My new pump arrived...... and it's really big (picture inside)

[UberBlue]

I'd say that the Mag3 will put more heat into the water. Remember the water in this type of pump actually flows inside the motor (between the impeller mag & the "motor"). This transfers heat. The T1 doesn't operate this way, the motor is isolated from the impeller, most of the might end aquarium pumps work the same way.

You just described the MAG 3 and T1 in the same manner. All mag-drive pumps are lubricated with water.

Pump heat is related, but has little to do with heat transfered to the water from the pump motor. Pump heat is the result of the continuous input of mechanical energy, imparted to the water, being converted to heat. You can't dodge entropy or thermodynamics.

The T1 will result in a greater amount of pump heat to deal with simply because it is a bigger pump and capable of moving much more water than the MAG 3. I'd bet a testicle on it.

 

[Korndog]

This might be a stupid question, but what is the head of a normal system?

(normal = T line, all internal to the case, 1 rad, 1 block, 1 pump)

depends on what block, what size tubing, and what kind of radiator...
but don't expect anything under 2' of head. i think mine came out to 2.5', 1.5' lower then my max head.
pumping 540gph @ 3ft.. now thats just insane.. 50psi.. good god... corrosion can't even cloge this sucker.

 

[BigSmokey]

1/2" tubing, white water, chevette HC.

I use a 3/4 T and 3/4 pump connections but the Y is 1/2"

 

[9mmCensor]

But will the amount of extra heat throws in be negligible, significant, or more, but acceptable because of the increase flow and therefore cooling ability.... there inlies the question.

 

[Korndog]

it'll be insignificant, like a ~.60c increase in temps if all 98watts was transfered to the water, which doesn't, plus you could always just put it before the heatercore.. don't think flow will differ where ever you put it, that thing's a monster.

 

[johan851]

Well, all that extra heat could build up over time. But if you have a decent radiator setup, you shouldn't notice it too much...

I'm definitely not an expert on this stuff though - I'll wait to see how it performs!

 

[MrMOSFET]

Pump heat is the result of the continuous input of mechanical energy, imparted to the water, being converted to heat. You can't dodge entropy or thermodynamics.

So you could actually have a 98W pump introduce less heat into the water than a 10W pump. As long as the 98W pump introduces less mechanical energy into the water?

 

[UberBlue]

So you could actually have a 98W pump introduce less heat into the water than a 10W pump. As long as the 98W pump introduces less mechanical energy into the water?

Theoretically you could, but the 98 W'er would have the most ridiculously inefficient motor ever made by man, or the motor output could be run through a set of reduction gears to slow down the impeller.

 

[MrMOSFET]

Theoretically you could, but the 98 W'er would have the most ridiculously inefficient motor ever made by man, or the motor output could be run through a set of reduction gears to slow down the impeller.

Wow... that makes piking out a pump more difficult, unless the pumps motor wattage has some form of a linear relationship to the heat introduced to the system.

I guess you just need to have a feel for the the numbers? Looking at the maximum head and flowrates should give some idea of how much heat will be introduced into the system?

Here is another thought... if the flow rate of the system is quite high the pump wouldnt actually be introducing that much energy into the water would it? If the flowrate was low the water would get "whipped" a lot more inside the impeller housing.

I think I need to take a thermo class. My electrical engineering background isn't helping me out much here :/

 

[felinusz]

Theoretically you could, but the 98 W'er would have the most ridiculously inefficient motor ever made by man, or the motor output could be run through a set of reduction gears to slow down the impeller.

And this is one efficient pump.

There will also be a 120mm fan (or three) positioned in the case to be blowing on the pump,and this may aid the heat transfer to the air instead of the water somewhat.

I expect the heat pollution to be fairly considerable - but I guess I'll see when it all gets hooked up, if my hoses don't blow off, in a twirling mess, and if my radiators don't explode.

 

[Bailey]

Most aquariums have heaters anyway, so any heat added by the pump, just means less time the heater is on.

I should have been more specific, I meant salt-water, specifically reef aquariums. These types of tanks have hundreds of watts of lights over them, keeping them cool is usually the difficulty. A pump that adds heat (2 or more degrees) is BAD (and danners add LOTS for their size).

You just described the MAG 3 and T1 in the same manner. All mag-drive pumps are lubricated with water.

