OP
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2001
- Location
- Seattle Washington
- Thread Starter
- #41
it's actual breathable, everyday air - not 02. just tried to simplify there.
-
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For all you watercooling nuts out there - hard data
- Thread starter r0ckstarbob
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2001
does anyone else smell a hint of smog in that everyday breathable air??? maybe we shouldn't be breathing it.
anywho......Great Data!
im sure glad someone has the time to look this stuff up, because I know I currently dont..THANKS for everything you all have been doing.
anywho......Great Data!
im sure glad someone has the time to look this stuff up, because I know I currently dont..THANKS for everything you all have been doing.
Copper Sulfate
Copper Sulfate,Pentahydrate aka Cupric Sulfate
Blue vitriol
CuSO4.5H2O - means that it has a crystailc structure that holds 5 water molicules
Molar Weight = 249.68
Density = 2.284
Melting Point (C) (-4H2O) = 110
Boiling Point (C) (-5H2O) = 150
A% = anhydrous solute weight per cent, g solute/100g solution
H% = hydrated solute weight per cent, g solute/100 solution
p = relative density at 20ºC, kg/1
D = specific gravity at 20ºC
Cs = anhydrous solute concentration, g/l
M = molar concentration, g-mol/l
Cw = total water concentration, g/l
(C0 – Cw ) = water displaced by anhydrous solute, g/l
(n – n0) x 10 = index of refraction increment avobe index of refraction of pure water 10^4 at 20ºC
n = index of refraction at 20ºC
Δ = freezing point depression a, ºC
O = osmolality, OS/kg water
S = osmosity, molar concentration of NaCl solution having same freezing point of osmotic pressure as given solution, g-mol/l
ή/ήo = relative viscosity, ratio of the absolute viscosity at 20ºC to the absolute viscosity of water at 20ºC
ή/p = kinematic viscosity, ratio of absolute viscosity at 20ºC to relative density
φ = fluidity, reciprocal of absolute viscosity at 20ºC
T = condosity, molar concentration of NaCl solution having same specific conductance (electrical) at 20ºC as given solution, g-mol
γ = specific conductivity (electrical) at 20C, mmho/cm
ok since the Mods took off html codeing i cant make this look very perty so i moved the spreadsheet hereunomaha
(All data taken from CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics 56th edition 1975-1976) - i know its an old book but not like these things change any
Copper Sulfate,Pentahydrate aka Cupric Sulfate
Blue vitriol
CuSO4.5H2O - means that it has a crystailc structure that holds 5 water molicules
Molar Weight = 249.68
Density = 2.284
Melting Point (C) (-4H2O) = 110
Boiling Point (C) (-5H2O) = 150
A% = anhydrous solute weight per cent, g solute/100g solution
H% = hydrated solute weight per cent, g solute/100 solution
p = relative density at 20ºC, kg/1
D = specific gravity at 20ºC
Cs = anhydrous solute concentration, g/l
M = molar concentration, g-mol/l
Cw = total water concentration, g/l
(C0 – Cw ) = water displaced by anhydrous solute, g/l
(n – n0) x 10 = index of refraction increment avobe index of refraction of pure water 10^4 at 20ºC
n = index of refraction at 20ºC
Δ = freezing point depression a, ºC
O = osmolality, OS/kg water
S = osmosity, molar concentration of NaCl solution having same freezing point of osmotic pressure as given solution, g-mol/l
ή/ήo = relative viscosity, ratio of the absolute viscosity at 20ºC to the absolute viscosity of water at 20ºC
ή/p = kinematic viscosity, ratio of absolute viscosity at 20ºC to relative density
φ = fluidity, reciprocal of absolute viscosity at 20ºC
T = condosity, molar concentration of NaCl solution having same specific conductance (electrical) at 20ºC as given solution, g-mol
γ = specific conductivity (electrical) at 20C, mmho/cm
ok since the Mods took off html codeing i cant make this look very perty so i moved the spreadsheet here
unomaha (All data taken from CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics 56th edition 1975-1976) - i know its an old book but not like these things change any
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OP
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2001
- Location
- Seattle Washington
- Thread Starter
- #44
thats great man. thank you for that. could you go ahead and break those numbers down into something digestable? lets look at it in this way. can you run the numbers assuming that copper sulphate has been totally saturated in an appropriate amount of water in order to make blue vitriol, and then supply the numbers for the freezing point, dynamic viscosity ratings (cP), thermal conductivity, and the specific heat index?
thanks again mr man.
thanks again mr man.
