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[Simple Test]danner mag 3 vs eheim 1250

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Ven0m said:
Most of it is rather heat. I would love to have pump of which most energy goes to moving water :)

I found circulation pumps far more efficient than most of aquarium pumps, but I don't know if their efficiency factor is >0.50

by the way... group buying is against OC forum policy... so that group buying was done on another forum... if you are in US you can order a danner mag 3 easily off the net...
 
TyRex said:
you're forgetting kinetic energy(the purpose of the pump....to move water)

In a closed loop, the pump only adds kinetic energy while it is starting up. Once the steady state flowrate is reached, none of the energy input to the pump is being transformed to kinetic energy. (Otherwise the flowrate would be continually increasing.)

At steady state, all the energy put into the pump must leave as heat. (Aside from a relatively small amount leaving as sound/vibration.)

How much of the heat leaves the pump through the water, and how much leaves via other paths, varies a lot depending on the pump and the environment it is in. Difficult to say anything definite in that regard without setting up some pretty sophisticated testing.

A centrifugal pump in a watercooling system won't consume as much power as the manufacturer's spec. The power consumption of centrifugal pumps decreases as the flow is restricted. Watercooling systems being fairly restrictive; the power consumption is substantially less than the worst case spec.
 
Since87 said:
... The power consumption of centrifugal pumps decreases as the flow is restricted. Watercooling systems being fairly restrictive; the power consumption is substantially less than the worst case spec.
Would the power consumption not drop off as the flow rate approaches the maximum as well? I believe so, since the power delivered by the pump is dependant on the flow rate, pressure produced, and the specific weight of the fluid.
 
Hmmm I thought that the power consumption would increase as the restriction is increased because the pump would be working harder to move the water...

Or is it because the more restrictive the system is, the slower the impeller spins the less power consumption...

correct me if im wrong
 
I don't believe so. The equation to determine the power requirement when selecting a pump is:

P = Q * DH * rho (density) * g

If either Q or DH goes to zero, then the pump is imparting no power to the water. I believe that this has been measured for a restricted outlet (i.e. Q --> 0) but I'm not sure that it's been done for the other case (DH --> 0).
 
Skulemate said:

Would the power consumption not drop off as the flow rate approaches the maximum as well? I believe so, since the power delivered by the pump is dependant on the flow rate, pressure produced, and the specific weight of the fluid.

I haven't tested at maximally open flow. (I will do so soon.) However, here is what myv65 (Dave Smith) has to say:

On your "separate aspect", what you're seeing is the difference in where the energy goes. I guess a little more definition may be required here. A classical setup is to have a pump drawing liquid from a stilled reservoir and pumping it somewhere. In such a case, the power input to the pump impeller shaft will go up with flow rate. Fortunately, a pump has no knowledge other than the conditions that exist at its inlet and outlet. For this reason, the same is true for an inline setup and its power also increases with flow rate.

What will vary as flow changes is how the energy put into the impeller shaft shows itself within the liquid. In the simplest sense, the "useful" work of the pump would be defined as the pressure difference on either side of the pump multiplied by the flow rate through the pump. True engineering types may complain that "work" has units of force*distance while flow rate multiplied by pressure has units of force*distance/time (power). Whatever. When you look at a centrifugal pump's efficiency curve, you'll find that they define efficiency as flow*delta-P/shaft power.

At zero flow, efficiency is zero. Likewise is true for zero delta-P. In the former, all energy goes into churning the water, ie directly into heat. You immediately see this in your example. As soon as you have some flow, the energy gets split between ineffectual churning of the water and producing flow. Efficiency climbs from zero and starts marching towards its peak. The peak efficiency will occur at some nominal flow that lies between zero flow/peak head and peak flow/nearly-zero-head. Even at peak efficiency, some of the shaft power doesn't generate any useful flow and produces heat directly. Point here is that the portion showing directly as heat is inversely related to the pump's efficiency.

The rub for a closed system is that all the energy put into the water eventually turns to heat. This is the result of pressure drops through the remainder of the system. In a truly open system you can have some energy storage if you indefinitely pull water from a low elevation and pump it to a high elevation. Note that our "open systems" really aren't open from an energy perspective.

