How much RAD does this =?

[Lyian]

Reading though the Beginners guide several times (and even more times for reference) im debating how how much radiator i need for the loop i want to make. The problem is, the guide only references 120mm size. However with my case (Haf X) I know i can fit a dual 200mm up top.

The main question is, how much does a 200mm rad equal in terms of 120s, and will the 2x200 (or 200.2) be enough to cool an i7 Ivybridge & 2 GPU's? (not i dont have the i7 or dual video cards i want to do this with just yet, but im starting to peice together the WC loop so i dont have to buy it all at once.)

There are a few other places i can put Rads, such as a 200mm spot up front, as well as a 140mm spot in the back (tho im thinking it might not be a good idea to have every exhaust in the case with a RAD on it). So if the dual 200mm wouldn't be enough, would a 2nd, 200mm intake RAD be enough?

I've been reading over that a few times, as well as watching alot of youtube videos on peoples WC setups. (due to the guide, ive been kinda bothered by how many people use dyed water in their loops lol) So ill likely ask alot of questions, Tho i will do my best to not ask any that are covered in the guide or in more recent posts.

Thanks.

 

[EarthDog]

There are 200mm rads available? I had no idea.

a 200mm rad, all other things the same (FPI/depth/flow/etc), has around 75% more surface area to keep things cool. I would imagine two of those would cool an i7 and 2 GPUs adequately, not great.

 

[Lyian]

There are 200mm rads available?

This is what i was looking at. I know 200mm's have been out for a while, but this is the first time ive seen a dual one.

Phobya Xtreme 400mm Radiator

One reviewer said it fits nicely in the top of the Haf-X case.

 

[Luis_GT]

You could also add a 140mm rad in the rear of the case, that is if the half-x has the same exhaust fan size as the had 932.

1 360mm (120.3) rad is more than enough for a ivy bridge overlooked to hell, with a 200.2 and a a 140 rad I would bet its more than enough for dual gpus and ivy. And if not, I would suggest deciding the ivy as the temp drops can vary between 10 and 20c

 

[EarthDog]

I really wish people would stop throwing around delidding (assuming that is what you meant) like its child's play. While its not rocket science, you are blowing the warranty for very little reason in most cases.

Understand also that temperatures /= heat load or TDP. So regardless if the CPU is at 80C or 65C, its still putting out the same amount of wattage for the system to cool.

 

[Luis_GT]

I really wish people would stop throwing around delidding (assuming that is what you meant) like its child's play. While its not rocket science, you are blowing the warranty for very little reason in most cases.

Understand also that temperatures /= heat load or TDP. So regardless if the CPU is at 80C or 65C, its still putting out the same amount of wattage for the system to cool.

I just mentioned it as a last result, the fact that the gap between the die and the IHS is considerable, you're gonna reach a tdp lower than what the cooler would theoretically be able to dissipate due to poor heat transfer.

 

[EarthDog]

Perhaps I wasnt clear. Temperature and the heatload/tdp are not the same. Let me give an example... a lighter with a mostly red-orange flame and a bonfire with a mostly red-orange flame. Which is hotter? Answer, they are both the same temperature since the flame color is the same, however the amount of heatload in the bonfire is exponentially more.

Temperatures will lower, yes, but the amount of heat being dumped in the loop with be exactly the same. I benchmakr and wont delid...I need every degree C and wont do it. Not sure why anyone else would even do it to be honest. The chip at 65C will last just as long (useable life) than the same chip at 75C. Both will need upgraded before that temperature difference means anything. It means more to most to ruin a warranty than temps (at least, it should...to me of course).

 

[Bobnova]

77w is 77w, no matter how hot it is. TDP (Thermal Design Power) is unchanged, as that is an energy production/consumption measurement, and the energy production/consumption is unchanged regardless of cooling.
Consider the temperature of your CPU (77w stock) vs a radioshack 15w soldering iron. At stock your CPU will run somewhere between 50c and 80c (varies by cooler, VID, TIM, etc.), the soldering iron will run around 426c, despite being far lower wattage. Wattage != temperature.

