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Folding from a RAM Drive

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MLMIB said:
if you could get together with wedo and build this into a 1 click I'd be all over it :)

So would I! If I wasn't trying to refine a few things first. I think that the only problem with this as a one-click is it leaves the ramdrive out where those not in the know will just plain ol mess around with it or screw things up trying to use the Ramdrive for other than what is intended.

Edit: I just noticed that EOC never picked up anything I turned in today! shows 7/27 as nothing, Yet Stanford has them all recorded :shrug:
anyone else have something missing?
I guess that I will just will have to script out a page from stanford and do my own stats.
 
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Interesting stuff.

A while back I had a K6-2 450 and K6-2 400 folding, and the 400 had 64Mb EDO and the the 450 had 64Mb SDRAM, but the 400 was running rings round the 450. It was doing 1.5 units to the 450s 1. Now the only advantage the 400 had was a 15G UDMA66 drive on a UDMA33 interface, vs a DMA mode 1 drive on the 450, I think it was something like 3MB/sec transfer vs about 20MB/sec transfer. So I guess storage speed can make quite a bit of difference.

Now while it's a good idea to blam in the RAM in older machines to use a RAM disk and get the production up, you may find some socket 7 based systems run slower. This is because some of them can only cache 64Mb. This is usually only a problem for boards that can only run 66/75/83 FSB, anything with 100Mhz FSB can cache at least 256Mb I think. This does not apply with K6-3/+ and K6-2+ chips though which have onboard L2 and cache independantly of the mobo. So try it and see what happens for old rigs, but keep a careful eye to make sure that production isn't hurting instead of increasing.

Beware of folding directly off USB drives, or other flash media. They have a limited number of write cycles. The early ones had life expectancies of only 10,000 writes, this improved greatly a couple of years ago to 100,000 and has gone into the millions for brand name flash parts. However some of the cheaper ones around may have low life expectancies, so folding off them directly may "use up" the part in a short space of time. A fast machine could easily change the log file 1000 times in a day, so for earlier type flash parts, you might only expect 10 days use out of it before you get errors. For medium old parts, and cheaper current parts that would be about 3 months. That's if the log file is the most frequently written file. If it writes anything else more frequently, you might see a real short lifetime for the part. So setting USB drives to run F@H from RAM and to back up to the USB drive every hour or so is a better idea. If you really want to stretch the lifetime of your USB drive, then make the backups in sequential directories until the drive is full, then start overwriting the earlier ones. That way you don't just hammer a single area of the drive all the time.


If we accept that storage performance has a significant impact on folding speed, but that the RAM drive option isn't viable for all machines. Then one might consider for "spare part" and older dedicated rigs, the use of RAID 0 arrays to enhance storage performance. I'm not saying you should go out and buy $150 worth of RAID card and $200 worth of drives for your P3 rig of course. Merely that one could consider applying older hardware in a more efficient manner. If for instance you've got rigs running off old 2G and 4G HDDs, you might consider doubling them up for better performance, with a cheap UDMA33 RAID card, that you can pick up for peanuts. Under linux the software RAID works quite well I beleive, to use off the internal interfaces. Also when buying older socket A boards for folding rigs, you might want to consider the RAID versions of A7Vs and some Abit boards. The prices on those, used, are rarely much more than boards without RAID, now they're getting longer in the tooth. Should you not find a cheap older RAID card available, you might even find performance improved by using 2 drives still, boot OS and swap on one drive, and the folding dir on a second drive on the other interface. So that the drive doesn't have to keep re-seeking between the swap file and the folding dir. Another hint is that size isn't everything. I've got some 420Mb drives that are faster than 2G and 4G drives I've got. Of course there are faster 2G and 4G ones around, but just don't necessarily assume your larger drives are faster. There's actually some blazing fast 4G-6G-8G UDMA33 drives around that will cream anything short of a good 40G or so UDMA66 drive with 2Mb Cache.

