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How to make sure 2TB Western Digital is good for Windows XP + pick the best one

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That answer was actually helpful. We have made excellent progress. Now, if the objective was identical and 2 (two) partitions were to be made for identical purpose, would this be correct:


1. Boot into Win7 (not WinXP) > Start > Administrative Tools > Computer Management > Storage > Disk Management > Scroll down to the Disk and Right click on it > Delete Volume... > Yes.

2. Right click > New Simple Volume > Next > Enter size of first partition > Next > Next > Next > Finish.

3. Create a New Simple Volume on the remaining space on the drive.


Would those three steps correctly achieve the objective?
 
Draft 2​

Advanced Format technology hard drives use sectors with 4,096 bytes of user data. They are not optimized for Windows XP or earlier operating systems.

If you have a Western Digital Advanced Format drive, you have the option of placing a jumper on pins 7-8 which then allow these drives to be optimally used by Windows XP if they are single partition drives. WD documentation seems to indicate that this turns on the emulation in the drive. For multiple partitions, WD Advanced Format Hard Drive Utility http://www.wdc.com/global/products/features/?id=7&language=1 is required as WD documentation seems to indicate that this is the only way to turn on the emulation in the drive.


Drives made by other manufacturers using Advanced Format technology (such as Seagate SmartAlign drives) do not use pins or software so they should be partitioned and/or formatted under Windows 7 for later use on Windows XP or modern partition software should be used rather than partitioning and/or formatting them inside Windows XP.


Once again, for single partition Advanced Format WD drives, place a jumper on pins 7-8 and boot into Windows XP > Control Panel > Administrative Tools > Computer Management > Storage > Disk Management >

A Wizard will pop-up in Windows XP to initialize the disk. CHECK the disk to be initialized but UNCHECK the disk when asked to convert it to a dynamic disk. Then right click on the Disk > New Partition... > Next > Next > Next > Next > UNCHECK: Perform a quick format > Next > Finish


 
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Now, if the objective was identical and 2 (two) partitions were to be made for identical purpose, would this be correct:


1. Boot into Win7 (not WinXP) > Start > Administrative Tools > Computer Management > Storage > Disk Management > Scroll down to the Disk and Right click on it > Delete Volume... > Yes.

2. Right click > New Simple Volume > Next > Enter size of first partition > Next > Next > Next > Finish.

3. Create a New Simple Volume on the remaining space on the drive.


Would those three steps correctly achieve the objective?

Beats me: I've never used Win7 Disk Management to create a partition (and quite possibly never will: I prefer a lot more detailed control over the process). But I'd certainly expect that it would meet the objective if you've got the point-and-click sequences right.
 
Perhaps the documentation is not clear as to whether the single partition Seagate SmartAllign drives (given a choice) should be booted into WinXP or Win7 for initial formatting.


Which test would you run after doing both to determine confirm they should be initially formatted in Windows 7 rather than Windows XP for use as stated previously?
 
Draft 2​

Advanced Format technology hard drives use sectors with 4,096 bytes of user data. They are not optimized for Windows XP or earlier operating systems.

If you have a Western Digital Advanced Format drive, you have the option of placing a jumper on pins 7-8 which then allow these drives to be optimally used by Windows XP if they are single partition drives. WD documentation seems to indicate that this turns on the emulation in the drive. For multiple partitions, WD Advanced Format Hard Drive Utility http://www.wdc.com/global/products/features/?id=7&language=1 is required as WD documentation seems to indicate that this is the only way to turn on the emulation in the drive.


Drives made by other manufacturers using Advanced Format technology (such as Seagate SmartAlign drives) do not use pins or software so they should be partitioned and/or formatted under Windows 7 for later use on Windows XP or modern partition software should be used rather than partitioning and/or formatting them inside Windows XP.


Once again, for single partition Advanced Format WD drives, place a jumper on pins 7-8 and boot into Windows XP > Control Panel > Administrative Tools > Computer Management > Storage > Disk Management >

A Wizard will pop-up in Windows XP to initialize the disk. CHECK the disk to be initialized but UNCHECK the disk when asked to convert it to a dynamic disk. Then right click on the Disk > New Partition... > Next > Next > Next > Next > UNCHECK: Perform a quick format > Next > Finish



I suspect that you may have misinterpreted Robert Browning's advice that a man's reach should exceed his grasp as an endorsement of something beyond internal personal fulfillment.