The temperature of the die is changed by cooling, the wattage of electricity it consumes and turns into heat is identical (to plenty of zeros, at least) at 0c and 100c.

As for delidding, you're essentially taking a razor to a $300 CPU to allow yourself to kill it more quickly with voltage.
You'd be better off taking that same $300 and buying lottery tickets, you have a better chance of a meaningful return that way.

At best, you delid it and lower core temps at a high OC by 20c. This allows you to raise the voltage, which will eventually be fatal.
Now of course you don't have a warranty on the CPU (which you could have, even overclocked! Intel sells OCing warranties now, for not much money).
Plus of course you can easily kill the thing in the delidding process.

The only time I would recommend delidding is if you're planning on cooling your CPU with dry ice, a SS unit, cascade, or liquid nitrogen. Even then, it's a dubious gain for a very high risk.

 

[Luis_GT]

We're both misunderstanding each other, yes, the tdp will be the same keeping all the variables the same, but the efficiency of the cooler will be hindered due to poor contact between the heat source and the cooling source. Basically delliding makes heat dissipation more effective. I've been a benchmarker for over 8 years and taking advantage of every single degree possible makes that last extra MHz available for increasing that 1 point that may give me the lead.

Now, if you say it's not worth it, that's your opinion, but the extra 300mhz and increased TDP transferred into the loop more effectively to me says it is worth it.

The fact that OC'ing voids warranty makes the whole delidding argument due to warranty voiding mute...

 

[EarthDog]

I think its a terminology thing... there isnt an increase in TDP transferred as we have stated a couple of times. Its just making the temperature lower. Temperature and TDP are not the same thing. The loop deals with the same TDP/heatload assuming the same load/voltage with the only difference being delidded/not.

I(we) see what you are saying for each boint, and Kudos for you for doing that, but this, to me, is not worth it for 99% of people, yet I have seen people, you/Ivanlabrie mention to do it like its turning on a light switch. Remember, he killed his b/c of delidding (not directly, but, was part of the problem that caused the damage).

 

[Bobnova]

OCing does not void the Intel OC warranty.

TDP is a theoretical number, it isn't transfered anywhere, it doesn't even exist.
Delidding will lower core temperatures.
It will not cause it to produce more heat, nor less heat.
It will not put more heat into anything, nor will it put less heat into anything.
The only thing it does is allow the die to run cooler. That's it.
Well and risk killing the chip outright, and void the (intact, for $25) warranty.


If you want to get really specific you're looking at thermal transfer efficiency.
Lower efficiency with a given heatload means higher temps, it does NOT mean that less heat is being transferred! It only means that the heatsource's temperature ends up higher than its cooling device than it would with a better efficiency connection.

You don't have to explain benching to me, I understand that, don't worry! If you'd like to play the credentials game, I lead the #8 team in the world (overclockers.com!), and am personally ranked #171 in the xtreme OC league, with ~552 league points. Profile link: http://www.hwbot.org/user/bobnova/
I understand benching. I understand cooling for benching.


Mostly I think we have a language/terminology difficulty.

 

[Luis_GT]

He killed the motherboard and cpu by bending the pins, but you can bend pins on a mobo even without delidding, so delidding wasn't the main cause, it may have helped since removing the cpu becomes a bit harder when you have to worry about 2 pieces instead of 1.

I'm mad, and being an engineer, disassembling and modifying comes natural to me. So I didn't find it hard.

 

[Bobnova]

That's fine, but you're recommending it to people who aren't mad, or engineers, or proficient in assembling/disassembling. That's the issue I have with the advice to delid things.
Easy for you is not the same as easy for everybody.

I don't expect everybody to be able to easily manufacture a furnace, burner and crucible and then melt/pour aluminum, despite it being easy for me.
Same answer for voltmodding 7970s, rebuilding engines, etc.

 

[Luis_GT]

OCing does not void the Intel OC warranty.

TDP is a theoretical number, it isn't transfered anywhere, it doesn't even exist.
Delidding will lower core temperatures.
It will not cause it to produce more heat, nor less heat.
It will not put more heat into anything, nor will it put less heat into anything.
The only thing it does is allow the die to run cooler. That's it.
Well and risk killing the chip outright, and void the (intact, for $25) warranty.


