Looking for a bit of advice on a first build and price.

[JS17]

Hello all, first post here. I commonly frequent some other forums, but it seems like the watercooling resources on this forum are really great. I've read through all the stickies and I feel like I've put together a pretty good build, but I'm looking to see if anyone has some advice on what I've put together, and perhaps some advice on anything I could do to make it a little less expensive. Right now it's tallied to be $467, which is a little bit higher than I originally wanted.

My goals for the setup:
1) Cool an overclocked 2600K, 4.8ghz or so.
2) Cool an overclocked GTX670(Or potentially a 7950).
3) Quiet under idle/load (<1000rpm fans)
3) <$500 shipped, ideally ~$400.

Here is what I've put together so far.
(I own 120mm fans, and a fan controller)

Pump: MCP35X $99 This seems to be commonly regarded as the *best* (if you can say something so definitive) pump. Looks like it would be able to handle any future upgrades, and being able to control it via software is rather nice. (Can tell if it fails too).

CPU: XSPC Raystorm $50 This block seems to be a nice mix of high performance/low restriction/relatively low cost.

GPU: XSPC Razor GTX680 $90 I cannot find much information about this block, but looking at the reviews for previous generations it seems to be about average, not the best, not the worst, but it has the advantage of being the cheapest full cover block.

Res: XSPC Dual 5.25 bay: $48 Seems to be a fairly generic bay res. I'm somewhat leaning towards a bay res as my case has no windows, so it would be nice to be able to see the water level without removing the side. I didn't go for a pump/bayres combo as it seems that this can lead to being a nosier setup from a not isolated pump.

Rad: XSPC RX480 $120 Definitely the priciest part of my build. But with my goal of low noise, this seems to be a great rad for low speed fans.

Extra Barbs: $8 For the items that don't come with barbs.

Tubing: ClearFlex 60 1/2ID 3/4OD 12ft $17 Seems to fit the bill and is cheaper than most tubing, my case is pretty large so I can handle some larger bends if this isn't the most flexible tubing.

Kill Coil: $7

Lian Li Case wheels: $28 Pretty needed as I want to bottom mount my rad, and these will allow my case to have some space under it.


After looking at this, any ideas of how to make it a little cheaper while still being effective? I have some of my own thoughts here.

1) Use a vario D5 (Koolance version with tach sensor). ~$77. This would save me $23 or so. I'd still be able to manually control the pump speed, and I could sense the rpm to make some safety layer. I'd lose PWM, and some pump head pressure.

2) Use a cheaper rad! like the XSPC EX480 or EX420. ~$75. This would save me $45, which is noticeable, but it seems these thinner rads need higher rpm fans, resulting in more noise. I have some 120mm yate loons, but if I went with the 420, I'd have to buy some 140 yate loons for $20 or so, so I'd save a little less with the 420.

3) Axe the bay res as they seem to be a little bit overpriced (imo), get the swiftech mcp35x res $30, or the micro res if I got the D5. This could save me $18, but I would not be able to see my water level without removing the side. But it would be easier to fill up etc.

Thanks for any help you can give.

 

[musicfan]

You can see if it is any less expensive at www.jab-tech.com or sidewindercomputers. Here is the 35x for $80.

If you want to go slow fan rpm and can fit a 120.4, the XSPC RX is a good all-around rad. You can check out the testing at http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/04/14/360-radiator-shootout-summary/. The Alphacool Nexxxos look good at low RPM but I have not priced them.

I had a bay res and got rid of it because it was harder to fill the pump and bleed the air than the Swiftech mcres I use so I endorse your solution #3. You can usually shine a flashlight through bay or window or top to see the reservoir water.

Read more at martin's and skinnee labs about parts. Keep asking questions. Look at shipping costs carefully too. Hope that helps make budget. Good luck.

add: just for fun looked for the alpha-cool xt45 120.4 (480) full copper. Here it is for $100. So that is a little less than the XSPC RX and thinner too in case you want to push/pull. Are you getting any closer to budget?

 

[JS17]

Yeah, good point about shopping around, should be able to shave some money off the top. Looking around, that Alphacool does seem to be pretty comparable and less expensive to boot, so I'll probably head in that direction, thanks for the pointer.