You really should not attempt to describe to others how to use Advanced Format disks in environments other than those which are already optimized for them: you don't have a clue how the disks themselves work, how vendor mechanisms (such as the WD ones you attempt to describe above) to make them more amenable to use in other environments work, how other mechanisms can be used to mitigate their shortcomings in those other environments, and what the limitations of making them work elsewhere may be, you have already proven impossible to educate at the level of detail necessary to remedy those limitations, and your above attempt makes it crystal clear that trying to instruct others in this area will do more harm than good.

I suggest that you take satisfaction in having found out how to meet your own personal usage goals and let it go at that.
 
:cry:

brutal :)

There is truly nothing personal about this for me... When people are (or think they are) proficient on certain subjects, they sometimes set themselves apart from others and if subject of their expertise were to be presented in a simplified way, allowing the "less worthy" to "bask" in "their" domain, then that is somehow perceived as a threat and berating the "less worthy" ensues?


Draft 2's first 2 sentences are accurate as they are in Western Digital's official paper. The second paragraph's choice of using the pin and formatting the drive was chosen because I disagree, sir, that doing anything else is preferable as I see the pin turning on the the emulation in the drive whereas other methods are either more complicated or possibly may not achieve the same result as we all agree that documentation on the subject is murky at best. Furthermore, there is no mention of WD's software as it is unnecessary for a single partition configuration.


That leaves the question of drives made by other manufacturers and multi-partition situations. It is not 100% clear whether the single partition scenario in Seagate SmartAllign and Samsung's Advanced Areal Density drives is best achieved as described in Draft 2. I left it in there but I did open a case with those manufacturers and am awaiting their opinion on the topic.


Humans have a choice b/w light & dark, make the right choice and rather than using all your energy on eloquently berating others, re-word what was written, keeping things simplified. We are talking about NTFS partitions on modern systems so other information such as mentioning FAT partitions can be intentionally left out.


Whenever I wrote anything, I used to preface it by making it clear that it was for my own use only and that others should not try it, see here:
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616200

Yes this is for my own use only and if others on the forum have a dual boot and a similar system to mine and buy an Advanced Format drive, maybe it will work for them too - it is their choice to make. If you disagree, then you re-word it without writing a dissertation on it and I will change what I wrote accordingly.

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You really should not attempt to describe to others how to use Advanced Format disks in environments other than those which are already optimized for them: you don't have a clue how the disks themselves work, how vendor mechanisms (such as the WD ones you attempt to describe above) to make them more amenable to use in other environments work, how other mechanisms can be used to mitigate their shortcomings in those other environments, and what the limitations of making them work elsewhere may be, you have already proven impossible to educate at the level of detail necessary to remedy those limitations, and your above attempt makes it crystal clear that trying to instruct others in this area will do more harm than good.
I don't agree with your assessment - bill. If it's not too much trouble, could you give us some technical/tutorial links so we can read and understand this subject better. I suspect none of this is rocket science and I for one could understand the concepts given the right information. c6 could too. He's also intelligent and teachable.
 
When people are (or think they are) proficient on certain subjects, they sometimes set themselves apart from others and if subject of their expertise were to be presented in a simplified way, allowing the "less worthy" to "bask" in "their" domain, then that is somehow perceived as a threat and berating the "less worthy" ensues?

That can sometimes be true, and I can certainly understand why you'd like to believe it is in the current case, but you would be mistaken if you did so.

The problem is not that you are simplifying the subject, the problem is that you are wildly misrepresenting it and appear completely incapable of accepting the fact that you neither begin to understand what you're attempting to talk about nor (from your own comments here about your inability to assimilate the subject in greater detail) seem willing (or perhaps able) to rectify that deficiency.

In short, you are becoming exactly the kind of doubtless well-meaning but completely clueless contributor you complained about in your first message to me ("Would you mind joining the discussion at overclockers on this topic: http://www.overclockers.com/forum...p?t=666121 There is so much misinformation on this topic everywhere"). I've become increasingly blunt with you only because you've consistently failed to take more subtle hints.

Draft 2's first 2 sentences are accurate as they are in Western Digital's official paper.

They may be accurately QUOTED, but the second sentence is at best misleading: the drives aren't optimized for ANY system - rather, Win7, Vista, and the newer versions of Linux are optimized for THEM.

