Freon or Water

[RyanK27]

i was planning on using car freon seeing as it is easily accessible and legal. My dad is about to run me to goodwill to look for an old fridge or something similar. I might pick up an old comp to tear apart for the fun of it. my old 486 is pretty much done.

 

[schismspeak]

Think about it how much does it cost to fill up the freon in the car $110.00 - $150.00 shoot they could charge $60.00 for this BUT of course freon could go the life of the PC

That is how much THEY CHARGE, my dad can do it for $20 or less, the "freon" they use in most cars and airconditioners now is called 'R-134A' you can buy it at wal-mart, it is legal you dont need a liscense because the new stuff is non-toxic and doesnt deplete the ozone layer. The stuff you guys are thinkin of that is freon, is called 'R-12' I believe you have to have a liscense to use it, but it is really expensive and isnt worth the cost. R134A will do fine as a refrigerant.

 

[schismspeak]

Just as a note here, Freon, TRUE freon, is R-12. It's a Chloroflourocarbon and hence it's production has been banned for some years now. That's why it's so expensive. R-134 (I know) and R-22 (I think) are actually hydroflourocarbons. They are thought to contribute to global warming but don't eat up the ozone layer at least.

Also, propane can be used in place of R-12, freon. It's just (obviously) a bit more dangerous.

I wouldn't try a mini-fridge. They really aren't made for running constantly and I'd imagine you'd burn it up pretty quick trying to cool off all the heat of a modern CPU.

Sorry man didnt see your post before I put mine up He is right guys, I would try to find an a/c unit instead, or a pop machine, they run for extended amounts of time.

 

[thesoupnazi]

Wow...

I just realized that my dad fixes refrigerators and freezers... Maybe I could get him to help me with some extreme cooling!

 

[Avatar28]

One other thing. Are you trying to basically build your own vapochill? Or are you wanting to just basically set up water cooling but using air conditioning refrigerant? Cause if the latter, it won't work.

 

[LiquidVision]

Hey dude here is a system BUT man its expensive $689.00USD

http://www.frozencpu.com/cgi-bin/frozencpu/ex-con-03.html?id=Mtgc5YtV

Not freon but a Vapor Cooling System

 

[CamH]

I wouldn't try a mini-fridge. They really aren't made for running constantly and I'd imagine you'd burn it up pretty quick trying to cool off all the heat of a modern CPU.

We'll see about that. I'm building a computer inside of a mini fridge.

 

[RyanK27]

sweet inside one thats awesome. are you gonna have a comp case in there or fit the Fridge to be the case?

 

[Afmo]

Freon is the ****nat

 

[FunkDaMonkMan]

Freon is the ****nat

Troll Alert!!!!!! You have posted 6 or 7 of these useless comments in the past 5 minutes!!! Don't expect to get into the classifieds like that bud..... You'll probably never see them.

 

[Gautam]

If you're going to do extreme cooling, this is a must-read.

Simply putting freon into a normal watercooling system wouldn't do anything but give you horrible temps. A minifrigde will not be able to handle the heat of todays processors. They use very weak compressors which would end up failing very quickly in direct die usage. What you can do is use the minifridge to chill the water in a conventional watercooling system. For this you'd need a coolant in your watercooling setup that could take below zero temps. Antifreeze is often enough.

Building a computer inside a minifridge is not a good idea for a multitude of reasons. Dealing with condensation would be incredibly difficult, and even if you insulated every part of the computer, it would most likely end up dying in a matter of weeks anyways. The temps would not even be anything spectacular; you'd still have to use a heatsink, and a conventional watercooling system could come close to its performance.

No offense, but you'e trying to dive into something very extreme and potentially even dangerous without fulling understanding its implications.

 

[Silversinksam]

You have posted 6 or 7 of these useless comments in the past 5 minutes!!! Don't expect to get into the classifieds like that bud..... You'll probably never see them.

He's right.

 

[vonkaar]

Aye... none of this is really all that new. Phaze change coolers is something that is *well* documented and talked about throughout these forums. Do some searches on Phaze Change, Promethia(or prommy) and Vapochill. They are the comercially available systems that use the same concept as your full-sized fridge. The 'no lan-parties' comment was a little off as well. The things are *definitely* heavier, but still managable by those few non-girly techno-geeks. Otherwise, I've seen people mount their Prommy-cooled systems on those foldable tech-dollies (carts, not barbies) and roll them around.

Other than the ridiculously absurd cooling schemes (ex: recycled N02 through Flourotide-bathed MB), Phaze-Chaging seems to be the highest performing cooling method. Performance + reliability = happy computer dorks everywhere!

 

[vonkaar]

It also might help if you spelled PHASE correctly. I seem to have eaten too many paint-chips this morning.

 

[I.M.O.G.]

Wow, what's happening to our forums? This thread went on for about 20 posts before someone who knew what they were talking about helped out. I'll blame it on the thread being kind of in the wrong forum.