I noticed Alphacool has an XT420, but alas so far I haven't been able to find a place that sells it, but I haven't looked too far yet.

I'll take your advice on the res too, saving some money for something more effective seems nice. I have a few vented covers for my cd drive bays, so I can always shine a light through there as you said and see. And admittedly, taking the side of my case takes like 10-15 seconds, so that's not too bad

I won't have a good chance to shop around more until tomorrow, but I'll be able to say how much closer I am tomorrow.

My new Samsung 830 256gb comes tomorrow, so that's also exciting, I'll resist the distraction and think about what video card and what watercooling parts to buy.

 

[musicfan]

Getting that Samsung 830 is very exciting so take your time on the water-cooling. Here are a two things to consider soon.

Have you estimated your heat load that you seek to water-cool?

When you said "idle/load", did you mean you want your system silent (1000 rpm max fans) even under full load, like folding or Prime 95/Furmark?

 

[Supertrucker]

the swiftech qp 120.4 or xspc ex 120.4 would shave ~50$ off your build cost, and with quiet fans, you are talking a degree or two higher temps than the much more expensive rads. I run a swifty 120.4 myself, though my case also had room for a 140.2 so im way over radded. Jabtech tends to have the cheapest mcp35x too, I got mine for 77 there a while back.

 

[JS17]

I'd like the computer to be quiet(near silent, but understanding there are some fans spinning) when the computer is idle, 100% cpu load but little gpu load, and gaming load. If both the cpu and gpu are fully stressed out at the same time as only synthetics tests/folding can do, I could handle having to turn the fans up a bit.

The max heat load should be about ~350Watts, if I calculated it correctly that is.
I'm thinking that in games, this would be about 300Watts being used since the processor will likely be about half utilized.

Here I'm trying to do some napkin math, if I want to dissipate 300Watts on a 480 rad, that's similar to trying to dissipate 300*(360/480), or 225Watts on a 360 rad. Looking over at Martin's Liquid lab's graph on the Alphacool xt45 360 would I be correct in thinking I would need about 1550rpm fans to get the 10 degree delta? So a 480 rad would be okay for somewhat low noise at high performance settings, and be pretty quiet if I sacrificed some temps (via higher delta).

Using the alphacool radiator and jab-tech for the 35x+res, it's down to 440 shipped which is more reasonable than 470 before shipping for sure.

Edit: on Heatload, Looking at Skinneelabs for the RX360 (Similar to the Alphacool), it looks like it can remove 360W at 10C delta at 1000rpm, Which is about 480W scaled up to the 480. This seems rather better than what I saw on my napkin math using Martin's Liquid lab. I'm going to guess it's more accurate/my previous napkin math was wrong as one of the stickies calculated delta this way.

 

[Supertrucker]

Well, with a [email protected], and a 7950 with a pretty heavy overclock, my pc uses about 375 watts average, with some scary high peaks during, say the metro2033 benchmark, of 500 watts, about 75 of those watts will be pump, fans, hdds, fan controller ect, so id say even your 300 watt gaming load might be a bit on the high side with a 670, and thats if you overclock it.

 

[boosteeddc]

i pretty much run a xspc rs360 kit, added a gpu to the loop with an extra 140.1rad and so far so good, should be within your 400$ range? since i mainly game i use the 360rad for the gpu and the 140.1 for the cpu, my oc 7870 idles around 30, but only 40ish on load, but 2600k @ 4.5ghz is at about 34c idle almost 60 full load

 

[musicfan]

I'd like the computer to be quiet(near silent, but understanding there are some fans spinning) when the computer is idle, 100% cpu load but little gpu load, and gaming load. If both the cpu and gpu are fully stressed out at the same time as only synthetics tests/folding can do, I could handle having to turn the fans up a bit.

The max heat load should be about ~350Watts, if I calculated it correctly that is. I'm thinking that in games, this would be about 300Watts being used since the processor will likely be about half utilized.