The second paragraph's choice of using the pin and formatting the drive was chosen because I disagree, sir, that doing anything else is preferable

Why on earth do so many people (especially on the Internet) appear to believe that their opinions about a subject that they so clearly don't (and in your case to all appearances cannot) understand would be of any significance?

as I see the pin turning on the the emulation in the drive

It does nothing of the kind. The drive ALWAYS emulates 512-byte sectors, regardless of pinning or the use of the WD alignment software.

whereas other methods are either more complicated or possibly may not achieve the same result

Of course they don't achieve the same result: they achieve a more complete one and/or a more appropriate one for the specific target environment.

Furthermore, there is no mention of WD's software as it is unnecessary for a single partition configuration.

It is unnecessary, PERIOD: the disk will work just fine in all environments right out of the box. Everything we're talking about here is solely related to optimizing small-random-write-request performance in environments not designed for 4 KB sector disks.

And the choice of mechanisms for achieving such optimization depends upon exactly what mix of environments are involved. The pin 'solution' is appropriate ONLY

1. for disks where only a single, non-FAT partition positioned at the very beginning of the disk will be used,

2. where only traditional partitioning mechanisms will be used (e.g., Win7 and Vista will never be used to create or modify the partition structure - not even just to extend the size of the original single partition),

3. where any remaining area on the disk will not be used 'raw' by other (e.g., some database) software, and

4. where software that uses its own on-disk alignment optimizations WITHIN the partition (such as the SQL and Exchange server products) won't be used.

A large percentage of systems may meet all these qualifications. That leaves a significant percentage which would better be served by a different mechanism. Whether you're able to understand them or not, there are good reasons for characterizing the pin 'solution' as being quick and dirty.

It is not 100% clear whether the single partition scenario in Seagate SmartAllign and Samsung's Advanced Areal Density drives is best achieved as described in Draft 2.

"Seagate encourages our customers to use operating systems and configuration tools that create aligned hard drive partitions."

Humans have a choice b/w light & dark, make the right choice and rather than using all your energy on eloquently berating others, re-word what was written, keeping things simplified.

Your problem is your conviction that this situation can be simplified. You are wrong, and your attempt to lead others into the same error is eminently worthy of being discredited. At best, one could define a grid of specific situations and which specific approaches should work best for each - but that grid would either be extremely large or significantly incomplete.

The way *I* went about the process of simplification was to design a single mechanism which would apply to all use scenarios (at least assuming that third-party software honored the partition layout that it found on the disk). The mechanism itself (using traditional 512-byte-aligned partition layouts carefully chosen so as to create 4-KB-aligned data payloads) appears to be a bit complex for your taste, but its virtue is that it optimizes small-write performance across all environments while eliminating on-going usage risk and complexity and substituting only initial set-up complexity.

But as already observed, you don't need to deal with complexity at all: just use the disk right out of the box and all will be well - you may well not even be able to notice any performance difference in old environments using traditional partitioning layout, save perhaps in very specific situations. The cautions about mixing traditional and new partitioning layouts on the same disk still apply, but they're largely orthogonal to this discussion - though the approach I designed actually DOES attempt to deal with that problem as well as long as third-party tools honor the layout they encounter.

We are talking about NTFS partitions on modern systems so other information such as mentioning FAT partitions can be intentionally left out.

If you're only "talking about NTFS partitions on modern systems" ALL this discussion can be left out, because ALL modern systems are 4KB-sector-aware.

XP, while still a valuable work-horse, is no longer by any reasonable definition a 'modern system'. XP also fully supports FAT partitions (so does Linux - it's their main mechanism for sharing data with Windows systems, and while they've made major strides in supporting NFTS I'd still prefer not to bet my data on their implementation of it). Just because you may not personally be interested in FAT does not mean that it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Yes this is for my own use only and if others on the forum have a dual boot and a similar system to mine and buy an Advanced Format drive, maybe it will work for them too - it is their choice to make. If you disagree, then you re-word it without writing a dissertation on it and I will change what I wrote accordingly.

I have no interest whatsoever in trying to find some way to coach you into writing something other than drivel on this subject, and I've already told you that I'm done trying to explain it to you. You are certainly correct in that people who take what you have to say at face value have only themselves to blame if it turns out badly for them, and I feel that I've more than done my duty to warn them to be careful.

If others here remain interested in discussing aspects of this I'll continue to do so.
 
I don't agree with your assessment - bill. If it's not too much trouble, could you give us some technical/tutorial links so we can read and understand this subject better.

The problem is that it's hard to know where to begin. The fundamental issue with the new 4KB-sector drives is that older software assumes that it can write in naturally-aligned multiples of 512 bytes - so when it tries to do so on the new drives, the drive must internally check to see whether the requested write begins and ends on a 4 KB sector boundary and if not read any partially updated sector first, merge in the new data, and then write it back out to disk (whereas a traditional drive would just write out the 512-byte sector(s) directly to the drive without having to read any of them first.