I'm thinking actually, that it might not really be sustained transfer speed that matters much. Not sure that F@H is moving large chunks most of the time, I think it's just writing and reading a lot of small pieces of data quite frequently, the larger reads happen at beginning and end of frames most likely. It's probably more down to seek performance, latency and burst transfers. In seek performance, there's quite a few older drives around with 9ms full seek times whereas even some new drives these days have 12ms times.

Anyhoo, whether you can find and use extra RAM for RAM drives, find ways of increasing your storage speed, or find storage that works better for F@H hiding in your closet, good luck with the optimisation, and fold on,

Road Warrior
 
I have a tualatin Celeron 1000 @ 1333 atm. Memory timings are 3-3-3. Using the ramdrive my frame times are about 30 seconds faster. I have a P4 1.6 willie with 640mb of ram. I dont know why dell thought it was good to use pc133 ram with a p4, but using the ram drive doesnt decrease my frame times at all on QMD. I assume the ram is already the bottleneck in the system anyway, so running off the HD doesnt slow it down any.
 
RoadWarrior said:
Interesting stuff.

A while back I had a K6-2 450 and K6-2 400 folding, and the 400 had 64Mb EDO and the the 450 had 64Mb SDRAM, but the 400 was running rings round the 450. It was doing 1.5 units to the 450s 1. Now the only advantage the 400 had was a 15G UDMA66 drive on a UDMA33 interface, vs a DMA mode 1 drive on the 450, I think it was something like 3MB/sec transfer vs about 20MB/sec transfer. So I guess storage speed can make quite a bit of difference.

Now while it's a good idea to blam in the RAM in older machines to use a RAM disk and get the production up, you may find some socket 7 based systems run slower. This is because some of them can only cache 64Mb. This is usually only a problem for boards that can only run 66/75/83 FSB, anything with 100Mhz FSB can cache at least 256Mb I think. This does not apply with K6-3/+ and K6-2+ chips though which have onboard L2 and cache independantly of the mobo. So try it and see what happens for old rigs, but keep a careful eye to make sure that production isn't hurting instead of increasing.

Beware of folding directly off USB drives, or other flash media. They have a limited number of write cycles. The early ones had life expectancies of only 10,000 writes, this improved greatly a couple of years ago to 100,000 and has gone into the millions for brand name flash parts. However some of the cheaper ones around may have low life expectancies, so folding off them directly may "use up" the part in a short space of time. A fast machine could easily change the log file 1000 times in a day, so for earlier type flash parts, you might only expect 10 days use out of it before you get errors. For medium old parts, and cheaper current parts that would be about 3 months. That's if the log file is the most frequently written file. If it writes anything else more frequently, you might see a real short lifetime for the part. So setting USB drives to run F@H from RAM and to back up to the USB drive every hour or so is a better idea. If you really want to stretch the lifetime of your USB drive, then make the backups in sequential directories until the drive is full, then start overwriting the earlier ones. That way you don't just hammer a single area of the drive all the time.


If we accept that storage performance has a significant impact on folding speed, but that the RAM drive option isn't viable for all machines. Then one might consider for "spare part" and older dedicated rigs, the use of RAID 0 arrays to enhance storage performance. I'm not saying you should go out and buy $150 worth of RAID card and $200 worth of drives for your P3 rig of course. Merely that one could consider applying older hardware in a more efficient manner. If for instance you've got rigs running off old 2G and 4G HDDs, you might consider doubling them up for better performance, with a cheap UDMA33 RAID card, that you can pick up for peanuts. Under linux the software RAID works quite well I beleive, to use off the internal interfaces. Also when buying older socket A boards for folding rigs, you might want to consider the RAID versions of A7Vs and some Abit boards. The prices on those, used, are rarely much more than boards without RAID, now they're getting longer in the tooth. Should you not find a cheap older RAID card available, you might even find performance improved by using 2 drives still, boot OS and swap on one drive, and the folding dir on a second drive on the other interface. So that the drive doesn't have to keep re-seeking between the swap file and the folding dir. Another hint is that size isn't everything. I've got some 420Mb drives that are faster than 2G and 4G drives I've got. Of course there are faster 2G and 4G ones around, but just don't necessarily assume your larger drives are faster. There's actually some blazing fast 4G-6G-8G UDMA33 drives around that will cream anything short of a good 40G or so UDMA66 drive with 2Mb Cache.

