Rant on Linux Gaming

[xrror]

Sorry I'm a n00b ranting, it's just I'm reading another big whoop about the whole Windows7 with "windowsXP tacked in a VM" thing. Which yes I know you guys could care less about, except... everyone then says to just use Linux instead. That would be ideal really... but. Gaming sucks on linux. Why does that have to be?

I was hoping to post this here, maybe to see if I'm a crazy nutjob once and for all, or if what I'm smoking is any good at all. From a hardware enthusiast and gamer standpoint, Linux isn't a viable replacement yet - but I really wish it was.

One of the most brilliant things Microsoft ever did (even if only the original DirectX team knew it) was to make gaming viable on their OS. Because then who grows up using their OS? Why yes kids and the technically inclined. Then it spreads to the mainstream that while both OS A,B,and C will do all your productivity apps, only A can really play games you can buy at Wal-Mart. As far as XP being a thorn in Microsoft's side, it's amusing that if winXP had DX10 and 11 it would pretty much still be destroying Vista for the next 2 years =)

I truly wish Linux was a viable game platform. It still amazes me that back in the day, even after iD software and John Carmack really did make OpenGL something viable in game producers eyes (and possibly something relevant to Joe Sixpack?) - that the OpenGL committee seemed to laugh it off as a fad. Hardly anyone supports OpenGL in gaming anymore, mostly since the OpenGL committee never could get any improved (supported) shader/pixel/whatnot extensions out for years. Unfortunately this also hurt Linux as a gaming platform. What's sad is indeed NOW OpenGL/CL really does have the potential to compete with DirectX but I think they missed that window of opportunity 4 years ago.

But then I suppose if Microsoft still keeps bloating out Windows enough, and the expense of paying for the “Vista privilege” which who knows maybe DX11 will be Windows 7 only. Well then maybe when PC Gaming dies as an elitist activity that none of us can afford. And then none of this will really matter. But I will miss the game modding scene when everyone is forced into the DRM consoles, and being able to enjoy a game on something better than HDTV. Oh yea and OMG a mouse and keyboard for games? Now I'm talking crazy talk that induced some console gamer somewhere to have an aneurysm.

So I really do want a Linux gaming machine. Gaming is really the only area lacking. I'm fully aware that pretty much any of the Linux distros are up to the tasks of any productivity need I might ever have. And it can do the entire windowing system, stability, customization, networking, appliance, whatever with more pizaze (sp?) than anything Windows might be able to pull out. But unfortunately it still comes down to not being able to play any games I've been looking forward to, and additionally the sad fact that any mods or additional content for said game are most likely going to assume Windows also (though that's mostly just a critical mass thing).

Would it really make a difference if the OpenGL committee (Kronos now?) would ever get over the "we are too good for games, we are for professional applications only" corncob out of their proverbial hole? Would it finally jump start a bright future for Linux finally breaking the Home desktop stronghold once and for all? Because right now all Windows is for me is a DirectX host - which is basically just a game platform where the games are moddable and the sound/graphics/controls are better. But see Linux is truly the OS for modding and could do everything natively better it's just that... well there are few games for it. There needs to be some sort of "DirectX platform" equivalent.

I'd love to see Linux be able to seriously be in the gaming scene, but will it ever happen?

Sorry this was a ramble, but argh am I nuts?

 

[ihrsetrdr]

Somebody will probably come along and explain it much more in depth than I am able to, but it simply boils down to the fact that since Windows occupies a vastly greater percentage of the desktop market, it follows that the developers focus on making games in the DirectX API, which is a M$ product.

 

[Dapman02]

Somebody will probably come along and explain it much more in depth than I am able to, but it simply boils down to the fact that since Windows occupies a vastly greater percentage of the desktop market, it follows that the developers focus on making games in the DirectX API, which is a M$ product.

This, and also DirectX is easier to program for than openGL

 

[kevlar93]

I would switch to ubuntu if you could game on it.

 

[Dapman02]

I would switch to ubuntu if you could game on it.

you, and alot of other people.

 

[xrror]

<blue sky mode>

So if there was a group dedicated to creating a "gaming framework" for linux, analogous to how the original DirectX group did inside of Microsoft went off and "did it's own thing" to get gaming into win95.