Thus by continuing to allow old-style 512-byte-aligned requests the (current) new drives emulate the old drives in everything save small-random-write performance (small serial sequential writes can be aggregated in the on-disk cache such that at worst only the first and last sectors of the sequence need be pre-read, and reads may read in an extra sector or two but the effect of this on performance is negligible).

That's the situation from the viewpoint of the disk. I don't know whether the traditional disk tutorials on the Web have been updated to include discussion of the new drives, but they do provide a good basic overview if you need one (Google is your friend).

From the viewpoint of the operating systems, the newer systems understood that 4 KB sector drives were coming (it's taken about a full decade for them to move from proposals to store shelves) and thus took steps to accommodate their new characteristics. The drives themselves chose 4 KB as the sector size because it meshed well with existing hardware and software system usage granularity, so the systems did not have to do much other than arrange their existing multiple-of-4-KB requests such that they'd begin and end on 4 KB disk boundaries.

Virtually all such requests are aligned to the data region of the file system within the partition on the disk. NFTS aligns that data region at a 4 KB multiple from the partition's start (so I believe do the extx versions of the main Linux file system). FAT32 does not, so that rather than just align the partition start on a 4 KB disk boundary you need to arrange to align the internal data region on that boundary by adjusting the partition start location appropriately - quite possibly to something other than a 4 KB disk boundary.

Detailed information on internal file system layouts are less easily accessible on the Web but they do exist (again, Google is your friend).

Arranging for partition start locations to begin on 4 KB disk boundaries (which optimizes small-random-write performance for NTFS and extx, though not generally for FAT) was thus the main obstacle to surmount. It would have been possible to do this in a backward-compatible manner (in fact, in exactly the manner that I've been describing) for the 'MBR' style of partitioning because the MBR's data structure can't accommodate disks larger than 2 TB as long as 512-byte sectors are used or emulated, but Microsoft in its infinite wisdom chose not only to create a new way to align partitions that was incompatible with the traditional layout (such that traditional utilities which encountered it could become sufficiently confused to destroy your data) but managed in the process to allow Vista and Win7 to become similarly destructively confused when dealing with disks partitioned in the traditional manner. Descriptions of traditional MBR layout should be easy to find and have probably now been updated to include the new layout as well (GPT partitioning is considerably different and probably not relevant to this discussion).

The disk vendors are understandably reluctant to deal with explaining all this at all adequately: they just want people to buy their products. And since a great many XP (and even older) systems are still in use, they looked for a way to make the disks acceptable to those users. Seagate seems to have taken the most reasonable approach and just said, "Don't worry - be happy." WD has offered a couple of semi-solutions to appeal to the more tweak-conscious but in so doing has further complicated an already-complex environment. The WD pinning 'solution' is particularly offensive in that it causes the disk to lie to its users about its alignment (it also lies about its access granularity but, like all current Advanced Format drives, handles that transparently internally); the WD alignment software at best adjusts the partition structure to that which Vista or Win7 would have created, but to do that it would have to adjust the file system internals of the partitions as well, so my suspicion is that it also qualifies as something quicker and dirtier than one might hope for (if you can find any description of what it IS doing I'd love to see it; otherwise, I'll have to buy a WD Advanced Format disk to analyze it, and my current preference runs to Samsung).

Edit: I do recall seeing mention in a couple of places that the WD and/or Samsung alignment software was actually written by Acronis. If so, I'd have more confidence that it might be doing the right thing in terms of creating a standard new, rather than cobbled-together, layout - though I'd still like confirmation of that.

End Edit.

I suspect none of this is rocket science and I for one could understand the concepts given the right information.

It's certainly comprehensible by anyone of reasonable intelligence and mental organization who is willing to plow through the fairly extensive details.

c6 could too. He's also intelligent and teachable.

I'll have to take your word that this is true for him in other areas, since I've not seen evidence of that here. Perhaps if he can step back from his fixation that some simple, cookbook, general solution exists those attributes will become more evident.
 
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Modern drives do not require any kind of end-user 'initialization' ... These topics are part of that "even more basic primer about disk layout" that I eventually began to suspect you might need.