I'll defer to your expertise, but I fail to see how the T1 (and their type) is water lubricated. The motor is sealed off from the impeller. The diagram @ custom sea life shows this (and having taken apart this type of pump before). I guess this means that the pump isn't a "mag drive"?

I guess the heat issue isn't a fair comparison due to the huge difference in pump sizes but for it's size the T1 will add little heat to the water. I'm no expert but I've used a lot of different types of pumps & the sealed motor types such as the T1 don't add nearly as much heat as the mag drive types such as the Danner.

Edit:

To further clarify, I do understand & agree that the energy required to move the water will result in heat being added. What I don't agree with is that X pump @ Y watts = more heat. I do believe that the type of pump influences the amount of heat that will be added to the water.

 

[MrMOSFET]

Here is another thought... if the flow rate of the system is quite high the pump wouldnt actually be introducing that much energy into the water would it? If the flowrate was low the water would get "whipped" a lot more inside the impeller housing.

I know this sounds like the same argument "the more time water spends in the radiator the better the cooling." but I believe this is different so let me clear this up a little.

In a system with a high flow rate the water enters the impeller housing and spends very few revolutions inside before it pushed out the outlet. In a system with a low flow rate the water is forced to spend more revolutions inside the impeller housing therefore more mechancial energy (in the form of heat) is imparted upon the water.

I have this strange feeling that Cathar or UberBlue are going to yell at me.... hehe.

Anyways, I sent an email to CustomSeaLife and asked them if they could give me an idea of how much the pump heats up the water.

*EDIT* All email addresses at customsealife seem to be down...

 

[apenland01]

Where is the picture of the pool that you are using the T1 with????

I looked at that pump and opted for the Hydor L30 since it has 1/2" connectors just like the Maze4 I just bought and the 1986 Dodge pickup heatercore hose barbs. Since I'm new to WC and am only cooling the CPU for now, I just wanted a strong pump for decent money that would let me add other blocks as I gain experience.

That T1 should last you forever though and you won't regret getting a top of the line pump.

 

[SK8]

if you dont wanna worry about blowing hoses you could use a 5 gallon bucket for a res and just have the outlet pump water against the side of bucket and have the tube start of loop in the water so the inlet of the pump sucks water throught the system with out the huge pressure.. just a thought ....
what would be the psi with your setup...

 

[felinusz]

posted by Bailey

I'll defer to your expertise, but I fail to see how the T1 (and their type) is water lubricated. The motor is sealed off from the impeller. The diagram @ custom sea life shows this (and having taken apart this type of pump before). I guess this means that the pump isn't a "mag drive"?

I guess the heat issue isn't a fair comparison due to the huge difference in pump sizes but for it's size the T1 will add little heat to the water. I'm no expert but I've used a lot of different types of pumps & the sealed motor types such as the T1 don't add nearly as much heat as the mag drive types such as the Danner.

Edit:

To further clarify, I do understand & agree that the energy required to move the water will result in heat being added. What I don't agree with is that X pump @ Y watts = more heat. I do believe that the type of pump influences the amount of heat that will be added to the water.

A well thought out post

The following is quoted from the manual that came with the pump...

CSL Velocity Titanium One Manual

Since these units are self lubricated by the pumped fluid, they never need external lubrication.

Past that, I hope that you are right, the T1 should theoretically add little heat (comparitively) to the water, for it's size. Mechanical heat being the primary cause (remember Entropy) , the added heat should be *signifigantly* less than the wattage the pump motor takes. UberBlue know what he is talking about, and there is no doubt in my mind that this pump will be dumping heat - wether it seriously effects performance in my circuit is up in the air untill fittings arrive, and case modifications are finished. I haven't even turned it on yet, having no way to attach hose.

In a system with a high flow rate the water enters the impeller housing and spends very few revolutions inside before it pushed out the outlet. In a system with a low flow rate the water is forced to spend more revolutions inside the impeller housing therefore more mechancial energy (in the form of heat) is imparted upon the water.

I have this strange feeling that Cathar or UberBlue are going to yell at me.... hehe.

Anyways, I sent an email to CustomSeaLife and asked them if they could give me an idea of how much the pump heats up the water.

*EDIT* All email addresses at customsealife seem to be down...