... Methanol is the main ingredient in winshield wiper fluid and is used in chlorine free bleaches, paints, solvents, refrigerants and disinfectants.
I just found this info http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~ackleym/mtfm3a.html
Bob, what do you think? I was surprised at this news... I'm wondering if winshield wiper fluid would be a good alternative.
-Eli
Looks like I won't be able to test out the methanol after all. I realized the mixture I have is 20% gasoline.. Doh!
I just found this info http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/~ackleym/mtfm3a.html
Bob, what do you think? I was surprised at this news... I'm wondering if winshield wiper fluid would be a good alternative.
-Eli
Looks like I won't be able to test out the methanol after all. I realized the mixture I have is 20% gasoline.. Doh!
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Well, I've spent the last few hours looking at data sheets for washer fluids. It seems most have about a 30-35% ratio of methanol to deionized water.
Here's a typical spec:
BOILING RANGE: Approximately 64.5ºC -100ºC
FLASH POINT: Approximately 101ºF
SOLUBILITY IN WATER: Soluble
VAPOR PRESSURE: 42mm @ 20ºC (methanol)
VAPOR DENSITY: 1.11 (methanol)
IONIZATION POTENTIAL: 10.84 eV (methanol)
FREEZING POINT: Approximately -30ºF
Not the most useful info.
Iwasn't able to find any info regarding heat transfer, but I imagine it's quite similar to the methanol/water 33/66 ratio.
From what I've been reading, it doesn't react w/ anything and has balanced ph.
Seems like it's a viable option.
Anyone w/ more info on this?
-Eli
Here's a typical spec:
BOILING RANGE: Approximately 64.5ºC -100ºC
FLASH POINT: Approximately 101ºF
SOLUBILITY IN WATER: Soluble
VAPOR PRESSURE: 42mm @ 20ºC (methanol)
VAPOR DENSITY: 1.11 (methanol)
IONIZATION POTENTIAL: 10.84 eV (methanol)
FREEZING POINT: Approximately -30ºF
Not the most useful info.
Iwasn't able to find any info regarding heat transfer, but I imagine it's quite similar to the methanol/water 33/66 ratio.
From what I've been reading, it doesn't react w/ anything and has balanced ph.
Seems like it's a viable option.
Anyone w/ more info on this?
-Eli
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- Joined
- Apr 15, 2001
- Location
- Turku, Finland
r0ckstarbob said:
That freezing point depression value is so little as previously noted that copper sulpahate (or other salts) is not a viable option for your purposes. It means that with 5% solution you have freezing point of -0.594°C which is almost the same as for pure water... If that is not yet saturated solution it will not change much anyway.
OP
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2001
- Location
- Seattle Washington
- Thread Starter
- #48
yeah i figured as much. oh well. anyone tried Coffee/Caffine yet?
i'm being half serious here.
i'm being half serious here.
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2001
- Location
- Turku, Finland
r0ckstarbob said:yeah i figured as much. oh well. anyone tried Coffee/Caffine yet?
i'm being half serious here.
Hmm...
Some solid organic water soluble molecule might do it. It is just that coffeine has quite limited solubility in water.
Methanol seems to be the best for fully closed system at sub-zero temperatures. Gains are anyway so minimal with any better water based coolant that I doubt its worth exploring.
OP
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2001
- Location
- Seattle Washington
- Thread Starter
- #50
agreed. was thinking of perhaps improving the viscosity of water without impinging upon it's thermal properties. it's not an improvement over using methanol for colder stuffs, but for a normal ambient watercooled system, an increase in the performance of water in any manner would certainly be of interest, no?
i dunno. i'm wandering and rambly today. stuffs bouncin around in my head like wildfire. just one of the million and a half things i was thinkin about..
i dunno. i'm wandering and rambly today. stuffs bouncin around in my head like wildfire. just one of the million and a half things i was thinkin about..
sorry i havent broke that data down, havent had time.