Windows pop-up used that term initialize. Windows specifically posted that the drive cannot be used before it is initialized and asked to initialize it so maybe they need a primer? :shrug: :)



People here have dual boots on their modern hardware, they sometimes have Windows XP as their only operating systems, their computer illiterate cousins will certainly not upgrade any time soon from Windows XP, and just the mere fact that Windows XP is used more than anything else today is enough to find this excerpt from WD paper out of touch with reality:

NotOptimizedForXP.jpg

Although these drives are not as slow as 5400 RPM drives of the past - let's be realistic - people are going to be getting these for storage and storage only. One partition. How to use these as single partition drives under Windows XP is the primary focus here and it would be a mistake to get dragged down to -bill's level and engage him in the personal. -bill is likely to be wrestling with his demons, giving in to them and expanding enormous amounts of negative energy on berating people with or without this thread.


The usefulness of -bill's post, once you get through all the personal attack stuff, is that a reminder should be inserted that once the pin is used on WD drives, the drive should not be modified under Windows Vista/7 or later MS OS and perhaps a reminder that the topic is for NTFS home use environments, I suppose and asterisk of some sort could make that clear.


The pin enables the drive to switch modes to a translated mode and since most will be using these drives as single partition storage drives, this is sound advice.


-bill quoted Seagate: "Seagate encourages our customers to use operating systems and configuration tools that create aligned hard drive partitions." Does that quote extend to scenarios under which both WinXP and Win7 are using the drive? OR are they simply saying SWITCH TO and USE Vista/7 without necessarily talking about dual boot scenarios. Samsung told me that it doesn't matter if you format Samsung Advanced Areal Density drives in Windows 7 or Windows XP given a choice. I do not think that Samsung is correct in that there is no difference.

I am awaiting Seagate's resolution of my support ticket.



Meanwhile in the real world, I used the 7-8 pin on the $69 2TB WD, it got stuck at 100% Windows XP Format for hours.

I tried the other drive and ran a format overnight for 9 hours, woke up to find the drive is still formatting without a % marker being there. An hour and half ago I rebooted and tried a quick format and it does not show any signs of format progress.


Now what, boot into Win7 w/o pin for a quick format or leave it quick formatting in WinXP (for how long?) i7 at 4 GHz system here so something must not be right with (both) drives...

EDIT: What a disaster, one drive's motor does not power up at all, the other one's got problems for sure - it hangs under BIOS detection and WD diagnostic doesn't detect it at all.
 
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All right so I escalated the case with Seagate and their official reply is that with SmartAlign Drives it does not make a difference whether you boot into Windows 7 or Windows XP to partition/format it.

Seagate then added that 'if it didn't have smart align and had over 2TB, you would probably need a special formatting software or post format alignment software'... which I find off topic since size over 2TB is completely different topic from Advanced Format topic but that's all we can get from Seagate.


EDIT: WD has a label right on the drive next to the serial numbers about what to do if the drive is to be used under Windows XP (pin, etc.) We know other manufacturers do not provide anything and I was just reading reviews on the Samsung drive complaining about the problems SAMSUNG Spinpoint F4 HD204UI has if used on a dual Win7/WinXP system.

 
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Windows pop-up used that term initialize. Windows specifically posted that the drive cannot be used before it is initialized and asked to initialize it so maybe they need a primer? :shrug: :)

Dear me - are you still babbling away, and now reaching back to an old post to try to score a point?

The context in which Microsoft used the term was for managing disks in the limited manner that Disk Management allows (specifically in this case as a precursor to creating a file system). What part of my explanation of that did you find difficult to understand (it really was brief, so you've no excuse for complaining about complexity there)?

People here have dual boots on their modern hardware, they sometimes have Windows XP as their only operating systems, their computer illiterate cousins will certainly not upgrade any time soon from Windows XP, and just the mere fact that Windows XP is used more than anything else today is enough to find this excerpt from WD paper out of touch with reality:

View attachment 90082

Ah - so you like to pick and choose between vendor statements which seem to agree with your preconceptions (which you elect to present as gospel) and those which do not (which you cheerfully dismiss as incompetent). Hardly surprising. It would be better to be able to evaluate such statements from a more enlightened perspective, but you seem implacably resistant to developing one.

Although these drives are not as slow as 5400 RPM drives of the past - let's be realistic - people are going to be getting these for storage and storage only.

And your basis for that grand generalization is what, exactly? These drives are inexpensive and energy-efficient, run coolly and quietly, and are only marginally slower in random access (and comparable in sequential-access) performance than all but the fastest current 7200 rpm drives (WD blacks: I have one and am still interested in the new Samsung Advanced Format drive as a higher-capacity replacement for it). They'll make more than adequate system drives for almost anyone.

