What's the limit? Heat or Stabilty? OCing 970BE

[Magnummur]

Hey, I'm also new to OCing.

I've read Dolk's Guide, and many threads and posts this past week. To no avail are they helping me sofar to stabilize my system at 3.9ghz and above.

I can infact get it stable enough to run 3dmark vantage @ 4ghz to the end and score but in most cases when I run prime 95 one core will create an error in rounding?..or my system resets on me completly.

I think I have lots of thermal headroom as when I can get prime 95's bt to hold out for about 10 minuts my cpu temp's at 47c at 1.475v and cpuNB 1.3v, 2800mhz at 43c. I've jacked the cpu volts as high as 1.5v and its steady below 52c. These settings sofar are what have worked best but from what I've read it seems I should be able to do much better.

I've also backed down my Vengeance 1600 ram to 1333 and laxed the timings as much as possible and it's command rate to 1T as per another's suggestion in another thread, just so to eliminate that possibility.

Is my OC limit my patience to find the stabilizing combination, or is it the heat?

The below image are not my current best running settings but you'll get the gist of what Im working with...and thanks.
http://www.facebook.com/DittsyBop#!...68726526349.2115999.1501655557&type=1&theater
Can we not upload images right from our computer to post?

 

[bassnut]

Yes you can upload your pics directly here. Click on Go Advanced and Use the attachment tool ..... looks like a paperclip at the top. I have uploaded you pic from your facebook page for you but if you can include a snap of HWMonitor while running prime, say after about 10 to 20 min it will show your settings and heat under load.

Its been a long time since I have done any OC work with the PII X4 I will let someone else answer your questions as far as OC'ing it. Someone should be around shortly.

In the meantime while you wait try another run but lower your CPU/NB frequency a bit and give it a try.

 

[givmedew]

Hi, I didn't see what heatsink you are using but that temp seems rather low. Are you reading it off your motherboard or off the AMD temp. Did you download AMDs overclocking software? It has the temp readouts for the CPU. So do many other programs you should see 4 temps they will all be the same but you should see 4 and they should be labeled as core 0, 1, 2, 3 or maybe 1,2,3,4 either way that is the temp you go by not the motherboards cpu temp.

I would take your NB back to stock. The reason I say this is I had a 960T that was stable all the way up to 4.2GHz @ x6 I ran it at 3.9GHz @x6 and had the turbo functioning properly at 4.1GHz. I changed motherboards and from one asus to a sabertooth and changed ram from adata to vengeance and started having rare issues with stability. For some reason it turned out that I was no longer stable at 2800MHz I needed to lower it to 2400MHz.

Either way when you are trying to find your stable OC you are not supposed to OC anything else. So your ram should be stock, your NB should be stock. Just OC the CPU.

Also you need to at least find one point that you are stable at. So go down a few steps to maybe 3.6GHz lower the voltage a little. Then run prime95 for several hours. Once you find a point that you are certain you are stable then work from there. If you start at 3.6GHz and find it is stable then either lower the voltage or raise the multiplier. I would recommend lowering the voltage down down down until 3.6GHz is no longer stable and then make a note of this voltage. Then start going up from there.

I am not sure if I read that guide you spoke of but almost every guide I have ever read speaks of not over-clocking anything else at the same time.

Once you find a speed you are happy with and a voltage you are happy with then set it back to stock and find your best ram speed then set it back to stock then find your best NB speed. After that you can try your OC with just the increased ram speed if it is stable then increase the NB speed to what you where stable at. If it is stable again then you are finished and good to go. You may find that you wont be able to run all 3 at the max you had found individually but then again you may.

Hope this helps

Again though those temps seem rather low for that voltage so I think you are looking at the motherboard temp.

 

[Magnummur]

Hi, I didn't see what heatsink you are using but that temp seems rather low. Are you reading it off your motherboard or off the AMD temp. Did you download AMDs overclocking software?

Hey thanks for some quick replies sofar guys!