If you could prevent the hydrogen bonding that takes place in water then you could lower the viscosity of the water.(of course the hydrogen bonding is the onlything that keeps the water a liquid at room temp).
I do believe that heavy water (D2O) has almost no hydrogen bonding at all, this should lower the viscosity.
If you could prevent the hydrogen bonding that takes place in water then you could lower the viscosity of the water.(of course the hydrogen bonding is the onlything that keeps the water a liquid at room temp).
I do believe that heavy water (D2O) has almost no hydrogen bonding at all, this should lower the viscosity.
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ok here is some data I've found on deuterium oxide
Viscosity:
a = 757.9 b = 304.6
where log(viscosity) = a * ( 1/T - 1/b )
viscosity: mNs/m² (mNs ??) T: K
example D2O at 293.15K (20C)
log(viscosity)=757.9 * (1/293.15k - 1/304.6)
viscosity = 1.25
compaired to water which has .83
freezing point = 3.6C
its about 10% heavier than H2O
Viscosity:
a = 757.9 b = 304.6
where log(viscosity) = a * ( 1/T - 1/b )
viscosity: mNs/m² (mNs ??) T: K
example D2O at 293.15K (20C)
log(viscosity)=757.9 * (1/293.15k - 1/304.6)
viscosity = 1.25
compaired to water which has .83
freezing point = 3.6C
its about 10% heavier than H2O
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2001
- Location
- Turku, Finland
I checked D2O about month ago (didn't write about it then) and noticed that it has poorer thermal properties compared to H2O. That data was in Handbook of Chemistry and Physics if I remember right.
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- Nov 5, 2001
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- Estonia, Tallinn
but dont oils do ?
cant u use some kinda oils thats waht electrysity companeies do i think they can hadle some - deg in celsius
and here is a limnk wich can provide some help about future duno if its really good stuff but it seems 2 be its link for the subj i postedmineral oil cooling part 1 and part 2 my ideas about subj.
can they really help duno
cant u use some kinda oils thats waht electrysity companeies do i think they can hadle some - deg in celsius
and here is a limnk wich can provide some help about future duno if its really good stuff but it seems 2 be its link for the subj i postedmineral oil cooling part 1 and part 2 my ideas about subj.
can they really help duno
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Location
- Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada
From what I remember of copper sulphate from advanced level chemistry in High School and from my own messing around with the stuff to copper plate things..... it's not something you want in your cooling system....... Unless it's 100% pure copper.
One of the considerations in a mixed metal cooling system is *reducing* electrolytic action, to inhibit electrolytic corrosion due to the standard potential differences between metals. That's why those water wetter additives are a damn good idea. Copper Sulphate is a DAMN GOOD electrolyte, it will plate steel bearing and aluminum bearing parts with CuSo4 becomes sulphuric acid, and eats at the metallic copper in the system to change back into CuSo4, so you'll have a gradual erosion of copper parts and deposition on non copper parts.
About the only use you might find for CuSo4 is deliberate plating of the bottom of sinks or thermal interfaces with the stuff, using a sacrificial anode, like a bit of cutoff copper pipe.
Now you might like to think you have an all copper system, but what about those brass nipples and fittings, what exactly is in that water pump.......
If of course you have an aluminum based PVC jacketed and piped block, and use a plastic shower head as an evaporative cooler, the aluminum being about the only direct contact metal you have in the system, then you might like to give it a try, but I wouldn't really recommend it.
Common Salt will have similar electrolytic corrosive effects, but is actually LESS corrosive than copper sulphate in this regard, ( half as many ions) and you probably all know how bad common salt is for your car.....
Just trying to save you guys some grief,
regards,
Road Warrior
One of the considerations in a mixed metal cooling system is *reducing* electrolytic action, to inhibit electrolytic corrosion due to the standard potential differences between metals. That's why those water wetter additives are a damn good idea. Copper Sulphate is a DAMN GOOD electrolyte, it will plate steel bearing and aluminum bearing parts with CuSo4 becomes sulphuric acid, and eats at the metallic copper in the system to change back into CuSo4, so you'll have a gradual erosion of copper parts and deposition on non copper parts.
