Modding a Antec Kuhler 920

[marjamar]

1. More water does not equal more cooling. It just means that it will take more time to reach an equilibrium is all. But regardless if you have 3 cups or 5 cups of water, if your max temp is 80C, it will remain 80C (of course assuming all other variables remain the same) but just take longer to reach that value (and depending on the amount of liquid added, not much longer).

2. The (only) point of a resivoir in a loop is to make sure the pump has an adequete amount of liquid being fed to it. A res is not required in a loop though.

3. In most cases, assuming adequete flow, which may not happen in THIS case, adding rads is what helps cooling.

Mor7 was spot on in this thread.


Holy cow... this misinformation was on an incredibly dead thread AND you called the guy that actually helped in this thread a 'jerk-off'.

I have a question here. I have heard it before, and no doubt will hear it again, the concept that increase thermal mass (in this case water) will not add overall cooling due to said thermal mass reaching equilibrium (balance). This is a very loaded statement and for sure not one that would always be true. It is at best a statement based on relativity to the conditions being present that would bring about a stabilization in both the heat sources and the thermal mass. Induce any variable such as overclocking, under-clocking, fan control, pump speed, ambient temps in and outside the case, and no doubt many more, will and do effect any equilibrium in any given loop. For instance, let us say we are going to run a 15 minute CPU benchmark at high overclock. We have just enough thermal mass, and just enough cooling capacity (flow, fans, fan speed, radiator(s), waterblock(s), ambient temps, and unnamed others) to hold temps just below the CPU's max temperature. You run the test and get your score.

So, to say increasing or decreasing thermal mass will have no effect on this, is really misleading. Take away half the thermal mass (smaller reservoir) and see what will happen. We all know what will happen, so why do we say more water in a loop will not help, when obviously it will given the right set of circumstances. Also, with more thermal mass, temps over time will without a doubt be lower then they would with less thermal mass. It would all depend on amounts of thermal mass and amounts of heat source. The ability to dissipate (get rid of) the amount of BTU's into open air, would not be altered by more thermal mass, but the effect of ability to keep the CPU cooler is absolutely based in part on thermal mass. Get crazy, use a pond for your reservoir, or use a 8oz. reservoir. As long as both started at the same water temperature, you could run any kinds of test you care to, and you will find the CPU temps will always be colder with a large enough reservoir of water.

So, maybe we ought to stop saying the volume water really doesn't matter, when it absolute does if it is too small an amount.

BTW - This is not meant to debate what you said, as you said it very well and in fact are correct. What happens alot though is people too often misstate what actually does happen with more or less thermal mass in a cooling system. Without sufficient quantities of thermal mass, no cooling system would work anywhere close to efficient, whereas with greater and greater thermal mass, efficiencies will always go up, ad infinitum.

OK.

-Rodger

 

[GTXJackBauer]

College got the best of me...I'm trying to make a comeback though, we'll see.

Oh? And I thought you were part of the condrum retirement crew or at least soon to be. Didn't know you were a young fella.

 

[m0r7if3r]

Oh? And I thought you were part of the condrum retirement crew or at least soon to be. Didn't know you were a young fella.

I almost wish I was at this point lol. I'm about to graduate with my BS in EE (anyone looking to hire an EE? Will travel lol). What happened to ol' conumdrum?

 

[GTXJackBauer]

I almost wish I was at this point lol. I'm about to graduate with my BS in EE (anyone looking to hire an EE? Will travel lol). What happened to ol' conumdrum?

EE?

No idea. I haven't seen him or talked to him in a while.

 

[m0r7if3r]

EE?

No idea. I haven't seen him or talked to him in a while.

Electrical Engineering. The most illustrious of all engineerings

 

[mtdewcowboy]

Ok where to start?
I am a Mechanic of 20+ years in Cryo plant engines & build race engines on the side
I work with exchangers, phase exchange, JT Valves, expanders all to get gas from +90* down to -165* using pressure drops like from 1000 psi to 250 psi across a turbo wheel will drop temps 100*
In the car world yes you add more water to get better cooling and that is by adding a bigger rad to hold more water which gives you more cooling surface to reject the heat load and yes there is a math formula to find how much rad surface you need to reject X amount of heat.
If you want to mod I say go for it, but it will be for looks not any gains

 

[sobe]

Ok where to start?
I am a Mechanic of 20+ years in Cryo plant engines & build race engines on the side
I work with exchangers, phase exchange, JT Valves, expanders all to get gas from +90* down to -165* using pressure drops like from 1000 psi to 250 psi across a turbo wheel will drop temps 100*
In the car world yes you add more water to get better cooling and that is by adding a bigger rad to hold more water which gives you more cooling surface to reject the heat load and yes there is a math formula to find how much rad surface you need to reject X amount of heat.
If you want to mod I say go for it, but it will be for looks not any gains

I take it you read the first thread, didn't see the date, then missed the rest of the posts

 

[JeremyCT]

The ability to dissipate (get rid of) the amount of BTU's into open air, would not be altered by more thermal mass

This part is correct. So, if you can't dissipate more heat by using more thermal mass, then your dT and component temps don't change either.

