Passive cooling with PH-TC14PE & other large air coolers

[ATMINSIDE]

Please stop this kind of comment.

It depends on what you consider "passive" to mean; each component (CPU cooler, GPU cooler, VRM or RAM, and / or case.)

I thinbk thread title sets reasonable parameters to work with here.
"Passive cooling with PH-TC14PE & other large air coolers"

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No you are not at all correct. The links I supplied in OP show it can be done without "monsterous underclock" or "custom case" or "a case with fans".

You do not want to discuss the topic as it is posted in OP. You need be reasonable or we cannot discuss it.

I'm asking you what YOU consider to be passive, hence my posts asking you this question.
Saying "you need to be reasonable or we cannot discuss it" is completely uncalled for when I'm asking for clarification because we don't know your definition of the topic at hand.

Also, I did look at the links.
They all either involve a significant underclock, case fans, or not enough data to reproduce any results.

 

[doyll]

I'm asking you what YOU consider to be passive, hence my posts asking you this question.
Saying "you need to be reasonable or we cannot discuss it" is completely uncalled for when I'm asking for clarification because we don't know your definition of the topic at hand.

Also, I did look at the links.
They all either involve a significant underclock, case fans, or not enough data to reproduce any results.

No they do not.
Your "all or none" kind of interpretation and only trying to discredit replies make it impossible for me to discuss the topic with you. Airflow and cooling is not a simple black or white kind of thing. And the poor standards used to gather most computer cooling data makes eve harder to do. We can discuss this topic or not. Your choice. I will not reply again to your present type of posts.

 

[ATMINSIDE]

No they do not.
Your "all or none" kind of interpretation and only trying to discredit replies make it impossible for me to discuss the topic with you. Airflow and cooling is not a simple black or white kind of thing. And the poor standards used to gather most computer cooling data makes eve harder to do. We can discuss this topic or not. Your choice. I will not reply again to your present type of posts.

My posts are trying to clarify the discussion before going any further.
Without clarification there is no point in comparing data/links/etc because it isn't going to be comparing like-for-like.

You have multiple people in this thread asking for the same clarification as well, yet you seem to choose myself as the only one to call "impossible" and "not reasonable".

 

[doyll]

My posts are trying to clarify the discussion before going any further.
Without clarification there is no point in comparing data/links/etc because it isn't going to be comparing like-for-like.

You have multiple people in this thread asking for the same clarification as well, yet you seem to choose myself as the only one to call "impossible" and "not reasonable".

For the last time:

It does not look like you are trying to clarify it, but are trying to pick it apart.

You have posted 8 times in a thread with 25 total post .. with only you and me the last 4 times.

That is you with me trying to discuss this. Not multiple others. So don't play that tune.

As I have repeatedly said, there is no accredited data that I know of that we can use. Even if I setup a system and started running test it would not be "accredited" data and I suspect you would not agree with it.

Have a nice day.

 

[Janus67]

For what it's worth I had the same criticism, just ATM has been asking/trying to clarify the same thing that has been requested.

If you actually took the time to document and follow a direct process to test these types of things I doubt anyone would disagree with your findings. The issue is not having a dedicated source to match what is trying to be discussed or otherwise just pointing out hypothetical points where someone could say "yeah sure, that could work" and just leave it at that.

The most important part of this thread is trying to clarify the discussion, otherwise it's not a discussion, just banter. Are we looking at items that are considered 100% passive with no fans, cases with a heatsink sitting on the CPU with no fans attached, or somewhere in between. There is a lot of gray area for this discussion. It was already discussed and decided and proven that yes, many heatsinks and CPUs are able to be cooled passively if they are under a certain TDP and offer enough dissipation if there is even minimal fan/air movement. If there is no air movement other than convection it comes down to a lot more guesswork.

I hope that helps clarify what the issue is Doyll. I'm all for an educated discussion, but without setting any parameters (and seeing how you are the thread starter, I imagine that ball is in your court) it's a limited discussion. If you want to set a certain type of parameter and say "okay, let's discuss how well various heavy duty air coolers can do in a case that has fans on but no fans attached to the heatsink' that could provoke some interesting testing and conversation.

