Need advice for a new set of speakers

[Dakyris]

Hello everyone,

I'd like some advice on a new set of speakers to replace my antiquated Logitech Z-680 (no, I never thought they were really good but I couldn't find an excuse to replace them in the past 9 years). Any suggestions are welcome and appreciated.

By the way, I read the other threads regarding speakers advice but while some of them were close, they didn't have the same needs/requirements than I do.

I would use them mostly for gaming (a mix of almost everything : FPS, RTS, MMOs, etc.) but I also regularly watch movies (I mean blu-rays, not youtube crap) and listen to music (mostly FLAC, some mp3s but nothing under 320kbps, various styles).

I'm mostly interested in 5.1/7.1 setups. Keep in mind that this is my main entertainment source and I don't have nor do I want a home theater setup with an HDTV. (Read my system specs below and you'll understand why)

I tried playing with headphones and I think it's ok but I'd rather have a good set of speakers. FYI, I have a pair of Shure SE530 for my music and a pair of Razer Carcharias for my laptop (not the greatest but they're decent, comfortable and not too expensive to replace if I damage them).

No USB connections, period. I tried 'em and I always end up with the sound cutting out because I tend to overload my USB hosts.

My budget is flexible: my target is around $500 but if it's justified I could go up to 2k. Oh and I'm Canadian so not all the products are available up here (limited suppliers, etc.), to make matters worse, I'm in the far north of the country so I don't have access to any decent retailers to test speakers/headphones.

Finally, here are my system specs (it's just my regular list so you have lots of unnecessary stuff for this topic):

MOBO: ASRock Z68 gen3 extreme7
CPU : Intel Core i7 2600k (oc'ed to 4.4GHz)
CPU Cooler : Corsair H80 sealed loop water cooling kit
RAM : 4x4GB Corsair Vengeance 1600Mhz class 8
Vid card : 2x EVGA GTX 570 Superclocked
Sound card : HT OMEGA | Claro
PSU : Corsair HX1000
ODD : Blu-ray drive LITE-On iHOS104-08
HDD :
1x WD Velociraptor 10000RPM 600GB
2x WD Black 2TB WD2002FAEX
SSD :
1x OCZ Vertex 3 240GB MAX IOPS (boot drive)
1x Patriot Pyro 120GB (40gb used as cache (SRT) for Velociraptor)
1x OCZ Vertex 120GB
Monitor : 2x DELL U3011 30" 2560x1600 (only 1 used for gaming)
Case : Fractal Design Define XL with Noctua fans (3 120mm, 2 140mm)

(EDIT 1 : specified that I read the similar threads first)

 

[Theocnoob]

Where in Canada are you? Also, you realize you've put yourself outside PC speakers with your demands and have to buy a receiver/amp and a proper set of speakers yes?
Good think your budget is high.

I'd personally throw 600 bucks or so at 2 good bookshelf speakers and an amp but if you want 5.1 and you don't want it to suck you're going to have to spend more than that. I suggest finding a good HI FI forum to ask what your best bang/buck is going to be. You're going to want to do digital out to said receiver, ideally with your GTX570, leaving your card as a bit of a dud. You could use it for headphones but the amp will have a better headphone amp in it anyways, in all likelihood.

 

[Dakyris]

Thanks for your reply.

I'm in the northern part of Quebec, aka middle of nowhere.

I do realize my demands were a bit high and didn't expect a regular set of computer speakers to be sufficient. I was hoping there was some kind of hidden gem out there that I didn't know about or didn't find during my research... Oh well.

I must admit I don't know much about the audio capabilities of the 570's, are they able to output 5.1 during games (via Dolby Live or something like that)? I remember trying the HDMI output and getting only stereo. The HT Omega Claro is Dolby Live capable with the optical out.

Unfortunately I noticed yesterday that the HT Omega is actually in my spare computer and that my only PCI slot on the Z68 is blocked by the 2nd video card. I'll have to find a way around that because at 2560x1600 (or 5120x1600 when both monitors are active), there's no way I can get decent framerates from a single card.

As you might have noticed from my specs, I generally don't do things half way.

In case you were wondering why I waited 9 years before upgrading, I was until recently stuck in a tiny apartment while I was a student and the neighbors were a bit annoying and kept complaining. I tried various setups until they shut up. Now that I'm free, I want to get something good.

I'll try asking on a HIFI forum for more info but I'll keep monitoring this post.

Thanks again.

Dak

 

[Theocnoob]

The digital out from the HDMI on your video card is likely going to sound better than the optical out on your sound card from what I've read. You'd want to do a passthrough on the amp and split the signal output between your monitor and the speakers. And it wouldn't matter if your monitor was DVI only you can just use a DVI to HDMI cable.

 

[Dakyris]

To get the full resolution I need to use a dual-link DVI-D cable, anything related to HDMI will severely limit the resolution. I'll have to see if I can use the HDMI for audio only and the dual-link dvi-d for the video.