Also, with more thermal mass, temps over time will without a doubt be lower then they would with less thermal mass

Given your earlier statement, this is contradictory. That is not guaranteed in the least. Where did you get that idea, and where’s your data to support it? Say a person runs F@H, BOINC, or mines bitcoins. The component temps and dT will be determined exclusively by radiator area and fan performance. Reservoir and total loop water volume will have no bearing. The larger volume loop will change temperature slower (both going up and coming down), but the average temp will be exactly the same in both cases.

Get crazy, use a pond for your reservoir, or use a 8oz. reservoir. As long as both started at the same water temperature, you could run any kinds of test you care to, and you will find the CPU temps will always be colder with a large enough reservoir of water.

Now you’ve jumped headlong into the realm of the absurd. Nobody has a reservoir that big. Plus, with an actual pond as a reservoir you have a massive air/water interface at the surface of the water plus the water in contact with the ground surrounding it to dissipate heat. If you’re trying to control and account for variables, you’ve just failed miserably.

Sure, I can come up with some bizarre fringe cases to make what I stated earlier invalid, but those wouldn’t apply to anything that’s going to be typically seen in the water cooling world. Everybody fills their loop to full capacity, whether that’s 4 ounces or 2 gallons. The 2 gallon loop will take longer to reach equilibrium, but the eventual dT under constant load (gaming sessions for instance) will be very very close to the 4 ounce loop.

You can't argue with the basic physics of the problem. The heat has to be dissipated somehow to keep temps down. A larger reservoir does something between nothing and very little in terms of dissipating heat from the fluid in the loop. Fringe cases that nobody will ever experience don't count.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

Yeah, I've never heard that more fluid would bring down your temps other than the proven facts of more heat surface to dissipate it.

I have seen many different water cooling builds for example. The temps all fluctuate based on how much heat surface is in them and not who has the longest tubing. A short loop with less liquid lets say and a bigger loop with more liquid with the same heat generated and heat surface will both perform close to exactly the same. +/-

This debate is getting ridiculous. lol

 

[JeremyCT]

This debate is getting ridiculous. lol

I'd totally stop arguing if people would stop coming in and saying more volume = lower temps.

Oh, and I keep forgetting to m0r7if3r back to the fold.

Good luck with the EE thing man, there's some great stuff you can do with that. I wonder how many people got the "illustrious" joke, lol.

 

[caddi daddi]

stop asking and start modding, this ghetto rig cools like a dream.

 

[JeremyCT]

I miss having my Reserator as part of my loop. I loved the sheer passiveness of it, plus it just looked so awesome sitting on the floor next to my rig.

I saved it though, I'm going to look into redoing the finish inside it once I have a bit more time on my hands.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

Isn't that made out of aluminum on the inside? I remember those kits a while back. I mixed that up once with the Sharper Image's magnetic air filter. It does look similar. lol

Nice Nvidia case btw.

 

[marjamar]

Don't wish to get into a great argument here, but it is simply untrue that a given level of energy in the form of heat will raise water temperature to the same level, no mater the quantities of water in a reservoir. Again, it just isn't true.

What is true however is that the ability to cool a given level of heat source to a lower temperature will be greater with a colder temperature to that same mass of water.

So, if you have a large enough reservoir of water, you will indeed have greater cooling capacity then if you have a significantly smaller reservoir of water, do to the fact the water will remain at a lower temperature and have a greater ability to cool a given heat source.

I know you may want to say someone has shown this not to be true, but you have to consider the physics of this. It is simply not possible to raise to the same temperature unequal masses, given the same amount of energy to do the job. Even over time, it's not possible due to loss of heat to other conversions of that energy. If someone is saying 2 cups or 3 cups of water will cool about the same, they are no doubt right. But to say they will cool exactly the same, simply is not true.

-Rodger

 

[caddi daddi]

yes, it's all aluminum but who cares, the rad's copper and it's all going to rot anyway.

getting the rad out of the little case helps the motherboard and cools a little better.


yes this little case is just awesome!!!!

1/4 inch tube from the hardware store and a razerblade is all you really need.
be sure to dismantle the pump and block and clean it out real good, I don't know how thay make these things but mine and a lot of others have been found full of brown crap from the factory.

 

[caddi daddi]

one of the really nine things about this style of resevator is that the top unscrews and its wide enough that you take a frozen water bottle and drop it in and the temps fall real nice for the benching session..........