Here I'm trying to do some napkin math, if I want to dissipate 300Watts on a 480 rad, that's similar to trying to dissipate 300*(360/480), or 225Watts on a 360 rad. Looking over at Martin's Liquid lab's graph on the Alphacool xt45 360 would I be correct in thinking I would need about 1550rpm fans to get the 10 degree delta? So a 480 rad would be okay for somewhat low noise at high performance settings, and be pretty quiet if I sacrificed some temps (via higher delta).

Using the alphacool radiator and jab-tech for the 35x+res, it's down to 440 shipped which is more reasonable than 470 before shipping for sure.

Edit: on Heatload, Looking at Skinneelabs for the RX360 (Similar to the Alphacool), it looks like it can remove 360W at 10C delta at 1000rpm, Which is about 480W scaled up to the 480. This seems rather better than what I saw on my napkin math using Martin's Liquid lab. I'm going to guess it's more accurate/my previous napkin math was wrong as one of the stickies calculated delta this way.

Good compromise on fan speed. Otherwise you may have to over-rad like I do. We both got about the same heat estimate so nice job understanding that. Budget is looking better. You have interpreted Martin's 2012 data correctly.

Martin's 2012 test method on his newer V2 bench changed from his 2008 testing on his V1 bench and from Skinnee's 2009 testing, which was based on the V1. So comparisons cannot be direct - only relative. In 2012, Martin also used standard fans (Titan Kukri) that tested poorly compared the Gentle Typhoon AP-15's Skinnee used and Martin added insulation so the cooling numbers are far different. Skinnee also kept the water flow rate at 1.5 gpm while Martin let flow fluctuate with restriction. Here are a couple of quotes from Martin to explain in his words: from here:

Yeah...I think the retest with higher speed and higher pressure fans will favor the [HW Black Ice] GTX. At some point that double thickness high density will prevail. I just don't think it shows as well with these titans and with this fixed pumping power method. The titans are more average in cfm/rpm where Skinnee was testing with GT15s which makes nearly a 400 rpm change to the rpm scale at the right. In addition this fixed pumping power method more simulates actual gains and losses from restriction. The GTX is higher in restriction than average so it is testing at a slightly lower flow rate than the lower restriction radiators. Skinnee was testing with fixed flow rate which ignores restriction which is how I did it back on my V1 bench, but that gives a slightly unfair advantage to the more restrictive radiators.

and here:

Yeah, I'm still not quite sure what to think of the actual wattage numbers. They generally seem low, but all the rads are being tested the same, so relative performance should be ok. I guess insulating the lines and adding the enclosure to minimize heat losses makes a bigger difference than I thought. I always knew open air rad testing was a problem if there is any changes in air flow in the area of testing. I am probably also getting a touch of restriction from the test bench ports but I did try one test with and without the top cover and got results that were within a few percent so I don't think there is enough restriction to cause any major differences. I think most of it is in the line insulation work and testing all of the points with heat loads that near a 10°C delta.

Considering method change, the newer testing complements the older. With your responses on fans around 1550 rpm, what about Gentle Typhoon AP15's (like Skinnee used) in push only (cheaper) with a fan controller to under-volt when you wish silence? The rad would need to be responsive to medium-low speeds. Will under-volt to quiet/silence and turn up to bench/game work?

Martin's explanations are scattered across threads making it slightly confusing to compare from the old 2008 method to the newer 2012 test method. If you are curious, read all the V1 and V2 bench articles including his archive and read Skinnee's method sections on rad testing. You are doing great. Keep asking questions.

 

[musicfan]

From looking at Martin's data, one more idea on rads is the Alphacool ST 30, which is only 30 mm thick and performs well from 600 to 1400 rpm. At 1800 rpm it drops to the middle (behind the XSPC RX and Alphacool xt45). Here is Martin's summary, his review on the ST 30 120.3 (360), and the $74 price at Performance for the 120.4. Happy shopping.

 

[JS17]

A bit of an update, and a last shot to see if anyone thinks I should swap something. I'm looking to order everything tomorrow and hopefully receive it before the next weekend.

Putting it together, it's about $450 shipped, would rather not increase that, but could always decrease it a little bit. Some of it is from Performance-pcs, some of it from sidewindercomputers.