Focused on leveraging the strengths of linux kernel, or more like at least facilitating a standardized but hopefully as easy/easier method than DirectX way of allowing access to hardware accelerated video/audio/whatever under linux. Probably couldn't be OpenGL/CL/AL "constrained" anymore - but could be a superset of. Some snappy name too would be good ;p

okay so Yea I know this will never happen, but I can dream right?

Plus I'm not sure about this, possibly why writing games on windows platforms was easier in the past is that well, it seems like Microsoft pretty much punched holes into the OS whenever it felt like it to make it do things... which kinda came back later to bite them as it didn't help the non-existent low-level security situation. But then at the time windows itself was still new.

So that hopefully isn't really that relevant for linux. I'm assuming the fact that linux has matured kernel wise. And probably (okay is) better written, there hopefully won't be the need for the OS speed-hack fest in implementation of a gaming framework. Linux could actually do it the Right Way (tm). I mean if things like Compiz are finally getting to a true stable state then surely some groundwork has been made to this.

It's too bad this would be a massive undertaking to gain any momentum in the linux community. Sadly i think that since a focused linux gaming dev effort hasn't taken root by now, it's only going to happen if there is someone extremely driven to get anything rolling. And argh that usually creates huge "dev wars" from what i've seen - where good (and bad) things languish and die.

Trust me, I really really hope I'm wrong, and there is some uber-gaming project I haven't heard about.

 

[Chris_F]

In order for video games for GNU/Linux to go mainstream, you need a lot of people using it as their primary desktop OS, and I don't mean 1 or 2 million as a lot. Second, ATI and Nvidia need to create better drivers with full acceleration, better stability and performance/features. Then either video game makers need to support or switch to OpenGL, or Microsoft needs to port DirectX to Linux (what, Microsoft support Linux or other free software, utter madness, never gonna happen ever.)

There are always projects like Cedega.

 

[UnseenMenace]

Personally I consider this 'rant' to be poorly conceived and directed at the wrong party's as such I would like to address certain points.

At one point many professional graphics cards only supported OpenGL which was the market leader with regards to graphic API's
OpenGL has always seen more use in the professional graphics market than DirectX, while DirectX is used mostly for computer games. The reasons for OpenGL’s advantage in the professional market is partly historical. Many professional graphics applications such as Softimage|3D were originally written in IRIS GL for high-end Silicon Graphics boxes and was eventually ported to OpenGL. Even long after SGI ceased to dominate the market, many professional graphics cards only supported OpenGL.
Open GL dominated the market until 2000 when Microsoft abused market position and shipped functionality with the OS as such your statement regarding One of the most brilliant things Microsoft ever did (even if only the original DirectX team knew it) was to make gaming viable on their OS. is simply wrong because OpenGL was making gaming a reality on the PC long before Microsoft got into the market
What Microsoft did which was brilliant from a marketing point of view is understand that having this functionality within the OS ensured a forced upgrade path, DirectX 10 is capable of running on XP this is a known and widely acknowledged fact however Microsoft do not provide this functionality which in turn forces an upgrade to Vista

The fact that the desktop candy presented by the Linux desktop today far surpasses anything on the Windows desktop shows the system is very capable with regards to graphics. Linux is also widely used by the video game and movie industry for graphical work.

This suggests that the issue is not with Linux itself but the lack of commitment to the platform itself from game makers. However it must be said that most games from ID software work under Linux
Out of curiosity what action have you taken to inform your favourite game developers that their is a market for their product under Linux, if nobody asks for them the situation will not change.

Good information on Linux gaming can be found at the following URL :
http://kahvipapu.com/blog/2007/06/16/linux-gaming-part-one-first-person-shooters/

I find it amusing that people rant at Linux regarding its gaming ability but not at Microsoft for purposely restricting the capability's of an OS to force an upgrade to play the latest games.

 

[Enablingwolf]

I find it amusing that people rant at Linux regarding its gaming ability but not at Microsoft for purposely restricting the capability's of an OS to force an upgrade to play the latest games.

Thank you for the grin Unseen.


