LN2 Evaporator Design and Reference Links

[nzaneb]

I don't think the MOGster would be ok with a direct copy of anything, lol. Utilizing another's design would be for reference/comparative purposes only, there's a wealth of knowledge built into the pots on the market today... might as well capitalize on it

 

[I.M.O.G.]

Yup, mostly I'm doing it to see how my DIY turns out, and for making information about my pot design choices more public and useful for others interested in going the DIY route. I'm not looking to operate in a vacuum - other people have learned things and its good to have an awareness of that.

But cloning an existing design wouldn't gain us anything, and I'd prefer to pay someone for their product rather than duplicating it. Looking at what smart people have done should get me in the ballpark to see how different revisions of my own design are better or worse. Basically, I'm less concerned with how good or bad the pot is starting out, and much more interested in how much better or worse it is if I change the design, and trying to explain to others why I think its better or worse so they have freely available experience to go off.

I'm hoping to write a couple articles about the experience, and make some things available to give people a jump start on the basics for DIY. I can look all around but I'm pretty much left making inferences or compiling information from scattered info I can dig up from different places. For example, right now it'd be great to have answers on the following basics:

1. What dimensions are required for the hold down bracket on popular current platforms? (I'll need to reference the specs for the various sockets)
2. Range of ballpark specs for width, height, depth, mass that are reasonable if designing your own pot?
3. Relative impact of changes in mass or surface area to the behavior of the pot?
4. In light of how good or bad the pot is, why were the design decisions made, and how do they effect stability/responsiveness?

I'd like to read information about that stuff in one place, but I haven't found a good compilation of data or information like that. I used to love reading about custom milled water blocks that people published here, and it'd be good to see more DIY stuff being shared here.

 

[dejo]

I fully agree with taking what is best in every design and putting it to use, would be better for all extreme clockers. Just making sure that everyone understands the ramifications of a copy of anything. I know you are a standup guy Matt, and respect you for that, just want to make sure we dont create and bad vibes over this project. I also realize thats was never your intentions. Just wanted to post to others that may not have seen what I am making obvious.

Very nice thoughts here too. keep them coming.

One other thought from me. If you come to the conclusion that we need more surface area, I would say make sure there is a taper on the bottom of the pot to give clearance for the intel boards that have larger caps and chokes close to the cpu socket, and this would alleviate the issues with the post like the koolance v2 not wanting to mount properly. Vince has done this with the F1EE, as it has a nice taper on it, and most likely for that very reason. When designing something like this there are so many things to consider, that some get lost in the wind. and then is easy to have something that is nice but just has some issues that are hard to overcome.

 

[Bobnova]

I have yet to see a new pot made that doesn't have people on XS screaming about how their ideas were stolen.
Drill more then one hole and you're stealing vinces ideas.
Thread the holes and you're stealing someone elses.
Step the sides and you're stealing something.
Put a center post and you're stealing.
Remove the center post and you're stealing.


I don't think it's actually possible to make a new pot without causing drama, and as such I don't think that should be a large consideration.

 

[xoke]

I have yet to see a new pot made that doesn't have people on XS screaming about how their ideas were stolen.
Drill more then one hole and you're stealing vinces ideas.
Thread the holes and you're stealing someone elses.
Step the sides and you're stealing something.
Put a center post and you're stealing.
Remove the center post and you're stealing.


I don't think it's actually possible to make a new pot without causing drama, and as such I don't think that should be a large consideration.

Yup. How to file a patent, see below, lol. No patent...no theft.

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/howtopat.htm

 

[I.M.O.G.]

I think Jonnie's point is a good one and I had skimmed over that - it could be interpreted in a way that ruffles some feathers, and we should try to avoid it and be aware of it. But our aim is a worthwhile one, acceptable risks I think.

And thanks... now I have a title for the article - "Steal This Pot!"

 

[dejo]

I know that sometimes I get on rampages, but try to keep it to a minimum, and am usually pretty non aggressive. But I do like to try and keep the forum at the top of my thoughts. I just would hate to see very many people not wanting to make this their home over some political crap.

but as stated, there is nothing wrong with taking the best of whats out there and working with that as a start and making a better mousetrap. And I think if Matt did come up with a superior product that many would be interested in it as the extreme crowd just wants everything. If you could give them everything right now, they would be pleased and content. And then others would be working with what you came up with.

 

[I.M.O.G.]

Heh, I really doubt any revision of this will be better. I'm shooting for good enough. But I do hope it can address the easy questions for those thinking about building their own. If you want to build a faster car and you are starting from scratch, your time would be a lot more well spent if you have a basic layout for the body and extraneous items to start from, then you can just focus on tweaking the motor to fit your target cost/performance and wasting less time worrying about stupid stuff like designing hinges for the doors.

 

[nzaneb]

775 is 72mm square (center to center)
1366 is 80mm square (center to center)

4mm holes

I don't have an 1156 board sitting here

 

[I.M.O.G.]

Thank you, every detail like that is the stuff it's nice to not have to dig up. Added it to first post.