I asked Cathar about this briefly (and felt really bad about it after when I learned he was trying to be on vacation ), and his opinion was that this pump will only give diminishing returns - at a certain point more flow makes very little difference, even to a Cascade, and is outweighed by pump heat. I guess I want to see how it does. I hope I can compare it to a Mag 3 - but I'm still vainly looking for a used, local, one.

I tried emailing CSL as well about the "pump heat" of this pump, and I promptly got a nice "mail returned to sender" message. Maybe they don't take email from "free" servers like my mail.com address due to spam, and virus risks?

 

[MrMOSFET]

I tried emailing CSL as well about the "pump heat" of this pump, and I promptly got a nice "mail returned to sender" message. Maybe they don't take email from "free" servers like my mail.com address due to spam, and virus risks?

I don't think that is the case. I tried sending them email through my University of Maine Engineering Account.

 

[UberBlue]

Ok. I'm putting this pump heat issue to bed.

I dug around on the net and found a few definitions and equations.

1.1.2 Definition of a centrifugal pump:
A centrifugal pump is a kinetic machine converting mechanical energy into hydraulic energy through centrifugal activity.

1.2.3.8 Total head (H):
This is the measure of energy increase per unit weight of the liquid, imparted to the liquid by the pump, and is the difference between the total discharge head and the total suction head.

This is the head normally specified for pumping applications since the complete characteristics of a system determine the total head required.

1.2.1 Rate of flow (capacity):
The rate of flow of a pump is the total volume throughput per unit of time at suction conditions. It assumes no entrained gases at the stated operating conditions. The term "capacity" is also used.

If head is energy content, and flow is the rate of energy delivery, then power can be figured. The unit of power used pertaining to pumps is water horsepower.

1.2.6.3 Pump output power (P w )
The power imparted to the liquid by the pump. It is also called water horsepower.

(Metric) Pw = Q*H*s/366

(US units) Pw = Q*H*s/3960

Where:

Q = rate of flow, m3 /h (gpm)

H = total head (per stage), meters (feet)

s = specific gravity of fluid

With a MAG 3 and a cascade, the the two respective P/Q graphs cross at 6lpm(.36m3 /h) and 2.5m of head.

.36*2.5*1/366 = .00245 water horsepower.

1 water horsepower = 746.043 watts

.00245*746.34 = 1.827 watts of energy added to the water.

I have no idea where the T1 crosses the Cascades P/Q graph (I'd figure and plot it, but this little project has already consumed to much mental energy), so i'll figure wattage at five foot interavals to 25ft of head. I'm omminting my work since it's the same as that for the MAG 3

5' of H: water HP - .0107, watts - 8.006
10' of H: water HP - .0210, watts - 15.693
15' of H: water HP - .0276, watts - 20.629
25' of H: water HP - .0252, watts - 18.839

There, since the MAG3 and T1 are both self lubricated by the pumped fluid (making construction a moot point), I have just mathematicaly proven the T1 WILL add substantialy more heat to the water.

Source of P/Q graphs.

Source of pump equations and definitions.

Source of unit conversions.

 

[MrMOSFET]

The power imparted to the liquid by the pump. It is also called water horsepower.

Hmmmm this sounds a little bizzare. Power is a measure of energy per second. Are you sure this equation isn't for the mechanical power in the water? It doesn't sound like a thermal equation to me.

 

[UberBlue]

Hmmmm this sounds a little bizzare. Power is a measure of energy per second. Are you sure this equation isn't for the mechanical power in the water? It doesn't sound like a thermal equation to me.

All that mechanical power has to go somewhere, or we'd have a perpetual motion machine on our hands. Where it goes is heat.

Power ratings that get attached to pumps is purely the electrical power consumption of the pump motor. If you can visualize a graph containing the wattage figures plotted against the 98w of power consumption by the motor for the T1, you can see pumps have a defined point where they operate most efficiently.

Unless the T1 is operating in an almost free-flow condition, or has 30ft of head placed against it (both improbable in this specific application), The T1 will introduce at least 5x more heat than a MAG 3.

Keep in mind those aren't my words you quoted. That's an ANSI definition.

 

[MrMOSFET]

All that mechanical power has to go somewhere, or we'd have a perpetual motion machine on our hands. Where it goes is heat.

Keep in mind those aren't my words you quoted. That's an ANSI definition.

Ok, I guess I buy that. The friction of the water creates heat...

I was just quoting that so we both were on the same page.