One thing I seem to never see. Is mention there is a very large amount of games on Linux. I can install them and play them without any hassle. Matter of fact. I can install games on my Linux box, much much easier than Windows. Yes, this is where most try and come up with something other than the point.. Linux has plenty of games and you can play games on it rather well...

Usually I read a common response of:. "But, it is not the games I want to play."

Well that is not the point. The world does not revolve around one person... and what they want.. Fact is - Linux does run games, and runs them well. That is the bottom line.

Matter of fact, I just got done playing a game and had a really good time doing so. I had a best run while in the game. Took me a few tries to get past a certain point. So I am rather happy with myself. The name of the game is Warzone 2100. Just to name one game that blows time and amuses me.
It may not be a game you like. But in turn, the games you like. I may not like.. Everyone has differing tastes in games. Why is Sims so popular? Just to name one game title. Guess different games appeal to different folks.
I do concede some folks only consider shooter games .. Linux has a few great titles under the genre.
Another line I hear: " the graphics suck on Linux games."

Again, not a Linux issue. Talk to the entity who made the game(s). Linux is perfectly able to handle high resolution graphics.

Bottom line, games run just fine on Linux. I blame the game developers. Linux does just fine with games. It is open enough, where any game house can very easily make games for the platform. The documentation is open for anyone to use for what they need to get done.

I do not understand why folks are picking up sticks beating the wrong horse. If it bothers you so much.. Well UnseenMenace had a superb question!

Out of curiosity what action have you taken to inform your favourite game developers that their is a market for their product under Linux, if nobody asks for them the situation will not change.

Linux marketshare tid bit..
Maybe this is part of the issue?

Myself I see no issues with Linux and gaming. Linux runs games superbly.

 

[Stratus_ss]

I also agree that its not linux and gaming. Just to back up what Unseen has said. I work in a 3D movie studio and we use predominantly linux.

Just think of the graphics power that it takes to make a movie from 2D to 3D. That alone should tell you its not a failing of the OS. As a side note a few programs we use such as VacLab (which you probably havent heard of) have ceased directX development. In fact we had to hack the program just to get it to work properly with direct X 9. It was converted to openGL.

Finally, there are a growing number of games that run in WINE. This is not my offering of a solution, but simply pointing out that linux CAN run these games just fine. In fact there are a number of titles that I have played reliably in WINE. The point is that it can run them, it is simply a problem with the game studio's API's as opposed to the capability of the OS.

The two systems are binary incompatible. Its like trying to run a disel car on hydrogen. It aint goina work. Sure there may be some sort of home method to convert the fuel, but that will never be 100%. Is it the cars fault that you are trying to make it go with the wrong type of fuel? I think not. Give it the right type of fuel and it will drive just fine

 

[Misfit138]

You are not alone in your frustration. However, there is little hope as I see it.
GNU/Linux is not a viable gaming alternative, not natively, not with wine. (Incidentally, in addition to the lack of gaming, GNU/Linux also lacks good audio and video editing software.)
The largest contributing factor to this reality is that GNU/Linux users and developers are not gamers for the most part. GNU/Linux is a very customizable UNIX-like OS designed and developed by a broad array of sysadmins and programmers, for sysadmins and programmers. In short, it is an enthusiast OS, for those who are, well, enthusiastic about their OS.
For all intents and purposes, gamers could care less about their OS, as long as it allows them to load their game(s) of choice.
I was a long time, hardcore UT2k4 player. I played it on Windows, even though it ran natively on GNU/Linux. Why? Because it just plain worked better; No unexplainable errors, few crashes, and excellent performance.
Now I play 2142 Battlefield on Windows. I have also spent (wasted) many hours attempting to get similar functionality on WINE, to no success.
From what I understand, many people claim that WoW works nearly perfectly on WINE, and this is no doubt due to its amazing popularity and community demand.
The point is that GNU/Linux offers and provides what its user base demands, and gaming, audio, and video software is not a top priority among them.

 

[xrror]

Yea, I'm kinda getting reaffirmed that the general Linux user base aren't really gamers.

I also sense people are thinking that i'm saying Linux is incapable of running games. Nooooo that's not what I'm saying. And hrm I already mentioned that Compiz shows that Linux is no lightweight when dealing with 3D.