About the only use you might find for CuSo4 is deliberate plating of the bottom of sinks or thermal interfaces with the stuff, using a sacrificial anode, like a bit of cutoff copper pipe.
Now you might like to think you have an all copper system, but what about those brass nipples and fittings, what exactly is in that water pump.......
If of course you have an aluminum based PVC jacketed and piped block, and use a plastic shower head as an evaporative cooler, the aluminum being about the only direct contact metal you have in the system, then you might like to give it a try, but I wouldn't really recommend it.
Common Salt will have similar electrolytic corrosive effects, but is actually LESS corrosive than copper sulphate in this regard, ( half as many ions) and you probably all know how bad common salt is for your car.....
Just trying to save you guys some grief,
regards,
Road Warrior
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2001
- Location
- Modesto, CA, USA
Wow, I remember hearing about rockstar's Core Project a few months ago when I first registered here. It's great to see that he's really going somewhere.
I too have been looking into liquid cooling solutions and from what I've seen in this thread and from the data I've come up with it sounds like a 33:66 ratio of Methanol-Water seems to be the best, even though the thermal conductivity isn't as high as water, it's still pretty damn high, plus you have more headroom on how cold you can go. Now, since it's more viscous would that mean you need a more powerful or less powerful pump if you were to have a full liquid cooling solution (cpu, gpu, north/south bridge, etc.)? Oh ya, have you guys figured out what the best pipes/clamps would be if your using methanol-water to avoid
any kind of leak that could do serious damage?
-SUlfUR
I too have been looking into liquid cooling solutions and from what I've seen in this thread and from the data I've come up with it sounds like a 33:66 ratio of Methanol-Water seems to be the best, even though the thermal conductivity isn't as high as water, it's still pretty damn high, plus you have more headroom on how cold you can go. Now, since it's more viscous would that mean you need a more powerful or less powerful pump if you were to have a full liquid cooling solution (cpu, gpu, north/south bridge, etc.)? Oh ya, have you guys figured out what the best pipes/clamps would be if your using methanol-water to avoid
any kind of leak that could do serious damage?
-SUlfUR
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2000
I would not use simple plastic "snap" clamps. I'd go with metal screw clamps (and I am!).
Like "Ralphing" I too have been surfing the MSDS sheets for Windshield Washing Fluid and yes, the typical ratio is 33/66 give or take.
Here's my question: "RAIN-X" makes their own WWF but they add that special Rain-X stuff to it to make the water on your windshield roll off quickly. That stuff basically reduces a windshield's friction allowing the water to not stick to it as easily... as I understand it. So, would that be EVEN BETTER than just a 33/66 mix? Or would the slicky Rain-X cause problems or reduce heat transfer or make evil demons rise from your waterblock?!? What does everyone think?!?
Like "Ralphing" I too have been surfing the MSDS sheets for Windshield Washing Fluid and yes, the typical ratio is 33/66 give or take.
Here's my question: "RAIN-X" makes their own WWF but they add that special Rain-X stuff to it to make the water on your windshield roll off quickly. That stuff basically reduces a windshield's friction allowing the water to not stick to it as easily... as I understand it. So, would that be EVEN BETTER than just a 33/66 mix? Or would the slicky Rain-X cause problems or reduce heat transfer or make evil demons rise from your waterblock?!? What does everyone think?!?
Just for info I have been running a refrigerator water cooled system for about a week now and have been using a combo of an ethylene glycol antifreeze (33%) and water. Using plain water in an evaporating system I was getting a 10C differential between the coolant and the CPU. Using the glycol based coolant I am getting a 13C differential. This equates to 76% of plain water which corresponds well with the figures in the database. Tomorrow I am going to try a combo of ethyl alcohol and water in the same combo to see what I get. I am not sure if the viscosity of the ethylene glycol is a contributing factor as the flow rate is obviously very much slower than plain water. I will see with the alcohol combo because it has much the same properties as glycol except it has a lower viscosity than water.