 

[Khemikal]

Yeah I was going to post what BobN said, but got caught up in a 'meeting' around the conference table. There just isn't that much you can do to a piece/block of metal when making it a container that hasn't already been done. I say as long as you aren't completely copying someone's complete design and you spend the time doing the legwork you should be good. There just aren't that many non-radical ideas you can do that will separate one container from another now that so many have been made.

 

[splat]

i'm reinstalling solidworks now. this really makes me want to run some FEA to see what really works

 

[I.M.O.G.]

FEA would be great.

What is it?

Edit:

SolidWorks® Simulation Premium brings highly-advanced finite element analysis (FEA) functions to designers and engineers at a fraction of high-end FEA software costs, and with none of the complexity.

 

[nzaneb]

i'm reinstalling solidworks now. this really makes me want to run some FEA to see what really works

I love solidworks. The analysis tools are phenomenal. Unfortunately my workplace will not stray from Autodesk... so Inventor it is.

 

[splat]

yeah i'm a autocad monkey, but 2d only now. learned pro/e and mechanica in school and loved it.

 

[dylskee]

Yeah, sorry, I guess I had a typo and wasn't too clear. For a one-off part, they can work from anything (dimensioned PDF, napkin sketch, etc...) 3dsmax is fine for many things, it could even provide you with a dimensioned isometric drawing, which is very helpful for the mill operator. CAD/CAM software is a sure fire way to get EXACTLY what you submit to them, they drop the file in and do nothing. The software optimizes the code for passes, speed, and tooling to produce the exact part that was submitted, in the fastest possible time. I guess I was simply trying to say that there is less operator interaction, less labor, less room for error if provided with the correct model file format. However, this all depends on the whether or not the company even uses CAD/CAM and the program that they use. I guess it could be possible, that 3dsMax transferable into some software. Just not any that I know of. It would be a good question for the shop you send it to.
Ask if they utilize a CAD/CAM software, would it help to provide a model in that format, and if so, what file format. Most companies don't require it, because they actually want work, and don't want to exclude people that do not have access to $5000+ modeling software. If you were going to actually hire someone to make the part for you (not your brother-in-law ) I would suspect significant cost savings by providing a plug-n-play model, that requires nothing on their part. Other than tooling changes.

I can measure the Heavy and Speed bases from the Gemini (when it gets back from the party), if you want to compare to it.

That's exactly right! We have a lot of customers that supply us with PDF drawings and I create a solid model from that and depending on the complexity of the part that can take time. One of our customers is a supplier of high performance after market and race parts for BMW and he creates all the models in Solid Works and emails them to me. Like nzaneb stated, I just drag the model into my software and I can instantly start cutting chips. Don't be confused though, I have to carefully select the proper methods and tool paths to get the job done well, software doesn't make you a good machinist!

As far as the design you have right now I have to say that would be a little expensive to machine. Very time consuming milling those steps 6" deep in copper. Most people associate copper as being a soft material and easy to cut but it is very gummy and can be a chore when deep pocket milling is involved. I think that's why you see a lot of your consumer pots are made in two pieces or out of round stock, a lot easier to machine and that = cheaper. Looks like a fun project though and I am subscribed as of now! When you come up with a design if you create a dimension sheet I can model it for you and export it to a file format that will be accepted in any CAM software.

 

[I.M.O.G.]

I'm actually hoping chance can get me the PDF and stuff tonight, I'm just waiting on something I can send over to get feedback/quotes.

What should the dimension sheet look like? If its not much trouble for you to whip something up, I can try to list everything out for you.

dimensions:

- 150mm height
- 50mm thick base
- 4 25mm deep centered holes, sloped or stepped to the walls funneling the LN2 towards the holes (later, holes could be deepened or multiplied out towards the walls)
- hold down bracket - designed to accommodate AMD/Intel
- backplate not needed, going to follow 3oh6's approach, with an insulated wood mounting that acts as the backplate
- 60mm square (has to be less than ~65mm I think, as thats safely within the smallest socket mounting spacing I have looked up so far, need to confirm mounting hole spacing on others which I haven't looked up yet)
- 6mm walls
- angled from walls to base (clearance for socket area capacitors), not sure what the base area should be, or how tall the angle should be

 

[ChanceCoats123]

I might be able to get it done tonight. I'll be honest with you. I don't know what you've changed from my latest rendering to your current desires (post #117). If you could summarize what has changed in the design, then I could get going.

Ps. There is not print option in 3dsMax, unless you are printing a rendered frame (which isn't quite as helpful as one would imagine). It would more than likely be the best to find the correct file format of your mill worker, and then let me know. You've got the list of possible files, so I can do any of those. If those aren't possible, maybe someone with autocad could transfer the file from me (3ds -> .dwf) and then print to the PDF for you.

 

[I.M.O.G.]

Nothing changed, so thats no problem. I'm waiting for a response on the preferred file format, if there is one other than pdf.

 

[nzaneb]

Got my pot back from the party today. If you would like numbers from them for reference IMOG, just let me know and I can PM you the specifics.