No, the world doesn't revolve around me, or gamers.

My gripe at OpenGL isn't that they sucked or were slow. It's that it was actually good! And i'm not praising DirectX and Microsoft's slant to make things proprietary. But indeed OpenGL did stick with their guns that they weren't just some gaming play thing and they are for "real 3D applications." I just wish they had thrown a few more bones to gaming too =(

And this rant wasn't really directed at linux people or the OS, it was supposed to be more aimed at the nebulous drift away of games coming out with at least a Linux port. What happened after the days of where you could buy the boxed copy off the shelf of Quake3 for Linux? It just petered out. why? I'm not pointing fingers, it just sucks cause it seemed like momentum was building then it fell flat? -and again I'm not pointing fingers, I honestly don't know what happened there. Well it sounds like now the linux gamer user base never materialized since... it was never there to begin with.

And I see the bandwagon forming to write me off under the "what have I done personally to help." Well nothing. Why am I going to rally for something that I can't tell is actually wanted by the majority of current Linux users? If I actually miraculously had the ears of major devs, and they ask "okay, so what does the Linux gaming community want?" I feel a collective borg "meh" coming from the linux community. No unfortunately the question would be "what does the Windows gaming community who wants to switch to Linux want." And really I don't feel that the current Linux community would want this... so this idea fails.

Maybe if there was at least some visible project to rally behind for bringing true AAA first run Linux gaming to fruition perhaps maybe I wouldn't feel like this would be a few thousand people spamming developers. Plus guidance to where developers would listen would be nice too, but indeed is there really a cause here or not?

But regardless thanks everyone for their input. Lol at least now I can know that I am smoking the crazy weed and this isn't going to happen.

 

[usp8riot]

Gaming wasn't a big issue for me when using Linux. I find the games I play are Linux-capable anyway, or open source. When game devs make their games Linux-compatible and/or open source, it helps the community and the fun of the game when they do it a lot for the love of the game instead of just making money.

Sub-par graphics aside, I really got to like some open source games when I was relegated to Linux such as Open Arena, Enemy Territory, Open Assault, ect along with the more modern Quake Wars. But yeah, Linux really needs more users to gain more devs. It's kind of a catch-22.

 

[jaymz9350]

Linux really needs more users to gain more devs. It's kind of a catch-22.

Yeah that's what sucks. I, like a few others around here I'm sure, would switch if current titles were playable out of the box. I just finally got around to putting Ubuntu on my laptop and even with little time on it I really like it so far and would probably put it on my main rig but it's mainly a gaming machine.

 

[curtis1552]

I'd LOVE to see a linux port of some games. I would actually take the vicegrips and masterlock off my wallet to buy one. I haven't bought a game that came out since 2002, which was still when i was in high school.

In all honesty, if they can make it work on OSX, why can't they make a proper linux port? OSX is based on the linux kernel isn't it?!

 

[Enablingwolf]

Yea, I'm kinda getting reaffirmed that the general Linux user base aren't really gamers.

... it was never there to begin with.

And I see the bandwagon forming to write me off under the "what have I done personally to help." Well nothing. Why am I going to rally for something that I can't tell is actually wanted by the majority of current Linux users? If I actually miraculously had the ears of major devs, and they ask "okay, so what does the Linux gaming community want?" I feel a collective borg "meh" coming from the linux community.

And really I don't feel that the current Linux community would want this... so this idea fails.


But regardless thanks everyone for their input. Lol at least now I can know that I am smoking the crazy weed and this isn't going to happen.

I snipped out some of your post to draw in the parts I am referring to. Not to try and take it out of context.

There is a lot of Linux users who game. I am one of them. I might not use the same games as you. May I ask, do you consider only shooter games as a gamers game? Or are other types of games in your opinion games? Like card games, board games... and RTS type games? There is hundreds if not thousands of games that are native to Linux.

I still stand by, there is a lot of games the play native in Linux. There is some I even think they suck, really bad. But I do no see your point in thinking Linux does not have any gamers. Or has any good games.

