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Lapping with 10 micon paper

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I rather meant styrodur and balsa as they're harder and more resistant. Styrofoam might do its job, but I'da rather go with one of those 2.
 
Pretty much any dense foam will do; I prefer a thick open cell instead of a closed cell foam like styrofoam. Styrofoam isn't very durable, and the individual cells may break of and stay between your CPU pins. Open celled foam is generally easier to get the pins into.
 
insulglass said:
Looks very nice my friend. Kudos for sticking with it... most people do not invest in the time required to produce such a beautiful finish.

Can I assume that BOTH your heat sink and CPU have similar finishes?

Dave
[email protected]
www.easypckits.com
Click to expand...

my waterblock is already machine lapped to 2000grit or some, and it was connected to the hoses and junk - i was itching to lap it as well, but didn't feel motivated to drain the system to lap the block at the moment

btw - you'll have an order for a couple of your kits soon (i did this lapping with a smaller frozencpu.com kit that i got a couple moths ago)
 
Sneaky said:
my waterblock is already machine lapped to 2000grit or some, and it was connected to the hoses and junk - i was itching to lap it as well, but didn't feel motivated to drain the system to lap the block at the moment

btw - you'll have an order for a couple of your kits soon (i did this lapping with a smaller frozencpu.com kit that i got a couple moths ago)
Click to expand...

Thank you - that's very kind! I originally started making the kits in 2002, and OCForums has been very good to me. There are now a couple of competitors out there, but I feel that competition is a form of flattery. I will try to give you the best value for your dollar as possible. If you make a purchase of more than one kit, I have a new bundle with the new ArctiClean that is pretty attractive, but I make special bundles and kits all the time. Just let me know exactly what you need.

If I can interject for a moment... whenever you buy supplies, make sure you check the total shipped price. I ship via Priority MAil at cost, so it gets there quickly and cheaply. In my periodic survey of competitors, one company sells a kit that is more expensive by several dollars and they then wanted to ship via UPS for another $10 for ground service.

Am I in business to make money? Of course, I can't afford to LOSE on my sales. However, as many of you already know, in real life, I am an electrical project engineer at a power plant. The money I make in lapping kit sales is truly inconsequential compared to my normal income - all that to say... I really do this because of the overclocking community and the friends I have made. I have fun helping people out as they are new to lapping and overclocking. If I can make a little pocket money to buy that new motherboard along the way, so much the better. :)

I don't have a fancy website, it is simple and functional. I do not and will not carry a thousand products for sale - I have a core business that I focus on, and by doing so, I try to provide the absolute lowest cost and best service. I ALWAYS try to provide a level of service and products more than expected.

Once again, thanks Sneaky - and everyone else on OCFurums!

Dave
[email protected]
www.easypckits.com
 
Sorry, but that plastic backed stuff is marginal at best IMO. Dave gave me
one of those kits to try out. And he wasn't happy with my opinions apparently
because he seemed to ignore me afterwards. ... fair enough. :)

Anyway ....... I have tried it a few times since and the abrasive on that
plastic stuff isn't attached to the backing very well from what I've seen.
Best to use the good old standard - 3M paper. It's been working fine in
the machining industry for many decades. :D

You can get a very shiny surface with 2,000 grit provided you take your time
to clean everything often, and know what you are doing.

Here's an oldie but goodie ......

Susquehannock-DUBBLE3.JPG


Tried a few times to get a finish like above with the plastic stuff, it kept snowballing as
the abrasive particles came away from the backing. :(

And I agree that anything smoother than an 800 grit finish is largely a waste of time.
Took the above finish back to fresh 800 grit. Got the same temps. Lapped
it back to a mirror again, same temps. (yes, was remounted a few times with each finish)

IMhO ... the most important thing is to have a FLAT and consistant surface.
Many times when you get a new heatsink the bottom is slightly dished from
the milling process. And can even have deep cutter marks too.

As for the CPU die being made to "millionths of an inch tolerances" ... that
is obviously true for the traces. But what about the external surfaces?
Even if they were held to microscopic tolerences that doesn't really make a
difference when the surface finish itself is so uneven.

Here is an extreme close-up of that little square on the AthlonXP core as an example :

Corepic2.jpg


The same likely goes for the heat spreaders as well. Things are not near as
smooth under extreme magnification.

