a link for) that are something other than acrylic. For some reason I am not sure how well I trust the durability of acrylic. I also found this top: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmcwdeddcpu.html for the part (without a res). If I go without a res top have you heard anything about the sidewinder one?

you looking at the stock specs of the 355, when you add the XSPC res top you will get better results then the 655. here is the review of the MCP355 with a ton of tops compared.

as for its durability i have never heard of any issues with this top. its well built and will last a good time.

Two rads with all the other stuff is way to much restriction IMO. Either go with one triple/quad rad or do two loops.

Also you may want to check this out:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=220593

Great review on a bunch of rads. My advice would be to drop the feser for a magicool as its a lot cheaper and performs really well.

i got by others loops and martins flow rate calc. it says a MCP355 with XSPC res top can do 3 MCR320's and 3-4 blocks and still get 1.5 GPM. the blocks listed aren't to bad on restrictions so i would be fine running them and 2 rads.

HOWEVER, if money is no issue then of course go with 2 loops over 1 for the sake of the cpu, but if money is fairly tight then go with swiftech rads and a single loop. and now that i think of it, go with 2x Swiftech MCR320's. use there new stackable rad system. you can mount them both off the back AND the flow is parallel and will keep up flow rates.

link to the stackable rad. what you do is buy one normal Swiftech MCR320 then buy the stackable one and slap them together and your good to go! here is a pic

Funny thing, about 10 seconds before reading your post I stumbled across the same thread. After looking at the data I think I need to see what my heat output is going to be off the CPU, NB, and GPU. From the looks of it either a Magicool triple rad, or the Black Ice GTX should be able to handle up to 600W, which I am not sure how that will compare to my loop. I definitely only want to do one rad if I can manage it, so I am going to have to check out some heat specs.

Also does anyone have any experience with the Black Ice GTX? Pros/Cons?

the pros to the GTX are high performs BUT you need high speed and thus LOUD fans. where as with feser and thermochill you can use low speed to get the same performance. Swiftech rads work best with medium speed fans.

 

[NJWCMan]

As I had originally mentioned I was planning on going with the new Scythe SFF21G which runs at about 34dB so sound is not really an issue. Besides my case is load as it could possibly be right now, running about 8 fans. I think the test rests and cfm on the SFF21G, and its a high speed fan, so I really think I want to get a rad that is gonna hold up well with high speed, which sadly enough the MCP320 doesnt seem to do. Maybe the XSPC RX360.

Thanks for the heads up on the pump, I will definitely check it out, and I think I might end up going with the res top after all.

 

[Spawn-Inc]

the fact still remains with what you want cooled you will need more then 1 rad and from the sounds of it the only place you want your rad is hanging off the back of your case, i think the stackable swiftech rad is your best bet.

then again the 1200 is a big case and here is a thread on the 1200 and water cooling, with a couple of pics.

 

[NJWCMan]

Hmm, marlin wattage calc put me at about 354 output for the CPU + GPU, but that was not including the NB. If a RX360 can get 17.35 at 1600 RPM on a 600W heat source, is the NB being added to the loop going to add 250 watts to the mix and put me past what the RX360 is capable of?

 

[Spawn-Inc]

do you have a link to this marlin wattage calc?

thats way to low, your video card, according to reviews, puts out +/- 450watts of heat.

 

[Conumdrum]

Here is the poop on wattage vs temps.

A 360 rad can pull 600 watts of heat. Yep. Only with screaming 3000 rpm fans that will cut your finger off.

This is where being able to decipher Martins charts is a good thing. It took me a while for sure, and more than 20 looks over a few months. I just didn't know how important it was till I learned.

The really most important thing is the 'Delta T'. It's the diff between the ambient air temps and what your water temp is under a set wattage and fannage. I won't dig into the chart, but what happens is if your cooling system is weak, your CPU temps suffer because your water temp is high. An AWESOME WC setup gives 5C or lower Delta. Over 10C and your hurting.

I will say a GPU ONLY loop can handle higher delta, we WC GPU's to get rid of the friggin noise most of the time, really cool temps don't help GPU overclocking a lot.

So, pay attention to the charts. You have to keep the Delta T down, and saying it can cool 600 watts is crap. Why? You have to take Delta T into account. You have to.

If I lived in a place where my air temp was 15C I could get by with less rad. If I live in Vegas (I do) and had 27C air temps, I would need bigger rads for sure.