I need to figure out how to put my list of equipment below my forum messages still. Im not new to forums but I'm just not handy yet around this interface and it's been a while I've chatted on a forum site. So if you guys could please excuse the newbie-ism for now I'll get around to it adventually..

What you see in the screenshot above are my cpuz windows and Asus' pcprobe temps.(thanks Bassnut!) The tempurature/voltage monitors in the screenshot are not at the temps and voltages I wrote about above in my first post. Those are my settings on auto except for the cpu multiplier set to 20x.

- "I think I have lots of thermal headroom as when I can get prime 95's blend test to hold out for about 10 minuts; my cpu's temps are only at 47celcius while running at 1.475v and my cpuNB running @ 1.3v for 2800mhz. The NB temp readout is only 43celcius aswell.
I've jacked the cpu volts as high as 1.5v and the multiplier as high as 20.5x. While the processor's prime95ing, the cpu temp stays steady below 52c but I'm lucky if I can get prime 95 to run more than 20 seconds most of the time at this speed."-

These settings: CPUNB 2800mhz at 1.3v, are what stabilised my system the most I could get it to be at cpu multiplier 20 and 20.5x, not the auto settings you see in my screenshot.

I use a brandnew Corsair H70 cpu cooler I just bought for only $50! It works awsome except I can't say I enjoyed the installation process very much. (awkward to seat straight and clip in over the processor). It keeps my cpu temp at 10c lower than my stock hs and fan, both with and without load! I have some major airflow flyin through my case aswell that's sitting on a basement floor at 21c. (Ya, I measured my computer room's stratosphere ) The ambiant temperature on my table top is 23c!

What do you mean 4.2ghz at X6? Certainly not your cpu multiplier nor your CpuNB mutliplier?.... ex: Cpu-NB freq @ 2800 Mhz =200Mhz X 14 (dolk's guide also suggests your voltage for this particular speed, the "cpuNB" voltage not the "NB" voltage setting should be 1.3v) He made a chart and it's in his guide which I just saw posted up new again today.

What I am able to overclock to stability without changing any other settings, every voltage speed and timing set to auto, is 200fsb X 19. = 300mhz per core above stock 3.5ghz.

I also found that booting up with the OC settings done from in bios as apposed to AOD, made for a more stable overclock change and the readouts of voltages in AOD are not correct or the voltage and temp monitors wont work at all in the program (program error from the OC probably).

It doesn't tell me my NB or SB's temps niether. Just cpu, individual cores and the ambiant case's air temp somewhere off the mobo away from heat sources on the board.
With my cooling and my motherboard (ROG's crosshair 4), and from what I've read, I'm surprised if I cant OC way more than this!

The question remains aswell for some expert to answer; Is the only thing limiting my ability to stabily overclock is the heat or the right combination of timings and clock settings? Or to rephrase this question; if heat were not an issue, should I be able to overclock all the way to 4.5ghz and maybe +?

Thanks for the input guys!

AMD P2 970 x4, Corsair H70 cpu cooler, Asus Crosshair 4 formula mobo, 8GB Corsair Vegeance 1600mhz, crossfiring Powercolor Radeon 5870's, and Coolermaster's 1000w silent gold psu.

 

[RGone]

My how to put up Sig at OCF.


New Shortcut method for putting a Signature with your system information following your every post so people can know what is in the case that they are trying to assist with. You can use something like what is shown in my signature as a good template of needed information Thank you.

 

[Mandrake4565]

Welcome Magnummur, I found that once I passed the 20x multi mark on my 955be it would be unstable using any more multiplier. In order to further overclock it I needed to push the fsb. I also wasn't able to get mine stable with the NB Freq above 2700. I did not need to drop my ddr3 1600 memory to 1333 until I went above 4.3. I would put the command rate back to 2t unless your planning on benching. Every processor is different so what worked for me may not work on yours, in the end the highest I had mine was 4.3 2 hr prime stable.

 

[RGone]

What's the limit? Heat or Stabilty?

Is my OC limit my patience to find the stabilizing combination, or is it the heat?