This brings another thought to mind. Your attitude that FAT is irrelevant but dual-booting is not strikes me as remarkably self-centered (perhaps 'parochial' would be a kinder characterization). A LARGE number of XP users upgraded from Win9x systems and did not convert their file systems in the process (because, among other reasons, doing so eliminated the ability to uninstall the upgrade if they decided they did not like it). My guess would be that at least as many of such people might be interested in moving their still-FAT-based system to a new disk (if only because their old ones are approaching end-of-life status) as there are dual-booters (a far more exclusive 'techie' crowd) exploring this issue.

The pin enables the drive to switch modes to a translated mode

I see that you're still spewing this drivel even after having been corrected. There is no kind of mode-switch involved: the drive simply presents itself as if its first 512-byte virtual sector did not exist (thus causing a traditionally-created partition created at the start of the disk to start on a 4 KB disk boundary).

-bill quoted Seagate: "Seagate encourages our customers to use operating systems and configuration tools that create aligned hard drive partitions." Does that quote extend to scenarios under which both WinXP and Win7 are using the drive?

Yes.

Samsung told me that it doesn't matter if you format Samsung Advanced Areal Density drives in Windows 7 or Windows XP given a choice.

Perhaps that's because you were using terminology which you didn't understand. Not all Samsung 'advanced areal density' drives are Advanced Format (4KB sector) drives (the F4 HD322GJ, for example).

Though that statement is reasonably defensible even for Advanced Format drives, since the only difference that's noticeable at all is a usually minor degradation in small-random-write performance.

EDIT: What a disaster, one drive's motor does not power up at all, the other one's got problems for sure - it hangs under BIOS detection and WD diagnostic doesn't detect it at all.

That's unfortunate. I was about to suggest that you could make an actual contribution to this discussion by removing the jumper and seeing whether that made any difference to formating the drive under XP (just in case lying about the drive's internal alignment was causing any attempted format-optimization in XP to instead become pessimal).

If you can get one of the drives recognized again, you could at least try using EASEUS Partition Master to partition it (without the jumper and without formating any partition created, since XP Disk Management won't give you the latter option) into at least two partitions under XP, then check the partition start- and end-points with EPM to verify that they fall on traditional boundaries (just post them here if you don't know how to interpret them), then run the WD alignment utility on the disk, and finally use EPM again to report what the start- and end-points of the partitions had changed to to help illuminate just what the utility may be doing and how close it comes to having created the partitions under Win7.

Seagate then added that 'if it didn't have smart align and had over 2TB, you would probably need a special formatting software or post format alignment software'... which I find off topic since size over 2TB is completely different topic from Advanced Format topic

I'm afraid that you're wrong once again, since the only way to make MBR-style partitioning work on drives larger than 2 TB is to use sectors larger than 512 bytes (one of the other reasons for moving to Advanced Format disks which I actually did mention earlier in the material which you found confusing).
 
I take no offense from unnecessary personal attacks and all I am looking for is useful information, I did not know that no other hardware was needed to use drives over 2TB using Seagate SmartAllign technology, is BIOS update required? If it applies to WD Advanced Format technology drives, does that mean that a 3TB drive with a pin could be used on Windows XP in the same way a 2TB could - I guess I thought PCI cards were required to use those or an entirely new BIOS....

Both my WDs are enroute to newegg as one of the motors died and the other drive would not be detected inside Windows 7 w/o a pin or while using that partitioning software or WD software. It would hang for a long time in BIOS but would ultimately show up in BIOS then hang forever at Windows boot screen logo etc. I never successfully formatted or quick formatted the drive. I think the relevant question would be - could this be caused by using the pin - then interrupting Windows XP format mid-way? Probably not but I guess I will "initialize" :) the drive w/o a pin in Windows 7 next time then reboot with a pin into Windows XP, then nuke the partition and make a new volume in Windows XP and format there.

I suppose your advice would be that it's unnecessary and that I should just not use the pin and create a single partition inside Windows 7 for use by both OS - but I am worried that we may not be 100% clear as to what exactly is going on when pin and/or WD software is being used although you seem to be certain that you do.



I have actually tested the lower RPM Seagates and found them to be extremely fast but using a low capacity SSD for OS is really the way to go as the programs open instantaneously on SSDs whereas they take noticeably longer on any mechanical drive but either way I still think that the 2TB drives will be mostly used for single partition storage by people at overclockers.