Will cool an overclocked 2600K, and an MSI 7950 (7970PCB). The goal once again to be fairly quiet and *futureproof* (e.g. not having to replace any part down the road if I decide on crossfire etc, but adding an extra rad wouldn't be the end of the world). This all fits inside of a Lian li PC-201B (similar to the 2100 series).

Here's the list of what I plan to buy, any comments/concerns?

Pump: MCP35X
Res: MCP35X Res
Pump HS: MCP35X HS
CPU: XSPC Raystorm
GPU: Aquacomputer AquagrATIx
Rad: Alphacool XT45 480
Barbs: 4x XSPC 1/2 barbs
Additive: KillCoil
Clamps: Generic Screw Clamps
Tubing: ClearFlex 60 1/2 ID 3/4 OD
Misc: Lian-li casters

A couple of thoughts:
On the rad: I do see the 30mm is compairable at low rpm, where I would be running. Is the extra restriction in it an issue if I ever went crossfire etc? Any thoughts on whether the $20 saved is worth it?
On the GPU: Open to other options. The Koolance [$100] one seems pretty good too, but I'm not sure if I like the look. The Alphacool [$100] is also nicer on price, but doesn't seem to actively cool the VRMs with water.
On the Pump HS: Not sure if needed, if it does make the pump last longer, for $15, that's not a bad deal, any thoughts?

 

[Conumdrum]

Pump HS , not needed, but has nice standoffs you can use to bottom mount the pump and not worry about airflow. For sure don't need the fan on it. The rad you chose is good. Barbs? Meh, not near as good barb design as Bitspower. Change barbs, make your own pump mount stuff. Still, I used the old style barbs and never had a problem long ago and the pump HS is nice.

Prolly going to need different/longer rad screws if your mounting it up top. McMaster Carr for the odd screws if you can't get them locally.

Rad fans? Pick those?

Overall pretty solid, no real issues at all. Good job!

 

[m0r7if3r]

I might be missing something, but don't you need 8 barbs?

 

[JS17]

Was thinking to do my own old chipset heatsink mount, but I'll just have to decide if $15 is worth the convenience for me.

I'll look into getting Bitspower barbs instead. And yeah, I do need 8 barbs in all, but four of them come packaged with the pump and CPU block, so I just picked out 4 barbs for the rad/gpu that were inexpensive. (At this point I'm not too worried about aesthetics as my case is shut without a window, so the barbs don't have the match)

As for fans, I've got a few Yate Loon low speed fans that I plan on using for now. In the future I may upgrade to some nicer fans, but I suspect these will suffice for now.

And for mounting, I'm planning to bottom mount my rad after a bit of modification. In the future I can always top mount a slim rad if it's needed.

 

[JS17]

Ended up ordering earlier today.
I bought some bitspower barbs instead, and I swapped the tubing to Durelene. I also added some sleeving items so it doesn't look too terrible. I'll update once I get the parts and start to put it together.

 

[JS17]

I came home today at 7pm to some parts waiting to be installed. Didn't get too much done today due to the time. I also don't want to rush.

Couple questions and some pics:

1) When moving the rad around, I think I can hear a metal shaving or two moving around. Normal? I assume rinsing will fix this.

2) Here my my plan for the layout (In wonderful MSPaint), anyone see anything stupid with it?



My progress so far involves a naked mess of a computer...



And a very messy apartment room with parts everywhere. I forgot how light my case was when completely empty. Some tidying is in order before I head to bed. (You can make out the rad in the bottom of the case, barely...). The highlight of the night was removing some rivets : )

 

[JS17]

70% done after today. Just need to finish some modding of the hard drive bay so they can fit inside the case / I need to do some wire management after that.

GPU temps seem pretty great. Idle in the low 30's. Load in the low 40's (at 1100mhz).

Question though: The raystorm block's backplate seems to sit on this: (My air coolers backplate curved to not touch this)



So the part of the backplate with the threading for the screws doesn't sit on the mobo, but bends inwards when the block is tightened. Anyone have any thoughts about this? Seems to be holding the block in place, just a little bit off from perfect.

I'll post some *done* pictures tomorrow.