 

[ATMINSIDE]

For what it's worth I had the same criticism, just ATM has been asking/trying to clarify the same thing that has been requested.
Thank you, one of the other people I mentioned

If you actually took the time to document and follow a direct process to test these types of things I doubt anyone would disagree with your findings. The issue is not having a dedicated source to match what is trying to be discussed or otherwise just pointing out hypothetical points where someone could say "yeah sure, that could work" and just leave it at that.
Bingo. If you come in with clean, empirical data from testing we will accept the results.
What we son't accept is "I think this or this or this should work".

The most important part of this thread is trying to clarify the discussion, otherwise it's not a discussion, just banter. Are we looking at items that are considered 100% passive with no fans, cases with a heatsink sitting on the CPU with no fans attached, or somewhere in between. There is a lot of gray area for this discussion. It was already discussed and decided and proven that yes, many heatsinks and CPUs are able to be cooled passively if they are under a certain TDP and offer enough dissipation if there is even minimal fan/air movement. If there is no air movement other than convection it comes down to a lot more guesswork.
This gray area is what I've been trying to remove, I'm glad you pointed it out in another way.

I hope that helps clarify what the issue is Doyll. I'm all for an educated discussion, but without setting any parameters (and seeing how you are the thread starter, I imagine that ball is in your court) it's a limited discussion. If you want to set a certain type of parameter and say "okay, let's discuss how well various heavy duty air coolers can do in a case that has fans on but no fans attached to the heatsink' that could provoke some interesting testing and conversation.

Thanks for the explanations here Janus!

Doyll, maybe I should have explained it out more like this, but this is what I've been getting at the whole time.

 

[doyll]

You just hit the nail on the head!

Quote Originally Posted by Janus67 View Post
For what it's worth I had the same criticism, just ATM has been asking/trying to clarify the same thing that has been requested.

What is happening here not trying to clarify, but criticism.

Here is a quote from someone who uses a NH-D14 passively. You probably know him.

I use a fanless Noctua NH-D14 to test case airflows.

Usually the best dual tower heatsinks are the best at passive performance. But really, aside from the e-peen you get from going fanless, a 500-1000 rpm fan inside your case will not be heard. And the airflow produced by the fan, slow though it may be, will push far more air than mere natural convection.

But don't take my word for it. Test your rig passive, and with a slow fan. With the cover on the case, you won't hear the fan.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/...aswell-1150)?p=7738829&viewfull=1#post7738829

Or this one

Get a high end air cooler and take the fans off.
Instant passive heatsink.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/...aswell-1150)?p=7738930&viewfull=1#post7738930

I started this thread to discuss the use of big coolers for passive cooling.

The most important part of this discussion is not refuting my hypothesis.

The most important part should be contributing data to support or refute the hypothesis.

I have tried to show the rational of my hypothesis, but it seems to be falling on deaf ears.
I have tried to show data substantiating the hypothesis, only to have them picked apart rather than seeing how the can apply.

But I have not seen anything posted that substantiating your claims it will not work.

I am expected to "prove" that big coolers can cool passively while you supply nothing to "prove" they cannot.

That is "criticism", not discussion.

 

[ATMINSIDE]

You can call it criticism all you want, but everyone else thinks it's a justified question to clarify the topic at hand.

 

[doyll]

You expect me to supply data to clarify my hypothesis, please supply data to scarify your believe it does not work.

That way we can clarify it from at least one side.

 

[Janus67]

No, the question at this point is What is your hypothesis? You still never answered. Is it to cool a CPU in an entirely fanless case with or to cool a CPU with a fanless heatsink inside a case that has airflow from fans?

Please answer the question above.

If it is the former a lot more information needs to be found outside of one german website. If it is the latter then we have numerous people saying it is possible and review sites, including one of our reviewers (ehume) saying that's how he tests case air flow.

 

[ATMINSIDE]

You expect me to supply data to clarify my hypothesis, please supply data to scarify your believe it does not work.