If you want to get really specific you're looking at thermal transfer efficiency.
Lower efficiency with a given heatload means higher temps, it does NOT mean that less heat is being transferred! It only means that the heatsource's temperature ends up higher than its cooling device than it would with a better efficiency connection.

You don't have to explain benching to me, I understand that, don't worry! If you'd like to play the credentials game, I lead the #8 team in the world (overclockers.com!), and am personally ranked #171 in the xtreme OC league, with ~552 league points. Profile link: http://www.hwbot.org/user/bobnova/
I understand benching. I understand cooling for benching.


Mostly I think we have a language/terminology difficulty.

So you have money to buy the latest and greatest and have access to extreme cooling, let me applaud you...

I play with ambient cooling only, and have never had the latest and greatest since I can't afford it.

 

[EarthDog]

Looks like latest and greatest in your sig to me Luis... we all start benching on our daily driver... just takes the ehhh... 'fortitude' to do it (took me a while...but slowly built up a stash of hardware so now I dont!).

I do applaud you however, for not being able to afford the latest and greatest (that is in your sig) but you will delid that same $300 processor...Kuhonies there bro! Bench on!

Anyhoo, enough harrasment of silly proportions... to each their own sir.

 

[Lyian]

Holy flying off topic Batman!

I didn't even know what delidding was until now, and looking at the process, there is not way i would even conciser doing that. Im not that desperate for lower temps to tear up such an expensive piece of hardware.

Getting back on topic,

You could also add a 140mm rad in the rear of the case, that is if the half-x has the same exhaust fan size as the had 932.

As i mentioned, the Half-x does have a 140 in the back, however id be concerned putting rads on ALL the exhaust places on the case, being worried that it may muck up the airflow and retain too much heat inside the case itself, which is why would rather conciser putting a 200mm rad up front (for the intake) if the 400mm isnt enough.

 

[Luis_GT]

Holy flying off topic Batman!

I didn't even know what delidding was until now, and looking at the process, there is not way i would even conciser doing that. Im not that desperate for lower temps to tear up such an expensive piece of hardware.

Getting back on topic,



As i mentioned, the Half-x does have a 140 in the back, however id be concerned putting rads on ALL the exhaust places on the case, being worried that it may muck up the airflow and retain too much heat inside the case itself, which is why would rather conciser putting a 200mm rad up front (for the intake) if the 400mm isnt enough.

It won't, since the rad fans will be exhausting all the air in the case, and considering how weak the case fan that comes with the case is, the exhaust flow will increase with the rad and a good fan.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

IS THE COAST CLEAR????!!!!

.............Ok now time for a

Good grief. lmfao

I learned alot about delidding as well. Earth is right and you shouldn't give that kind of advice to folks building their first H20 rigs as they need to focus their attention in building a PC with water in it. Delidding I believe is for more advanced folks like you guys and a very small minority do these kind of things.

Back on topic yes.

I would put some good fans in the front and position the radiators up top and the back, as the fans on those radiators will push the warm air out of the case.

 

[Lyian]

IS THE COAST CLEAR????!!!!

.............Ok now time for a

Good grief. lmfao

I learned alot about delidding as well. Earth is right and you shouldn't give that kind of advice to folks building their first H20 rigs as they need to focus their attention in building a PC with water in it. Delidding I believe is for more advanced folks like you guys and a very small minority do these kind of things.

Back on topic yes.

I would put some good fans in the front and position the radiators up top and the back, as the fans on those radiators will push the warm air out of the case.

Works for me. Putting a 140 in the back would be easier to connect to the loop (and a shorter run) than putting a 200mm up front anyway. The only question would be how thick that 140 would need to be. I wouldnt think it would need to be too thick, considering it would be working with a 400mm at the top, but then the thick version doesn't seem that much more. But then theirs all that added thickness with the fan.

Heres a list of what im planning to get (so far) for the setup. Not much is set in stone yet, and im far from actually building it, im just trying to plan it out correctly before i start buying.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=726086