These are the best links on phase change CPU cooling that I am aware of; anyone who is seriously interested in using phase change cooling MUST READ these:

Beginners class 101 by Bowman:
http://www.phase-change.com/index.php?action=Articles_page&cat=Articles&id=21&page=1

Refrigeration guide:
http://www.wc101.com/guides/refridgeration/
__________________________________________________

And a note on minifridges, they aren't great. Like was said earlier, the cheap minifridges can have very underpowered compressors that won't do the job - but if you get a minifridge with a compressor, there are people who say this works for them. Also, often times these mini-fridges don't use compressors at all, but instead they use TEC's to create their chill. These will not handle the cpu thermal load at all.

Building a PC inside a fridge has been considered before. Some people who haven't done their research have probably gone ahead and tried it, to later find their computer no longer functions. Condensation forms on subambient surfaces, and it can form very quickly depending on the air temperature, surface temperature, and humidity present...

Condensation:

Condensation depends on surface temperature, air temperature, humidity, and air pressure. Air pressure is negligible if your region is relatively close to 1ATM.

This chart shows the surface temperatures (in black) that condesation will begin to form at:

Chart is by and from Bladerunner of these forums.

What's this mean? Open that fridge door and you are going to have some considerable condensation forming all over every component = NOT GOOD. Unless you have a real interesting solution, you would have to wait everytime you want to insert a disk or anything of that sort, so that you could pull the plug on the fridge and let the components warm up so you can open the fridge door to your PC.
__________________________________________________

For more information, either ask more questions or do a search for these keywords (All these keywords are spelled correctly):

phase change, prometia, vapochill, refridgeration, direct die*

If you need to narrow down your results you can use the username Warlord2... he always hangs out in extreme cooling and is very knowledgeable.

Here is a link to the Extreme Cooling forum where phase change, TEC's, and chillers are most often discussed. There is plenty to be learned just by perusing through this section:

http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=72

 

[Ffats]

Wouldn't a mini-fridge produce too much condensation to run electronics in?. How do you run the cables out, anyway, heh.

 

[madman_sam81]

Well, I too, have a fair amount of experience with A/C cooling (In the automotive field). I am certified by ASE to work on automotive A/C systems (I only have 4 of the 8 ASE certs. so far though...=\).

1) Freon is a brand name, not the name of a product, such as R134-a (The refridgerant currently used in all cars...that I know of), or R-12 (The refridgerant formerly used in cars).

2) You must be liscensed to purchase R-12. Although, the test to become liscensed is rediculously easy.

3) R-22 is the type of refridgerant used in home applications (Refridgerators, etc.).

4) A few of the reasons R-12 requires a licsense to be purchased:

a) It doesn't need any physical action applied to it (Compressing, decompressing) to be able to instantly freeze anything it comes into contact with (very dangerous)...so, it was a handy tool in the pocket of any lock-pickers, safe-crackers, etc.

b) One of the old methods of testing an A/C system for leaks was to light a torch and run it (not touching) along the lines of the A/C system. If there were a leak present, the flame would go from blue, to green. There was a reason for this...a very bad one! When R-12 comes into contact with a flame source, the resulting product would be Mustard Gas...some not-very-nice stuff!

c) It depletes the ozone. Which is why there are laws against venting it, along with any form of refridgerant, into the atmosphere...the "Intent To Vent" law (Cheezy enough for you?).


However, R-12 was a much, much more efficient refridgerant than the current R134-a is. So, some people are clinging to their R-12 systems...as it is still legal, to the liscensed person. A little interesting "food for thought"...Propane (and I think possibly butane, but not positive) are far more efficient, still, than R-12 is. However, I don't know of anyone with a "package" big enough to attempt working on, or building a system filled with pressurized propane...right next to cylinders, in which there is gas being combusted! I don't imagine it would mix too well...

Anyways, until the cost, alone, of building such a system to use on a computer comes way down...it is nowhere near worth it. Especially when there are far more conventional methods which yield more than satisfactory results.

Not only would it cost more than I have to kick around, but the hassle of taking on such a task isn't something I have time for. Nor would I even choose to take on, if I did have the time.

My guess is, you'll end up lining up the, now, dead parts of your computer along-side the components of your, still not installed, A/C system, kick yourself a few times, and leave the room.

 

[madman_sam81]

By the way...

As far as I have understood it, the Anti-Freeze used in the coolant in your car does nothing more than raise the boiling point and lower the freezing point of the water. Which is why you should ALWAYS use 50% antifreeze and 50% pure water. Antifreeze, by itself, will both boil and freeze at the normal tempuratures for water. It is nothing more than a catalyst for the water.

The two methods used to raise the boiling point of the water in your car's cooling system:

1) Using a 50-50 mix of antifreeze and pure water
2) Pressurizing the coolant system (Read the label on your radiator cap, it should show a pressure rating). I don't remember off the top of my head (I have it in one of my books...) but I know that for every Lb./in.^2 of pressure you place on the water, it raises the boiling point by a certain number of degrees.

 

[Janissary]

Well the initial question was "Freon instead of water?" if I'm not wrong, not "Phase change or WC?" so the right aproach would be Is freon a better heat dissipator than water? and as far as I know it is not better than water, then comes the question is there a better material then water to use in a WC system and ehh OK no more and we are off-topic anyhow :\

 

[madman_sam81]

Did he just say that freon is not better than water for taking away heat?