In summary, learn to read Martins and Skinnees reviews of rads carefully, hate to see you but less rad than you need and your an overheated, unhappy watercooler.

 

[NJWCMan]

http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

That is a link to the wattage calculator. If you plug the numbers generated there into the martin rad calc found here:

http://martin.skinneelabs.com/img/Martins-RadEstimator-HWLabs480GTX-03.zip

(It's an excel spreadsheet) it ends up giving me a Delta-T of around 7.1 with the XSPC 360RS (No option for the 360RX).

Is 7.1 too high of a delta-T? If so I will definitely start looking more into the stack rad, as really that is my only dilemma/unknowledgeable part at this point.

Only issue I can see right now with the MCR320-QP-STACK is that they say not to use it upside-down due to accumulation of air over time. . . is this a legitimate concern. As I mentioned the Antec 1200 case has the two hose ports on the bottom of the case, so if the rad barbs were at the top would it cause issues to run the hose all the way (through a rad box) down the back and then into the case through the bottom? If not I have no problem with the MCR320-QP-STACK, but if so I need to figure out how to use the rads upside down.

 

[Conumdrum]

7.1 Delta, you happy with that? All loops are diff. It tells you the T, but it doesn't take into account your room temps in the summer or winter. If your room is 5C greater, your water temp will be 5C greater 100% guaranteed, will your CPU love you? What was the ambient they used? Will you have the exact same fans? Will you place the rad using case air to cool the rad? Fan filters for dust?

Thats the second issue. These great math charts still don't help 100%. Every watercooled setup is diff. Flow rates on some CPU blocks are worse than others. Your chip might suck and need an extra .2 VID to accomplish the same overclock. Lots more heat, darnit.

We can use science and the standardized testing methods given to us by some true (thanks) WC gods. We still have to fudge the numbers for reality.

If you will be happy with the temps you get and your system works fine with what ya have/done with your stuff, then all is good. Being informed on the pitfalls and what you can get away with means your happy.

Moral of the story. Never underrad if there is any question. It means you have to buy another rad cuz ya did underrad. Engineers always give a plus % of error to save their jobs, we should do the same.

 

[NJWCMan]

Makes sense Conumdrum. And no I really wasn't happy with a 7.2 Delta-T but trying to get a feel for all this info is surely complex lol.

I was editing my post while you were replying, so I will repost the edited portion, since you seem quite well-informed when it comes to WC.


Only issue I can see right now with the MCR320-QP-STACK is that they say not to use it upside-down due to accumulation of air over time. . . is this a legitimate concern. As I mentioned the Antec 1200 case has the two hose ports on the bottom of the case, so if the rad barbs were at the top would it cause issues to run the hose all the way (through a rad box) down the back and then into the case through the bottom? If not I have no problem with the MCR320-QP-STACK, but if so I need to figure out how to use the rads upside down.

 

[Conumdrum]

I'm really not a uber guy who knows a ton. I have a common sense idea on how it all comes together, that's all. BTW, it's great to see a well researched first post like you made. You have done your homework and have a good brain. Welcome to OC Forums.

Some of my last two posts isn't directed for you, it's just general stuff all of us need to know.

You want to cool a pretty hot OC Quad CPU and a 4870x2 card? Is that it? I'd not cool the NB unless you hit a OC wall. WC the GPU and PU should be enuff.

Awaiting your reply, then I'll give you my input.

 

[NJWCMan]

Well thank you for the welcome. I have to say at all the boards I have checked out this is definitely the most helpful. And I am glad my post was accepted, I tried to be as informed as possible and not come off as someone who wanted answers without trying to look for them first

My NB runs a little warm currently (Air cooled to 4.052 GHz) around 47c to 50c, and I would honestly like to try and push the processor as close to 5.0Ghz as I can get it, as well as bumping up my DRAM a little bit. That was my main thought behind the NB block. Whether or not that is good reasoning I am not sure. If the NB block is the reason for a second rad then I could see skipping it if I could downsize to one rad, but if the CPU and GPU are going to require two rads anyway I can't see a reason to leave the NB out of the look.

Also with the rampage extreme board the NB is currently sitting with the copper heatpiped heatsink that asus provides as a replacement for their fusion block (so worst comes to worst I could through the 3/8 fitting block asus provided on the NB though I would prefer not to)