You can lapp your heatsink smooth 'till you're blue in the face. If the core
and/or heatspreader isn't at least as smooth, and all your microscopic
peaks & valleys are not perfectly lined up, you are wasting your time beyond a
certain point. That's where the TIM paste come in.

As always ... JMhO. :)
 
Last edited:
Susquehannock said:
Sorry, but that plastic backed stuff is marginal at best IMO. Dave gave me
one of those kits to try out. And he wasn't happy with my opinions apparently
because he just ignored me afterwards.
The abrasive on that plastic stuff isn't attached to the backing very well
from what I've seen. Best to use the good old standard - 3M paper.
It's been working fine in the machining industry for decades. :D

You can get a very shiny surface with 2,000 grit provided you take your time
to clean everything often, and know what you are doing.

Susquehannock-DUBBLE3.JPG


Tried to get a finish like above with the plastic stuff, it kept snowballing as
the abrasive particles came away from the backing. :(

And I agree that anything smoother than an 800 grit finish is a waste of time.
Took the above finish back to fresh 800 grit. Got the same temps. Lapped
it back to a mirror again, same temps. Even tried remounting the sink, same temps.
The important thing is to have a FLAT and consistant surface.
Many times when you get a new heatsink the bottom is slightly dished from
the milling process. And can even have deep cutter marks too.

As always ... JMhO. :)
Click to expand...

Susquehannock, I am not sure what you mean. I did provide you with a premium kit at no charge; I generally provide a "scholarship" or two each month. A bit of research for my posts seem to indicate that you received the kit in September of 2003. I seem to recall a couple of PM's regarding delivery of the kit, but my memory isn't good enough to remember anything else. I do not recall ever having received any extensive emails with a description of your operational problems while lapping with the premium paper; I certianly do not see an extensive discussion in the continuation of the thread. If you had sent an email, I am sure that I would have responded - I try and keep a very close eye on emails from customers, though there is no possible way for me to address each and every forum post. PM's can be difficult for me as well, your feedback would have most likely been in that arena. I apologize if you gave specific suggestions and feedback, and if I failed to address them.

The situation you described is most commonly attributed to not using enough water. One simply cannot get enough water in use while lapping. A lack of lubrication will cause premature wear and excessive heating, which can delaminate the bond between the backing film and the abrasive. Additionally, the abrasive can be worn off prematurely if the edge of your heat sink is very sharp. This condition is also addressed in the kit instructions.

The manufacturer's tests, as well as my own extensive experience, indicates to me that the premium paper is superior and will last longer if taken care of. I am sorry that you did not apparently have a positive experience. Out of appx 700 kits sold last year, I did not personally or directly receive negative feedback from a single paying customer. In fact, I am proud of the 100% positive feedback to date both via Heatware and in forums. If you had paid for the kit, I would have gladly refunded your costs or replaced the kit to your satisfaction.

Susquehannock, I wish you the best of luck in your overclocking endeavours.

Dave
[email protected]
 
Hey Dave ... please don't get the idea I have any negative feelings. It was great of
you to provide a kit for me to try free of charge. No doubt about it.
It's just that I got the impression you weren't too happy with my opinions that's all.
Then again, looking back it's very possible you got busy and didn't have time to
respond is all.

The two problems I had were - snowballing and the pieces were too small (quarter sheets)
For the record, I am still certain your kits are the best option for most people here who
don't have the time or resources to go and buy the respective grits needed to get an
optimum lapp job. Particularly since you include the glass as well.
The kits are just not the best option for me, that's all.

Why did I have problems? .. not sure.
All I can say is I used more than enough water. I am avid about cleaning everything off
between every few passes across the abrasive to remove any random particles. And about
not applying much pressure at all in the final stages ... just the weight of the
sink itself is all the pressure that's applied. No way to get a perfect mirror otherwise IMO.
Like I said, I have tried other plastic backed sheets since with similar results.
They do work well, for a short time. Just don't seem to me to be as durable
as the classic 3M stuff I've been using for years & years. But that's just me.

Again, sorry if I came across the wrong way above ... wish you the best of luck as well. :)
 
no, but... the actual processor was in mirrored writing, and the heatsink was normal.... erm...
 
SolidxSnake said:
no, but... the actual processor was in mirrored writing, and the heatsink was normal.... erm...
Click to expand...