I would never abandon WinXP for 64-Bit Win7 as the only reason to use 64-Bit is to actually need and use more than 4GB of RAM and other than folding machines and perhaps professional Photoshop users - not many people do. Dual booting is the way to avoid headaches in particular because Windows 7 32-Bit and 64-Bit (other than on Desktop) cannot move folders or files and group them together on different parts of the screen - this may not be important for some - but it is crucial to other people's work. This is possible in Windows XP but not in Windows 7.

I also cannot check an external hard drive for errors in Windows 7 and still use it for work due to Windows 7 running out of memory if you do so (known Windows 7 bug - not fixed to this day, which incredibly some people claim this is by design.) Not to mention Windows 7 Search engine is unfriendly if not broken: http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616264


Regarding FAT: It is relevant if someone wishes to use this drive on Windows 9x/Me. Windows XP would format it NTFS, you can't format FAT on Windows XP itself w/o using other software even if Windows XP itself is installed on FAT32. Microsoft disabled FAT32 hard drive formatting in Windows XP.


Samsung was referring to Spinpoint F4 HD204UI - they did not know what they were talking about - their customer service is inadequate, what is the name of Samsung Advanced Format technology if not Advanced Areal Density?



Finally - I seem to recall reading that there are significant performance issues when using incorrectly set up Advanced Format drives under both Windows 7 and Windows XP. Are you saying you disagree and that they are minor, hardly noticeable issues? Can all cases be really characterized as "minor degradation in small-random-write performance."? This topic is important because of my understanding that significant performance issues are involved here.


Like I said I was unable to format either of the two drives, newegg will be receiving them back on Friday, I hope they ship new ones back. Can any actual tests regarding performance be run if I partition and format the drive in Windows 7 vs. doing the same under Windows XP, with or w/o pin? Or is this just an issue that is visible by using partition software like the screenshot I posted earlier?




 
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After reading this, I think I have a headache. Guys, you need to quit sniping at each other or just plain stop posting in response to each other.

c6, - bill is trying to explain things. I completely agree it's not exactly easy to wade through, but things like the underlined part of this sentence: "When people are (or think they are) proficient on certain subjects..." are unnecessary and do not help.

- bill, on the same token, items such as "Dear me - are you still babbling away..." and a whole lot of this one: "Ah - so you like to pick and choose between vendor statements which seem to agree with your preconceptions (which you elect to present as gospel) and those which do not (which you cheerfully dismiss as incompetent). Hardly surprising. It would be better to be able to evaluate such statements from a more enlightened perspective, but you seem implacably resistant to developing one." are also rude.

In conclusion, you're both taking pot shots at each other, and it needs to stop, lest anyone who takes the time to read the extremely lengthy texts of your posts get a headache like I just did.

-hokie
 
I did not know that no other hardware was needed to use drives over 2TB using Seagate SmartAllign technology

I'm not sure where you think you read that - certainly not in anything I've said. The fact that 2TB is the maximum disk size that traditional MBR-style partitioning can support using (or emulating) 512-byte sectors in no way implies that using larger sectors (NOT emulated as 512-byte sectors) to allow mapping larger disks into the traditional MBR partitioning format is compatible with other current hardware and software.

The system BIOS comes into play dealing with the disk only 1) when attempting to boot the system from it (it reads in the first sector on the drive to execute the boot code which it contains, and if that sector dumps more than 512 bytes into RAM it's possible (though probably unlikely) that it might overwrite something important if you're using a BIOS that does not allow for the fact that 'reading the first sector' might bring in as much as 4096 bytes) and 2) when an operating system uses BIOS functions to aid it in reading the disk (most OSs now don't, though the last versions of DOS in Win9x & WinMe did even though Win9x and WinMe themselves did not after being loaded from the initial DOS environment).

And Seagate's 'SmartAlign technology' on the disk (which is likely more marketing than actual technology, save for the read/modify/write 512-byte-sector emulation capabilities that it shares with all other Advanced Format disks) has no impact on the above statements.

So the only ways that a drive larger than 2 TB can be used in a traditional MBR partitioning environment are either 1) to make it look like a drive no larger than 2 TB with 512-byte sectors on it (perhaps using a jumper to limit the apparent size and enable 512-byte-sector emulation - the latter being unnecessary in the current Advanced Format drives that ALWAYS emulate 512-byte sectors) or 2) make the larger sectors visible externally (NTFS and Windows have actually been able to deal with drives using larger sectors since Windows NT, though through at least XP - don't know about Vista and Win7 - they weren't able to boot from them so they could only be used as storage drives).

