The common misconception of the expensive Mac

[FudgeNuggets]

First and foremost, lets keep the discussion here logical and civil. I'm inviting the mods to strike down with great vengence and their mighty banhammer anybody who wants to troll or turn this thread south......


There has been a bit of Mac talk going on the forums lately and I keep hearing not only from our novice users but also from our more advanced, senior and mod users about how expensive Apple computers are. This may have been true in the PowerPC days, but just not any more. That is as long as you compare (*ahem*) Apples to Apples and not compare an iMac to a $300 E-machine or low-end dell.

I'm going to do 4 posts here for 4 different machines, please refrain from responding/flaming until I have all 4 posted. Thanks,


Let us examine a few machines.

Apple's mainstream machine is the iMac which is slimline unit where all the hardware components aside from the keyboard and mouse are built into the monitor.

The only manufacturer to offer something similar to the iMac (as far as I know) is Dell with the XPS ONE. Now nobody really thinks of Dell's as pricey, right? Well, let us compare......

Here is an XPS ONE:

Aside from being black, it looks a lot like an iMac, right?

Here is what you get on an XPS ONE for $1299 (base entry level price)

• 
  1. 20" monitor
  2. Core2Duo E4500 2.2GHZ
  3. Windows Vista
  4. 2GB 667mhz DDR2
  5. 250GB SATA HDD
  6. Intergrated intel graphics and sound chip
  7. 8X CDRW/DVDRW
  8.. 1 year warranty
  
  Here is what you get with an iMac for $1199 (100$ CHEAPER than the Dell)
  
  1. 20" Monitor
  2. Core2Duo 2GHZ CPU
  3. 1GB 667MHZ DDR2
  4. OS X
  5. 128MB ATI RADEON HD 2400XT
  6. 8X CDRW/DVDRW
  7. 250GB SATA HDD
  8. 1 year warranty
  
  So, what you have here is a difference of 200mhz and 1GB of RAM but an infrerior Video Card for $100 MORE on the Dell. Gee, these Macs are REALLY expensive aren't they????

 

[FudgeNuggets]

Now, lets go onto the second Apple machine and the one I have, the Mini.

The ONLY manufacturer out there providing competition to the Mini right now (as far as I know) is Aopen with their Mini-PC.

You buy a Mini-PC barebones so I'm going to use NewEgg pricing to bring it to the level of the Mac-Mini

1.Barebones Aopen Mini PC $320
1. 1.83ghz Merom $250
2. 80GB 2.5" 5400rm HDD $60
3. 1GB PC5300 (667mhz) SoDimm $25
4. Toshiba 2.5" CDRW $35
5. Widows Vista Home Premium $100 OEM
6. Graphics and sound are built in Intel chipsets
Total Cost $790

Mac Mini with same EXACT equipment aside from OS X Leopard in place of Vista Home Premium $599

Wow, another REALLY expensive, Mac eh? Noticing a trend yet?

 

[FudgeNuggets]

now onto laptops..... I have a bad feeling about this

It was hard to spec a 13" Macbook to a similar machine so I ended up choosing a Sony Vaio SZ VGN-SZ645P1 as a BASE MODEL to compare against, we all know that we could get into Macbook Pros and Dell XPS laptops to get pricey if we wanted.....

SONY VAIO for $1199
1. 2.0GHZ Intel Core2 Merom
2. 13" Widescreen XGA LCD
3. GeForce 8400 mobile GPU
4. 1GB Sodimm 667mhz
5. 80GB 5400rpm HDD
6. CDRW-DVD-ROM
7. Windows Vista

Apple 13" MacBook for $1099

1. 2.1GHZ Core2Duo Merom
2. 1GB Sodimm 667MHZ RAM
3. 120GB 5400RPM HDD
4. Intel X3100 HD graphics
5. CDRW-RVR Rom drive
6. OS X Leopard


So, for $100 LESS than the Sony you get a 40GB larger HDD and a bit lesser (IMO) graphics with the Macbook..... REAL EXPENSIVE, right

 

[FudgeNuggets]

Mac Pro (the BIG MAC DADDY), Now THIS is where it gets EXPENSIVE

Let's just go NUTS on this one for fun

I've equipped the Mac Pro equally against a Dell t7400

Both contain.
1. 2 Quad Core 3.2 Ghz Intel Xeon CPUs
2. 4 1TB HDDs in Raid config
3. SLI Nvidia Quadro FX5600 GPUs
4. 32GB RAM
5. Wireless and Fibre
6. 16X CDRW/DVDRW
7. Dell has Vista Pro and Mac has Leopard OSX
8. No displays

cost:
MAC PRO -$16,800
Dell- $20,700

WOW! Macs are REALLY expensive aren't they??????