 

[sobe]

stop asking and start modding, this ghetto rig cools like a dream.

That's pretty awesome, it's been a while since I've seen someone with one of those Zalman Reserators

 

[caddi daddi]

all by itself, aaannnndddd, all the stuf that comes with it is pretty worthless, but a little ghetto rigging, for the $50 I gave for it, it works pretty dern well.

 

[m0r7if3r]

I'd totally stop arguing if people would stop coming in and saying more volume = lower temps.

Oh, and I keep forgetting to m0r7if3r back to the fold.

Good luck with the EE thing man, there's some great stuff you can do with that. I wonder how many people got the "illustrious" joke, lol.

Thanks! I'm hoping I can free enough time to stick with it...I'm trying to not dive back in to posting as much as I used to immediately, since I kinda feel like I'm not as current as I was at the time and I would hate to give someone bad advice.

I have respect for everyone in every major (though, given, my aerospace/nuclear and radiological engineering buddies get a bit more cred than the people I know in fashion design, dance, etc), but I'm naturally a bit biased towards my own. Besides, you can't spell geek without EE!!!

Don't wish to get into a great argument here, but it is simply untrue that a given level of energy in the form of heat will raise water temperature to the same level, no mater the quantities of water in a reservoir. Again, it just isn't true.

What is true however is that the ability to cool a given level of heat source to a lower temperature will be greater with a colder temperature to that same mass of water.

So, if you have a large enough reservoir of water, you will indeed have greater cooling capacity then if you have a significantly smaller reservoir of water, do to the fact the water will remain at a lower temperature and have a greater ability to cool a given heat source.

I know you may want to say someone has shown this not to be true, but you have to consider the physics of this. It is simply not possible to raise to the same temperature unequal masses, given the same amount of energy to do the job. Even over time, it's not possible due to loss of heat to other conversions of that energy. If someone is saying 2 cups or 3 cups of water will cool about the same, they are no doubt right. But to say they will cool exactly the same, simply is not true.

-Rodger

Having now said that I'm trying to avoid posting for the time being, I'm going to keep this brief and try to offer a perspective you may not be considering.

I think the issue is that everyone is not operating on the same set of definitions - so maybe applying a more technical approach will be appropriate. Firstly, I think the term energy is in appropriate. Energy is time invariant, so it's not particularly relevant to the discussion (since the water is having energy added and removed, and what matters is the relative rates of addition and removal). I suggest the term power is much more appropriate, as it is energy/time. Additionally, I will be using the terms thermal input and thermal output to indicate the power being put into the loop (by the electrical components, pump, etc) and removed from the loop (by the radiator), respectively.

What you seem to be talking about, as best I can tell, by mentioning heating and cooling is what I know as transients (I'm not sure if there's a fluid dynamics/thermo term, but that's the circuits term lol). Essentially, the time when the system is stabilizing. The people disagreeing with you are talking about what I know as steady-state (again, circuit term, forgive me if there's one for fluids/thermo). Essentially you are saying that it will take longer to warm up and cool down with a greater volume of water, which is undoubtedly true, as more total water will require more total energy (not power) to attain a given temperature. However, for a set thermal input (a constant thermal load), the water will change temperature until the thermal output matches the thermal input, at which point it will be in a steady-state until the thermal input changes. For info on why temperature matters in relation to thermal output, google Newtonian cooling.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you're talking about the ability of a loop to manage spikes in temperature when you say cooling capacity. Greater volume of liquid will manage spikes in temperature better as it has more desire to stay at a given temperature ("thermal inertia", if you will). I think when others read cooling capacity they are reading it as thermal output, in which case they are correct to disagree with you, as the thermal output is invariant of the volume of water.

Again, just guessing at what you meant, but hopefully I can clear something up for someone. Please feel free to critique what I have said, it is by no means authoritative, and I welcome corrections and debate (additionally, feel free to use the terms I just defined for clarity, if you would like).

 

[JeremyCT]

Don't wish to get into a great argument here, but it is simply untrue that a given level of energy in the form of heat will raise water temperature to the same level, no mater the quantities of water in a reservoir. Again, it just isn't true.

You keep SAYING this, but you offer no proof of what you're saying. An equation, a link to a site that provides theory behind this, something. I don't take people at their word when they disagree with me and my understanding of how things work, sorry. You'll have to do better than "I said so" if you truly want to sway my thoughts on this.

Isn't that made out of aluminum on the inside?

The metal is indeed aluminum, but it's not bare aluminum. It has a nice primer/sealer surface which is then coated again with a black paint. My algae bloom unfortunately caused the black paint to fail and flake horribly, but the base coat/primer is still intact. I'm not sure what I'll do exactly, but I think it's salvageable.