This is one of the reasons the GPT partitioning alternative was created, since it can support larger drives even if they still use or emulate 512-byte sectors. Microsoft apparently supports booting from GPT drives only in its 64-bit versions of Windows (normally not including XP) and only in systems that incorporate the 'EFI' mechanism in place of the traditional BIOS; even Windows data-only GPT support is limited to Win7, Vista, and 64-bit XP (though where supported requires only GPT support, not EFI firmware).

Windows XP would format it NTFS, you can't format FAT on Windows XP itself w/o using other software even if Windows XP itself is installed on FAT32. Microsoft disabled FAT32 hard drive formatting in Windows XP.

Where on earth did you come up with that misconception? Go into XP Disk Management, choose an empty location on your disk to create either a primary or a logical partition, and you'll be offered the choice of NTFS or FAT32 as its format.

Edit: Hmmm. ISTR that you'll only be offered that choice if the partition is no larger than 32 GB - an artificial limitation that XP arbitrarily imposed, though it will cheerfully deal with far larger FAT32 partitions created by others. Perhaps that's where your idea that XP had 'disabled' FAT32 formating came from.

End Edit.

what is the name of Samsung Advanced Format technology if not Advanced Areal Density?

AFT (which I suspect stands for 'advanced format technology', though that phrase didn't come up in a Samsung site search). That's what they specify for the sector size on the F4 HD204UI, in contrast to the F4 HD322GJ (also an "advanced areal density" disk) which forthrightly states "512 bytes".

Finally - I seem to recall reading that there are significant performance issues when using incorrectly set up Advanced Format drives under both Windows 7 and Windows XP.

The only normal way to set up an Advanced Format drive 'incorrectly' under Win7 is to partition it somewhere else using a traditional partitioning mechanism (or, in the case of the WD drive, use the jumper and then partition it using Win7).

Are you saying you disagree and that they are minor, hardly noticeable issues?

Generally, yes.

Can all cases be really characterized as "minor degradation in small-random-write performance."?

My actual phrase was "a USUALLY (emphasis added) minor degradation in small-random-write performance", but it could have been worded more carefully. Small random writes are usually a relatively minor portion of the total workload and therefore even a significant degradation in the performance of small random writes won't necessarily produce a noticeable performance impact overall. And only the smallest (4 KB) writes experience the worst impact (which can reduce the performance of the write by around 50% on average).

So while it's possible to create a workload that would perform only about half as fast on a misaligned Advanced Format disk as it would if the disk were properly aligned, you'd have to craft it specially to achieve that: in most situations the overall impact should be relatively unnoticeable, and often not noticeable at all.

This topic is important because of my understanding that significant performance issues are involved here.

Come up with an alleged example and I'll comment on it if there's sufficient detail about the workload to make that possible.

Can any actual tests regarding performance be run if I partition and format the drive in Windows 7 vs. doing the same under Windows XP, with or w/o pin?

There are a lot of available performance test suites that you could try if you're so inclined which purport to offer workloads that have some real-world relevance. Many concentrate on specific areas (e.g., running a graphics-intensive suite wouldn't likely provide much insight into disk performance), so putting some time into finding one that claims to offer real-world disk workloads (rather than one designed to measure specific aspects of disk performance like access time) would be useful.

Or is this just an issue that is visible by using partition software like the screenshot I posted earlier?

What that would help clarify is what the WD alignment utility is doing to achieve its goals (which in turn would help suggest how well it might be likely to play with other partitioning software, both traditional and new).
 
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hokiealumnus, I apologize.

This is why I thought they disabled it - before you make any partitions, there is only one option next to File System in Windows XP: NTFS


P.S. That was a good post - bill.
 

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This is why I thought they disabled it - before you make any partitions, there is only one option next to File System in Windows XP: NTFS

Either you did not click on the small arrow to the right of 'NTFS' to see the drop-down selection list, or you specified a partition size larger than 32 GB (the arbitrary FAT32 formating limit on Win2K and XP, though both can process much larger FAT 32 partitions formated by other means). The same limit applies during the 2K/XP installation process when creating a partition.
 
Yes, there is a 32GB limit about which I didn't know.

32769 MB partition size and higher gives you only the NTFS option.
32768 MB and lower size also offers FAT32.
 
Artificial 32GB limit on FAT32 for W2k/XP. If I recall correctly, I was able to exceed that even in W98SE.
 
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