Another thing that comes into play with submerged pumps like your example is the motor behavior. A split capacitor, single phase, four-pole motor will have a peak efficiency in the range of 65%. The efficiency curve looks like a parabola. So as you move away from the "full rated load", the efficiency will drop off dramatically. A dead head condition will tend to drop the motor output load, but will also bump the motor some along its efficiency curve. I have done absolutely zero work in this area to measure the effects, so I can't say positively how significant this is. All I would point out is that energy input to the motor does not drop as rapidly as the shaft output power drops due to the efficiency curve of the motor.

In your example above, this translates to lower total energy input when dead-headed, but 100% of that energy coverting immediately to heat. In a free-flow case, more energy is input to the fluid, but a smaller amount is directly converted to heat.

[In this thread.]
 
If I'm reading what he's posted correctly, I believe that what I said is correct then. I'm interested to see the results of your testing though.
 
Perhaps I should have quoted the following statement of his as well.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE that works with real centrifugal pumps would tell you that power goes up with flow rate. This is true despite the lower head that you get at higher flow. All ya gotta do is look at a pump curve that includes power and it'll be obvious.

What I can't quite get is safemode's insistance otherwise. I don't frequent OC that often, but generally thought the guy was OK with heat transfer and thermo. Obviously pumps aren't one of the guy's strengths.

Fact of the matter is that the lowest energy consumption you'll ever get is when you dead-head a centrifugal pump. The highest you'll ever see is when TDH is zero. Peak efficiency is the funky one, as it peaks at different flow values for different pumps. Rarely will it exceed 90% in the best industrial pump. Aquarium-style pumps would be hard pressed to exceed 50%. Given the setups people tend to favor, I figure most water cooling pumps are in the 30%-40% range.

The kinetic energy output of the pump is at maximum at dH=0 even though the amount of power dissipated in plumbing outside the pump has dropped to zero.
 
dscn0530.jpg
 
Since87 said:


In a closed loop, the pump only adds kinetic energy while it is starting up. Once the steady state flowrate is reached, none of the energy input to the pump is being transformed to kinetic energy. (Otherwise the flowrate would be continually increasing.)

<sarcasm>
so friction and gravity dont exist????? hmmm......I must've forgot about that................
</sarcasm>

In a closed loop, if the pump stopped adding kinetic energy, the system would(and will) stop very quickly. Hence, if you turn off your pump............the water stops flowing. Friction and gravity are always acting on your system. If the pump stopped adding kinetic energy to the water, and did nothing but add thermal energy...........the water would just sit there and get hot without moving.

When the water reaches a SSSF state, friction and gravity will still act on the system by taking away that kinetic energy. The pump will counteract the friction and gravity by adding more energy to the system in kinetic form..........thus a SSSF environment will eventually be reached by the taking and adding of energy(friction, potential, or kinetic) by friction/gravity and the pump
 
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Umm, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a pump impart potential energy into the system rather than kinetic? It's this pressure differential caused by the pump that drives the flow.
 
holy crap thats a lot of pumps! are they all going to watercooling? if so you might want to replace the O-ring with silicone. just a suggestion if you feel its necessary. unless your gonna let the user do it.

yes, the 1250 can be run submersed.

Jon
 
Skulemate said:
Umm, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't a pump impart potential energy into the system rather than kinetic? It's this pressure differential caused by the pump that drives the flow.

Potential energy is stored energy due to gravity..........gravity is the only force that applies potential energy. Any force can increase the potential energy of a system(increasing the height), but only gravity can apply it. Therefore, the pump cannot transfer potential energy. The pump transfers another type of energy(in the form of kinetic) to counteract the potential energy stored in the system.
 
TyRex said:
Potential energy is stored energy due to gravity..........gravity is the only force that applies potential energy. Any force can increase the potential energy of a system(increasing the height), but only gravity can apply it. Therefore, the pump cannot transfer potential energy. The pump transfers another type of energy(in the form of kinetic) to counteract the potential energy stored in the system.
What's wrong with considering the pressure energy imparted by the pump as potential energy? It's roughly the same thing as increasing the elevation of the fluid. The pump will dump pressure energy into the system, raising the piezometric head (made up of the elevation and pressure heads), with the total energy of the fluid rising accordingly... the velocity head (difference between piezometric head and total fluid energy) won't change proportionally though, because there's no change in velocity of the fluid.

On a somewhat related note: can a spring not store potential energy?
 
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