 

[PicodeGallo]

I would go receiver/amp route with some Paradigm speakers. Paradigm is Canadian, so you should find some around there. Their mini/micro speakers (the Atom) are ok, but I would step up to their larger bookshelf speakers if you can (the Titan or Mini Monitor). I'm not sure how much space you have to work with. If you can do two floorstanders, get the best you can and use an amp (not a receiver). They will sing. If you can swing it, their reference series are pretty dang good for the price (though still fairly expensive).

Personally, I'm not a fan of 5/7.1 systems unless you can dump some money into it. A bunch of tinny sounding cans surrounding me just doesn't do anything for me, maybe other than drive me nuts. I'd much rather have a very clean 2.1 that's balanced, images well, and has tight, clean, grab you by the seat of your pants bass.

At least start there, then expand it as resources permit.

 

[Theocnoob]

If you can do two floorstanders, get the best you can and use an amp (not a receiver).

You need an amp and a receiver or an amp/receiver 2 in 1 unit. How is the system supposed to receive anything? A receiver, or an amp/receiver. You get 2 units or 1 unit that combines the two. AFAIK you can't use a straight amp like that..

 

[PicodeGallo]

You need an amp and a receiver or an amp/receiver 2 in 1 unit. How is the system supposed to receive anything? A receiver, or an amp/receiver. You get 2 units or 1 unit that combines the two. AFAIK you can't use a straight amp like that..

Sure you can. Mobo's have DAC's. A simple 3.5mm to RCA cable works great. This is the preferred method unless you have a receiver, pre-amp, or integrated amp that supports digital inputs. Granted all DSP, including the volume control, is done via the computer, but it appears that Dakyris has that under control. In all honesty, in the past few years, mobo DAC's aren't all that bad. The rest of the system usually becomes the limitation where sound quality is concerned. Most of the time, a good amp and speakers will do far more for you than a better DAC will, particularly with games.

 

[Sir Barton]

An amp itself generally has no volume control. If they do have a potentiometer, its to match the impedance of the source component or standalone preamp, not to attenuate volume. On that end, an integrated amp is an amp and a preamp in one unit. The potentiometer on an integrated controls the volume of the preamp, as the impedance of the amp section is already matched to the preamp. With that said, a receiver is nothing more than an integrated amp with a built-in AM/FM tuner. Id be looking into a decent integrated with a pair of bookshelf speakers. While a straight power amp could be used with no preamp on the computer, realize that sound quality is lost when volume is digitally attenuated. When you lower the volume of a direct digital source, you subtract bits of information from the audio stream, thus lowering quality. Ideally, you want to keep the volume on the computer at 100%, and attenuate the volume via analog means on the integrated amp. In the OPs budget, Id look at a NAD C316BEE integrated amp with a decent pair of speakers. The Paradigms mentioned above are fine speakers, especially the Mini-Monitors and Titan Monitors. Ive auditioned both, and they have a smooth, punchy sound. The Titans in particular sound much bigger than they actually are...although they may be a little too big for the desktop as they use a 7" woofer.

 

[Maxvla]

Someone needs to write a canned response with the whole '2 bookshelves and a receiver' response so we can post it in all these logitech and klipsch threads.

 

[Theocnoob]

Sure you can. Mobo's have DAC's. .

Do you have any idea how utterly inferior to the power of 100 a mobo dac is to one on a good receiver? On a soundcard it's a tiny bit better but nowhere near what a quality home stereo component is going to give you.

Someone needs to write a canned response with the whole '2 bookshelves and a receiver' response so we can post it in all these logitech and klipsch threads.

Do we have a volunteer? ^^

 

[Pinky]

Do you have any idea how utterly inferior to the power of 100 a mobo dac is to one on a good receiver? On a soundcard it's a tiny bit better but nowhere near what a quality home stereo component is going to give you.

Is that really true or just audiophile flavored kool aid?

 

[Dakyris]

I would like to thank everyone for their input.

I started looking around for Paradigm speakers as suggested, other sources suggested something similar and the reviews are pretty good. For the receiver/amp I might try an Onkyo, one of my regular suppliers often have sales on them and they seemed ok. (probably a TX-NR609)

Keep in mind that I didn't have much time to look around but so far I was only able to find a handful of websites that sell them around here (and I'm not interested in used stuff). It seems Paradigm is usually distributed by retail stores and the nearest one is a good 8 hours drive away.

Most of the websites I found so far don't seem to have the titans or the mini-monitors. The only bookshelf they seemed to carry were the signature S2 which are $3600 a pair. I'll keep looking for more options in the meantime. I'll have to run a few tests on a friend's HT setup (a basic Sony kit) to see if the video cards can output a 5.1 signal through HDMI for live sources.

As usual I'll keep monitoring this thread and update it if I have relevant information.

 

[Maxvla]

Is that really true or just audiophile flavored kool aid?

Depends on the home stereo component he is referring to. Mass produced low end home theater receivers are about the same as motherboards for processing quality in my experience.

 

[PicodeGallo]

Do you have any idea how utterly inferior to the power of 100 a mobo dac is to one on a good receiver? On a soundcard it's a tiny bit better but nowhere near what a quality home stereo component is going to give you.