I'm thinking actually, that it might not really be sustained transfer speed that matters much. Not sure that F@H is moving large chunks most of the time, I think it's just writing and reading a lot of small pieces of data quite frequently, the larger reads happen at beginning and end of frames most likely. It's probably more down to seek performance, latency and burst transfers. In seek performance, there's quite a few older drives around with 9ms full seek times whereas even some new drives these days have 12ms times.

Anyhoo, whether you can find and use extra RAM for RAM drives, find ways of increasing your storage speed, or find storage that works better for F@H hiding in your closet, good luck with the optimisation, and fold on,

Road Warrior


^^ Yeah, What he said! ^^

Good stuff there, very helpful. Fortunately I have already considered most of it, and try to never run FAH from the USB Drive. I knew there was a limit to their use, but was not really sure just how much. What I did test was the speed, and it really bites.
Now as far as the Hard drives, all of that was excellent! and so true. You are right Road Warrier, Size isnt everything. That is what I also believe true with the RamDrive. I kept it at around 25MB monitoring size during every work unit, seems to never have gone much beyond about 20mb. Big Packets may be a much different story, Certainly not one I am going to try right now.
I have never thought to attempt a Raid setup in Linux, with the few hard drives I do have, and they being mostly small ones, I need all the space I can get!
 
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dwschoon said:
I have a tualatin Celeron 1000 @ 1333 atm. Memory timings are 3-3-3. Using the ramdrive my frame times are about 30 seconds faster. I have a P4 1.6 willie with 640mb of ram. I dont know why dell thought it was good to use pc133 ram with a p4, but using the ram drive doesnt decrease my frame times at all on QMD. I assume the ram is already the bottleneck in the system anyway, so running off the HD doesnt slow it down any.


Thanks for the info! Everything I can get from anyone else, on any processor will be of some importance. Processor and Speed is most helpful right now, Perhaps along with short snips from the logs and the Unit being folded as well. anything to help Prove/Improve the speed & performance of F@H with Ramdrive folding is what I am after.
 
ghettocomp said:
Thanks for the info! Everything I can get from anyone else, on any processor will be of some importance. Processor and Speed is most helpful right now, Perhaps along with short snips from the logs and the Unit being folded as well. anything to help Prove/Improve the speed & performance of F@H with Ramdrive folding is what I am after.

I forgot to mention the tualatin is folding P147x big wu's while logged into windows. adding the -service flag didnt do anything to the times.
 
dwschoon said:
How do you get it to work as a service. When I reboot, the ramdrive is cleared, so it obviously cant start with windows.
from the ramdrive programs I've used in the past you could simply create a btach file that created the drive and ran during boot so once you are in windows its there to use. Just downloaded program so haven't checked there yet but if its configurable in windows than a simple script on boot (or even after startup) that creates the drive, copies the WU and FAH items over and starts the service would not be difficult at all.
 
pik4chu, would really like to know how it works out for you. I have a couple xeons that might like this. Tried oc'ing the pci bus on the p4 to no avail as times in fact fell off. Myabe the ram drive, especially on the xeons.
 
I tried getting this to work earlier, and the MS one wasn't working for me and the AR drive wouldn't allow me to make a drive larger than 32MB.

When I used that one, it ran out of space pretty quick, my FAH folder is around 40MB...

Are there any other options for free Ramdisk software that anyone knows about? The few I've found through google are too crippled to do any good for me...
 
Now that does create a problem. p4 just started on a qmd and is at 65mg in the folder while the large gromac on one of the amds is half done and at 36mg.
 