That way we can clarify it from at least one side.

Since you're the one that wants to talk about impossible, how about answering this conundrum...
How does one disprove a hypothesis that is heretofore unstated?

 

[doyll]

Fair enough.

Hypothesis

Some large top tier air coolers are capable of passively cooling a modern CPU, even when case is cooling passively.​

My experience:

I have ran an i7 920 under a PH-TC14PE in a Define R2 with front door open and top vents open with no fans on 100% load for hours on end in a 22c room. I don't have fancy data logs or graphs to back up that statement, but it is just as true without them being posted as it would be with them. The truth is in the fact it did happen just as I said. I did this at stock and at 3.5GHz, but at 3.5GHz temps were up to 80c. They were 67-70c at stock settings. Wife gamed on same system with a Gigabyte HD 5770 Silent Cell with no issues The bottom and back vent grills are removed, front and bottom have SST FF141 filters and case is raise on an open bottom 40mm caster base so there is much less airflow resistance to bottom vents than most stock cases.​

 

[EarthDog]

Some large top tier air coolers are capable of passively cooling a modern CPU, even when case is cooling passively.

Who disagrees with that (in either thread)? I don't see anyone in either thread that disagrees it can be done. What IS up in the air is the performance of such a solution (in the other thread it was a direct comparison to that CR095 or w/e).

All I see in this thread is people asking, for clarity, by passive do you mean cooler only or are case fans still considering a 'passive' cooling solution?

 

[doyll]

Who disagrees with that (in either thread)? I don't see anyone in either thread that disagrees it can be done. What IS up in the air is the performance of such a solution (in the other thread it was a direct comparison to that CR095 or w/e).

Ok, based on my hypothesis above, I will hypothesize:

CR-95 is TDP rated for 95 watt
i7-920 is TDP rated at 130 watt stock.
i7-920 is using more than 130 watt when overclocked to 3.5GHz.​

We are talking a minimum of 35 watt more heat from stock i7 920 than CFR-95 is rated to handle.
I don't know exactly how many more watts it is pumping out at 3.5GHz, but at least 20-30 watts more than when running stock.
It is pushing at least 10c more heat out than it does stock so approximately 55 -65 watts more than CR-95 is rated for.
I think that's being conservative.

Sense the PH-TC14PE was able to cool an i7 920 (130w TDP) in passive system and CR-95 is rated 95w TDP, I think it is reasonable to think the PH-TC14PE is at least as good as CR-95​

Addendum.

CR-95 has 4x (I think 6mm) single ended heatpipes to move heat from CPU to a circle with with copper rods attached to one side to draw heat from heatpipes for air to absorb.

PH-TC14PE has 5x 8mm double ended heatpipes moving heat away from CPU into 2x fin packs with 41 fins 115x140x52mm in each to draw heat away for heatpipes for air to absorb.

Therefor I think the PH-TC14PE is capable of doing the job as well as CR-95, but it may require the PH-TC14PE orientation to be with fins vertical rather than horizontal.​

 

[baii]

interesting

seem like I delete my post when editing

IMPORTANT: DELIDDED

long story short, case fans in shipping, took 10min for quick test. large fft prime 95 for 10min, small fft is impossible imo.
ambient 63F according to thermostat, pretty low package power, config as pic, not the most optical placement for passive but w.e. side panel is off. Back 2 modu vent off.



Not going to remount, maybe I can let it sit on the front.

 

[doyll]

baii
63f is 17.2c so 4-5c cooler than most testing so running plenty warm.

Was that with cooler fan running?

Appears to be Macho Rev. A in Define S? Was this test with or without side cover on?

I do think GPU is close enough to cooler to be restricting airflow.

Thanks for posting.

 

[ATMINSIDE]

Wait, how is it passive if there's a fan on the heatsink??

 

[Mr.Scott]

Wait, how is it passive if there's a fan on the heatsink??

It's not.

 

[baii]

Well, a fan that isn't moving, oh right, it is still a fan.

 

[EarthDog]

Baii, the screenshot has a fan... they were just making sure. We know now...please move forward (everyone).

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