Mobo DAC's aren't that bad. The Sony reciever I use can hang quite well to much higher end components. It's hard to tell the difference from it and my mobo's DAC. When scrutinizing good DAC's, it takes a trained ear to some degree, quality and familiar source material, and the equipment to make the differences audible.

Speakers first, then the amp, then worry about DAC's.

Dakyris:

I think you're on the right track with the Onkyo receiver. It will serve you well. I would like to give you some inside info about how specialty audio shops work. They are allowed to sell their certain brands at their store and to a limited area. They are typically not allowed to ship their products all over the place, sometimes even outside a 100 mile radius. Their customer service is done through the dealers. It's very strict too...if you ever have a warranty repair, you MUST go through the dealer as the company itself will not service you.

However, dealers want to sell products. It might be possible to call a dealer, talk to a salesperson, explain your situation, and they may ship you a product. Usually, this requires you to have enough rapport with them. They need to know they can trust you, as they have that companies' product line, well, on the line. They can get anything from their manufacturer's product line. Call, talk to them, and let them know you want to spend some money. Be serious though...if you balk, they likely won't be very helpful again. If you're not serious, don't call. Never say, "well, I can get this at [insert chain store] for cheaper." But don't be afraid to ask for a discount. They won't haggle much if you aren't buying large ticket items or multiple items.

You might also try to get a receiver from them as well. The more you spend, they more they like it. There are upsides to dealing with specialty dealers. Aside from quality products, one phone call does it all. You keep buying from them and they'll bend over backwards for you. Repeat customers are the bulk of their business.

 

[Dakyris]

Thank you for the information Picode, I must admit I'm not too familiar with audio shops as I said, we don't have any nearby. Hell, we don't have much around here, not even a futureshop/bestbuy (not that I would consider buying this kind of equipment from them).

 

[Dakyris]

Since I couldn't find exactly what I wanted I decided to compromise a bit. Got some Sennheiser PC360 at $199 (they usually are $299 over here), also took the opportunity to grab an Asus Xonar Essence (pcie because my only pci slot is blocked, it has a built-in headphone amp). I know I was looking for speakers but I didn't have much time to look around, deal with retailers, etc. and apparently my budget wasn't high enough to get something adequate so this will do for the moment and I'll resume the search later.

 

[Jkicak]

To get the full resolution I need to use a dual-link DVI-D cable, anything related to HDMI will severely limit the resolution.

i just wanted to point out that this statement is VERY incorrect. i'm shocked that nobody else picked up on it.

HDMI=DVI-d with audio.

you listed your monitors at 2560x1600. hdmi can do that but it is actually your videocard drivers that limit the rez to 1920x1080 over hdmi on a pc. don't believe your dell documentation as fact. there are hacks that can be used to get around the driver limitations.

i guess this does not matter much now since you don't need to use hdmi but maybe this will be of value to somebody else that happens to find this thread in the future.

 

[Dakyris]

i just wanted to point out that this statement is VERY incorrect. i'm shocked that nobody else picked up on it.

HDMI=DVI-d with audio.

you listed your monitors at 2560x1600. hdmi can do that but it is actually your videocard drivers that limit the rez to 1920x1080 over hdmi on a pc. don't believe your dell documentation as fact. there are hacks that can be used to get around the driver limitations.

i guess this does not matter much now since you don't need to use hdmi but maybe this will be of value to somebody else that happens to find this thread in the future.

My bad, I always thought that HDMI wasn't good enough for that resolution because of bandwidth limits and didn't bother to research it more. My goal wasn't to spread misinformation. Honestly I only switched to the U3011 recently, I had the older WFP3007 before that and it only had a single input : dvi, so hdmi wasn't even an option.

Thanks for the info, but hacking the driver to enable the resolution isn't really a solution I'd consider anyway.

On another note, I received the Xonar Essence STX and the Sennheiser PC360 Monday and... what a difference. Because my PCI slot wasn't available I could only use the onboard sound card and it was fine for the speakers but when I tried headphones it was terrible. I figured the headphones weren't good and gave up on them.

Now that I have a proper soundcard, I retested the headphones and was surprised. There's a noticeable difference between the razer carcharias and the seinnheiser pc360 (razer are a bit heavier in bass while the mids and the highs are a bit muddy) but it's not as big as I expected. It's a major step-up from the Z680. I'm still playing with the settings and I'm not entirely convinced on the dolby headphone virtual positioning but so far I like what I hear.

 

[Mjolnir]

Make sure you add +12 gain on the AMP as well. (don't go higher for those headphones). (PS; turn down your volume a little bit first before doing this; you may blow your ears off ). Then work out your desired volume from there. Amping headphones makes a huge difference. Especially quality ones that scale well with it. The difference for my Shure SRH 840's is night and day.

I personally run a 3M cord from the front of my desk to the back of my computer for the headphone port. I don't really like passing the front audio ports; as the cable has to run through the case to reach the front of it.. I use the rear output ports for everything.

For some software-based fun; enable Dolby Headphone + 7.1 Virtual for extra boom. Though If you want natural sounding music/sound leave them off. Though this can be fun to play with when you're in the mood for some extra 'oopmh'.

Also play around with the equalizer as you see fit.