You have to think like a dyslexic - he he ;)
Seriously, everyone was complaining about not being able to read the steppings
backwards. It's a "0001" chip afterall.
You are the first to complain since I changed it ... can't please everyone I guess.
 
okay, so you mirrored the picture???

i thought that was a plain photo and that you had some WIERD processor =P
 
I think this kit looks great and looks like a very good value. My question is, that in all this talk I havent seen where anyone has ruined a CPU. Is that something that happens? I must say as someone who's new to all this, sanding the CPU sounds a bit scary. But then again the wife thought I was nuts when she saw me taking the drill and dremel to the new case I'd purchased.
 
Ol'Dusty said:
I think this kit looks great and looks like a very good value. My question is, that in all this talk I havent seen where anyone has ruined a CPU. Is that something that happens? I must say as someone who's new to all this, sanding the CPU sounds a bit scary. But then again the wife thought I was nuts when she saw me taking the drill and dremel to the new case I'd purchased.
Click to expand...

CPU polishing is yet another step that can mean more efficient thermal transfer. It would be hard to damage a CPU that has an integrated heat shield. Other CPUs, such as an AMD Barton with exposed CPU die, would be much trickier. Either way, be sure to recognize that you will void your warranty. If you decide to lap your CPU die directly, you need to lap "backwards", that is, start with the finest grits and see the general shape. This is an area where you do NOT want to remove much at all.

OCForum member Liquid3D has done extensive research on CPU lapping and heat shield removal where appropriate. He posts frequently on OCForums as well as writing for Madshrimps. There are others, obviously, that a quick forum search will turn up.

Dave
[email protected]
www.easypckits.com
 
Susquehannock said:
Hey Dave ... please don't get the idea I have any negative feelings. It was great of
you to provide a kit for me to try free of charge. No doubt about it.
It's just that I got the impression you weren't too happy with my opinions that's all.
Then again, looking back it's very possible you got busy and didn't have time to
respond is all.

The two problems I had were - snowballing and the pieces were too small (quarter sheets)
For the record, I am still certain your kits are the best option for most people here who
don't have the time or resources to go and buy the respective grits needed to get an
optimum lapp job. Particularly since you include the glass as well.
The kits are just not the best option for me, that's all.

Why did I have problems? .. not sure.
All I can say is I used more than enough water. I am avid about cleaning everything off
between every few passes across the abrasive to remove any random particles. And about
not applying much pressure at all in the final stages ... just the weight of the
sink itself is all the pressure that's applied. No way to get a perfect mirror otherwise IMO.
Like I said, I have tried other plastic backed sheets since with similar results.
They do work well, for a short time. Just don't seem to me to be as durable
as the classic 3M stuff I've been using for years & years. But that's just me.

Again, sorry if I came across the wrong way above ... wish you the best of luck as well. :)
Click to expand...

Nooo.... I'm always looking for feedback. I must have simply let your response slip through the crack somehow. :)

Dave
[email protected]
www.easypckits.com
 
Perhaps I was misunderstood, as I agree with most of your points completely. The IceStorm is designed specifically for a videocard, and based on evaluating a half dozen modern graphics cards for precision, it was found that because of the inconsistancy soldering a BGA package to a PCB, there are height variations of several thousands of an inch (which in any other context doesn't seem like a lot). The components themselves are true (especially true with any flip chip GPU/CPU) and the RAM modules are quite consistant as well. So, based on the way videocards are manufactured, I feel my statements are justified, and testing backs them up.
However, when it comes to CPU's which are mounted in more precise socket package arrangements, I agree that any improvement in the finish and flatness of a heatsink (up until ~1200grit) will yield better performance...this is assuming you have either lapped or removed the imperfect heatspreaders. Any slack will be picked up by a quality thermal compound like Arctic Silver.

Thanks for the input though. :thup:

insulglass said:
I wholeheartedly disagree, and here's why.

CPU dies are manufactured to millionths of an inch tolerances, even the outer surfaces. I'll grant that the HEAT SHIELD may convex or concave, but CPU surfaces are generally as flat as you can lap a heat sink. That's why you can potentially lap CPU's with a heat shield for even better thermal performance (but that's a topic for Liquid3D and Silversinksam!). :)
Click to expand...
*Partial Quote, please refer to insulglass's entire post for complete explanation* -consumer9000
 
I went to Auto Zone today and the finest sand paper they normaly carry is 2000 grt. The Hardware store is'nt even close. There finest was 320 grt.
 
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