 

[David]

This all presupposes you'd spend $1200 on an all-in-one desktop PC, or $1100 on a laptop. If so, the Macs are a viable option. If you're spending $500 on a PC or $800 on a laptop, they aren't.

Hence the reputation for being expensive. They don't do low-end solutions, they do mid-end and high-end machines.

 

[FudgeNuggets]

I hope this can put to bed some of the tired OLD misconceptions about how Macs are just sooooooooooo darned expensive. Sure a Ferrari is expensive compared to a Ford, but you can't compare a Ferrari to a Ford as it is unfair. You compare a Ford Focus to a Chevy Cobalt not to a Ferrari Enzo or even a Chevy Impala. You do the same with computers. You cannot compare a Dell Optiplex to an Mac Pro or even an iMac and you cannot compare a generic $500 Best Buy special ECS laptop to a Macbook. When you compare Apples to Apples, you see that the Mac machines are not really expensive any more since they did away with PowerPC.

 

[FudgeNuggets]

This all presupposes you'd spend $1200 on an all-in-one desktop PC, or $1100 on a laptop. If so, the Macs are a viable option. If you're spending $500 on a PC or $800 on a laptop, they aren't.

Hence the reputation for being expensive. They don't do low-end solutions, they do mid-end and high-end machines.

Eaxctly, thus the very punnable Apples vs Apples comparison, the me discounting E-machines and entry level machines off the bat and the car comparison. You want a Ford Focus, don't go shopping or comparing them against a Lincoln or a Jaguar. Instead look at a Chevy Cobalt or a Dodge Calibur.

 

[Adragontattoo]

ok now you need to do the same thing for the G5, Macbook Pro and such.

Wow if you go bottom of the barrel, you can usually get really close in price.

Ok onto critiques,

First one
The dell gives me 1gb of memory MORE then the apple
The dell gives me 1yr IN HOME service, apple is mail in IIRC.
to get comparable in memory the price is now even at 1299, though I can add more memory to the Imac out the door.
the XPS is a bit faster with a 2.2 vs a 2.0 not that big a difference but some.
Integrated video on the XPS vs a HD 2400 XT on the Imac.
I can upgrade the HDD out the door on the Imac but not on the XPS.

Net Result:Total cost is about even, mac wins with more customization options, Dell wins with In home warranty..

Next one, the Mac Mini vs anything.

Mac mini wins, case closed.

Next one, Macbook vs XPS 1330 (stay with Dell to Apple competition for EOU)

Xps 1330 999 out the door
Macbook 1099

both have 13.3" screens

Macbook has 2.1 vs 1330's 1.66 C2D
both have the same HDD, same CD/DVD durner,same Memory, same graphics out the door.

1330 starts at 3.97lbs (not clear if this is empty or as offered)
Macbook is 5lbs.

1330 has

2 USB 2.0 compliant 4-pin connectors
IEEE 1394a
RJ45 Ethernet port (10/100)
Video: VGA
Video: HDMI
ExpressCard 54 mm slot
8-in-1 removable memory card reader
Audio jacks: Stereo in & headphone/speaker out (x2) dual digital array mics
Dell Wireless 1490 802.11a/g Mini-Card

macbook has
Two USB 2.0 ports, one FireWire 400 port
10/100/1000BASE-T (Gigabit)
Built-in iSight camera
Mini-DVI video out with support for DVI, VGA, S-video, and composite video output via adapters (sold separately)
Built-in AirPort Extreme (802.11n)5
Built-in Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR
Combined optical digital/audio out, combined optical digital/audio line in, microphone, speakers

Advantage appears to be arguable either way.

 

[freakdiablo]

I actually did this once a year ago, built a Mac G5 and some Voodoo PC, both direct from their sites. The mac was $1000 cheaper ($19,500 vs $20,500). Then I went and put one together on Newegg and it was $5000 cheaper then the mac (but yeah, most of the time it will be cheaper).

But yeah, I think if Mac put out a good cheap computer, it would sell really well. At my highschool, there were about 50 kids going to college for some kind of design, 4 already owned a mac and 35 wanted a mac, but could only afford a lower end dell.

 

[FudgeNuggets]

Yes Dragon, we're essentially agreeing upon the point that the notion that the Apple Macintosh machines are expensive is outdated.