Small Update to the copy code

After a Disasterous shutdown and restart for other reasons than folding,
I realized why I disliked the 'COPY' command in DOS: It does not do
directorys! I lost an entire WU because the work folder was never copied
or backed up. You would think I would remember this from the days I used
to do a lot of DOS Programming. Not to worry I have revised the code to
do a much better job. :cool:

Backup code is revised to:
Code:
XCopy /Q /Y /E Z:\*.*  C:\backup\Zbackup\
This little setup copies everything from root at Z:\ and places in the backup
directory on C:\

Restore Code is:
Code:
XCopy /Q /Y /E c:\backup\Zbackup\*.*  Z:\
This is basically Reverse of the backup code, and will place the WU back into the RAM Drive from the backup directory on the hard drive.
 
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As an alternative to the RAM drive programs already suggested and their limits, I seem to recall that on some motherboard CDs a while back there was a RAM drive program. I can't remember who was distributing it. It was one of the big names, Asus or Abit maybe, came with RAMdrive software, and RAM cleanup utils, seem to remember something called GigaRAM or something was one of them. Anyhoo, thought people might like to have a dig through their old driver CDs and see if that one works for larger RAMdrives.

regards,

Road Warrior
 
I have used the arsoft program to setup up to 100mb ram drive with no problems. also, copy hasnt been working for copying the work directory for me either. i tried xcopy and it didnt help. here is what i had to do.
backup
Copy z:\*.* C:\backup\Zbackup\
Copy z:\work\*.* C:\backup\Zbackup\work\*.*

i also have a batch to create and start FAH on z:
md z:\work
copy C:\backup\Zbackup\*.* z:\*.*
copy C:\backup\Zbackup\work\*.* z:\work\*.*
z:\fah.lnk
 
dwschoon said:
I have used the arsoft program to setup up to 100mb ram drive with no problems.

I just realized, I mistyped when I wrote that. Unfortunetly, I can't seem to get the AR soft ramdrive working. I downloaded another one from a company called 'QSoft' I bleive it was and that was the on that had a space limitation. I'm going to try to get the ARsoft drive working today.

Edit: What's the largest size you've seen your FAH directories get? I've only seen 38MB so do you think a 64MB ramdisk is enough?
 
chubby_bunny said:
I just realized, I mistyped when I wrote that. Unfortunetly, I can't seem to get the AR soft ramdrive working. I downloaded another one from a company called 'QSoft' I bleive it was and that was the on that had a space limitation. I'm going to try to get the ARsoft drive working today.

Edit: What's the largest size you've seen your FAH directories get? I've only seen 38MB so do you think a 64MB ramdisk is enough?

the arsoft wouldnt work for me until i changed it from ramdrive to emulate hard drive in the settings. i set it at 100mb when i did a qmd. i only had it at 50mb when i was folding a p147x, but when it completed it tried to expand beyond that and i got an IO error, so i set it at 75. i couldnt figure out exactly what size was needed for the big packet, but 75 seemed to be plenty. I think 50 is plenty for anything but bigpackets.
 
To Install the AR Soft Ram Drive AND have it work, you will need to do the following:

Run ' setup.exe '

At the Welcome screen:

click ' Next '
click ' Accept '
click " Install, Upgrade or Reinstall AR Ram Disk "

make sure the configure box IS Checked

Click ' Finish '

on the settings screen:
check ' Enable Ram Disk '

In the ' General ' tab
select ' System ' for Startup Type

Select ' Emulate a local hard disk '

Go to Geometry Tab
my preference is to set Disk size to 25 MB That is usually enough for me since
I do not try to fold any Big Packets. you could make it larger but if you run anything
less than 512 of Ram, it possibly could slow some things down a bit.

Now, LEAVE Everything Else Alone! it is possible to mess things up.

Click ' OK '

you most likely will have to restart your computer at this point. If not
the RamDrive probably will not work yet.
 
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