Linux does tend to go in the direction. If it does not exist. Make it exist. When like minded folks get together.. They can do great things. Even if it trying to get something what may seem hard.. Work. Like the point you made.. Thinking game devs will not listen.. What makes you think that? Are you willing to take a while to make it hap[pen. Or at the first sign of resistance give up?
I play more than a couple of hours a week on my Linux machine. I find there is plenty of games to make me happy. If not, I open Wine up and play them.

If Linux fails me. I go over to the Windows Box. Though sometimes my Windows box fails me. I have no choice but to use my Linux machine. i.e. - Diablo II does not run in Vista 64bit.


I am asking this as polite as I can... What games do you mean? Or do you mean it has to be a certain type of game.. or a certain age of game..
I do understand fresh games are a nice thing.. But, I would like some clarification what you mean that there is no gamers in Linux.. Since a couple of us popped up and mentioned we game.

the thing I always see. Is someone will come in. Make a few comments. Then reply saying they didn't see what they wanted.. and that is it.. Why would anyone rally behind that? Is someone supposed to do it for you?
I would like to see more games in Linux. but I find plenty of games in Linux. To make me happy. Does not mean I would not help anyone get what they want... But I am not wanting to do something for others if they are not willing to do for themselves..
I am not trying to be a jerk.. I am asking questions and trying to find out.. Honestly, I see a lot of comments, but no one who makes these types of posts is actually willing to do anything, but give up easy. they do not show any strength and rally folks behind them.

Please excuse me.. I am having issues concentrating right now. But wanted to post this.. So if you could bear with me. I would appreciate it.
I am not trying to be a jerk or be obtuse.. So if it seems like it.. Pleaser look past that.. I am trying to find out what you mean exactly, and align thoughts.

 

[ihrsetrdr]

I enjoy Tux Racer & Free Cell; my wife loves Mahjong.

 

[Enablingwolf]

Mahjong simply rocks.. I am a Mines master!

Hey if you haven't played Warzone 2100 and like RTS games. Give it a shot. It is actually pretty good, and very easy to work with. It does get crazy in the higher levels too.

One cheesy game I like.. Is Lincity-ng.. lol My wife also digs that game alot..

There is a number of native games in Linux I like. Coupled with Wine. I find plenty of time wasting games that work prety good and are fun.

Some of these you can find newer versions, or find better sites .. But it's a good place to poke around to see what is around..
http://www.linuxappfinder.com/games

One of the finest shooters games evahr!!!
http://www.linuxappfinder.com/package/wolfensteinet

 

[ShadowPho]

I both programmed small games for Linux and Windows. IMHO, DirectX is much nicer to program for if you have tab completion.

 

[xrror]

Sorry, I did word it rather poorly when I put that there were no linux gamers. I was trying to say that I'm not sure there is a large gamer presence in the linux space (in raw number of users). But then maybe it's the same proportion as Windows, just with a larger user base the same proportion would be a larger number of users? Master of the word I am not.

And the "what do I consider as a game" does bring up a good point. I do tend to forget about the card/tile/80'sArcadeClone/etc as games one would buy. I don't mean that in a condescending way - I'm just used to looking around for a freeware version if I ever have an inkling to play. Which hah yea linux has that covered in spades for some reason ;p

Also I wasn't meaning to slam all the Linux titles out. Many look pretty awesome. When I went looking again to see what was in the Linux space (um, research for this thread?) there are several I'm going to go and see if there is a Windows port... and/or see if i can fire them up on something like Cooperative Linux.

So separate from the cool Linux developed game scene (yes I know I've entered hypocrite land here, hear me out though) my entire premise for even having the rant to begin with was just the generalization that "high profile games" don't come out to linux like first class citizens so to speak, and many not at all. The question is why is this so? I guess if I go back on my mealy-mouthed reversal on the "no linux gamers" I guess it then boils down to linux just needing more raw market share.

The catch 22 again.

As for my personal wants/needs um, Street Fighter 4 for PC is a game I'm planning to buy. Also Fallout3:Vegas. So my entire rant was me I wishing I could go out and buy boxed copies of games like this with Linux compatibility proudly stamped on the box.

But yea none of this is the fault of Linux itself. I don't know of any magical carrot to drawing more game devs to linux (though the rumors of Apple buying EA probably wouldn't hurt!) other than raw market share.