I think we can throw out the G5 because it just isn't relative any longer since the switch to x86 architecture.

 

[Adragontattoo]

Yes Dragon, we're essentially agreeing upon the point that the notion that the Apple Macintosh machines are expensive is outdated.

I think we can throw out the G5 because it just isn't relative any longer since the switch to x86 architecture.

Isnt here where I am supposed to go into a hate filled tirade about Macs?

I think it is here, maybe I passed it already, lemme backup and try again.

*fumbles with the map*

 

[FudgeNuggets]

Isnt here where I am supposed to go into a hate filled tirade about Macs?

I think it is here, maybe I passed it already, lemme backup and try again.

*fumbles with the map*

Nah, you must be in a good mood today...

 

[Blackstar]

I think we can throw out the G5 because it just isn't relative any longer since the switch to x86 architecture.

And one major plus due to that switch, compared to the other PC manufacture options available, is that I can run 3 OS's on the Mac natively. Mac OS, Windows (XP or Vista), or many flavors of Linux. The PC can only support 2 of those out of the box (and to try get Mac OS 10.5 on PC's requires a lot of hoop jumping and exactly the right hardware).

For my money, (considering the hardware is almost exactly identical) I'd rather have the machine that can run 3 OS's instead of just 2.


- Blackstar

 

[Hardin]

I hope this can put to bed some of the tired OLD misconceptions about how Macs are just sooooooooooo darned expensive. Sure a Ferrari is expensive compared to a Ford, but you can't compare a Ferrari to a Ford as it is unfair. You compare a Ford Focus to a Chevy Cobalt not to a Ferrari Enzo or even a Chevy Impala. You do the same with computers. You cannot compare a Dell Optiplex to an Mac Pro or even an iMac and you cannot compare a generic $500 Best Buy special ECS laptop to a Macbook. When you compare Apples to Apples, you see that the Mac machines are not really expensive any more since they did away with PowerPC.

Ferraris perform better than Fords, but you can assemble a much more powerful pc on newegg for a much lower price than an imac so it isn't really the same thing.

 

[hkgonra]

This all presupposes you'd spend $1200 on an all-in-one desktop PC, or $1100 on a laptop. If so, the Macs are a viable option. If you're spending $500 on a PC or $800 on a laptop, they aren't.

Hence the reputation for being expensive. They don't do low-end solutions, they do mid-end and high-end machines.

$800 on a laptop ?
I buy at least 20 computers a year ( on a slow year ) and I can't remember when I spent more than $500 on a laptop.

I guess my biggest problem is that imho "entry-level" systems are all the 98% of people using computers need for work or home and Mac has nothing to compete in that market, which is why I still say that macs are expensive.
Your car analogy had one flaw Fudge, you don't need a dragster ( in any brand) to go to the store and get milk.

I am still using a 3 year old dell 400sc that I paid $199 for at work and it does everyting I need it to do just fine.

 

[theELVISCERATOR]

A mac with a C2Duo really isnt a mac anymore imo..

 

[iii9ix3]

you can get a lenovo T61 with 2.4GHz C2D, 2GB, 120GB HD, CD-RW/DVD-ROM, WiFi, and integrated bluetooth for $1011.75 shipped. Same thickness (both ~1.1") and weight (~5lb) as the macbook while having a .8" bigger screen (which translates to ~.42" X .38" bigger). If you are flexible (who absolutely NEEDS a 13.3" screen that cant handle 14.1", as one example) you can definately get a better or similar PC for the same or cheaper.

Now I do agree that Macs are more affordable than ever, but as a few have said before me, for most people, the $300 bargain box at Best Buy will do everything they need and right now, Apple can't compete with that.

 

[myarrowsaim]

I'm still waiting for something that can compete with my macbook pro (latest gen 15 inch)

weight, size, specs and features.

 

[David]

$800 on a laptop ?
I buy at least 20 computers a year ( on a slow year ) and I can't remember when I spent more than $500 on a laptop.

I guess my biggest problem is that imho "entry-level" systems are all the 98% of people using computers need for work or home and Mac has nothing to compete in that market, which is why I still say that macs are expensive.
Your car analogy had one flaw Fudge, you don't need a dragster ( in any brand) to go to the store and get milk.

I am still using a 3 year old dell 400sc that I paid $199 for at work and it does everyting I need it to do just fine.

I'm going by average prices over here - looking at approx £400 for a decent laptop here (new) which is approx $800. Was just a number plucked out the air

 

[DerekDRP]

Well done Fudegman.

This more like food for thought and I would buy the mac over a dell any day.