Not sure that those two questions are accurate. You first and foremost want stability. Stability is a condition. Heat is not a condition but a factor to be considered and handled when overclocking with the result of maintaining stability.

Overclocking is raising the speed of components beyond their specifications. To do so you generally will have to add voltage at some point to have an increase in speed and still remain stable. A result of additional speed by increasing voltage is increased heat. Generally you reach a point where more voltage does not give more speed but certainly more heat. In this balancing act of added voltage for more speed and "handle" the heat with better cooling to the point you reach the end of that add voltage for more speed process.

During this add voltage, increase speed and handle heat, you will reach the place where stability suffers because the added voltage is overcome by heat and then stability is out the window. The processor can no longer do the calculations in order without failing to maintain accuracy.

So a stable computer is a major requirement otherwise it is useless. Balance the out of spec speed with voltage to maintain stability and you must keep the heat from reducing the added voltage effectiveness. That is the process of pushing your parts and pieces beyond spec, that we generally call overclocking.

 

[givmedew]

Mag, sorry if the x6 thing was misleading I should have been more specific. I mean that it is running all 6 cores and since it comes out the box with 4 cores the extra 2 don't always OC as far or at all when compared to the first 4. Also the heat is much higher. That's all I meant by x6.


Also you are saying that you where able to get a prime95 stable OC to 3.8GHz on stock voltage? How much further have you gone after that? One of the things that pops out as a red flag is that all the motherboard settings where on auto. Which they are no longer on. So you have changed a variable and that may be the change that is making it hard for you to hit your goal. There is also no guaruntee as to how far you can OC your cpu and some people definately have better clocking CPUs than others.

I always charted my speed and lowest voltage I tested stable at on the way up the ladder. I made sure as much as posible was set to factory settings with no OCing on any other components including the NB. After I was complete I had a graph and I could look where I really had to start pooring in the voltage with minimal increases in speed. Once I found my stable speed I worked on OCing the ram and NB seperately. It took a while to do but there are no magic type in the numbers situations for you.

You gotta take it slow and it will be rewarding in the end.

 

[BeepBeep2]

Hello Magnummur

Could you please tell me what kind of error you are getting in Prime95, such as:
BSOD, then what kind (0x00000124 or IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL, MEMORY_MANAGEMENT, etc....or error in Prime such as "FATAL ERROR: Rounding was 0.5 expected less than 0.4", "ILLEGAL SUMOUT: Restarting test" ...etc.

Can you also list all of your current OC settings again with it? I feel there's been a lot of bickering and talking in this thread without too much problem solving.

By the way, your temperatures look fine, you shouldn't get worried until much above 60c.
Thanks

 

[RGone]

Bickering ???

bicker = Definition: nastily argue

Synonyms: altercate, brawl, caterwaul, cause a scene, cavil, dig, fall out, fight, quarrel, row, scrap, scrape, spar, spat, squabble, tiff, trade zingers.

Post #2 > Bassnut answers OP's question about how to attach images.

Post #3 > givmedew explains more of Dolks How-To for overclocking.

Post #4 > OP Says thanks for quick replies so far. Asks how to make a signature. Adds other information about his situation and asks this question again. "The question remains aswell for some expert to answer; Is the only thing limiting my ability to stabily overclock is the heat or the right combination of timings and clock settings? Or to rephrase this question; if heat were not an issue, should I be able to overclock all the way to 4.5ghz and maybe +?"

Post #5 > RGone answers how to make a signature,.

Post #6 > Mandrake4565 Welcomes Magnummur to the forum and suggests not using multiplier only to overclock but to use some FSB as well since it helped him greatly.

Post #7 > RGone gives answer to question about Heat or Stability.

Post #8 > givmedew apologizes for being unclear if he was.

Post #8 > BeepBeep2 says Can you also list all of your current OC settings again with it? I feel there's been a lot of bickering and talking in this thread without too much problem solving.

 

[Magnummur]

Rumble in the OC forums?!?!?!

Holy $h1t Rgone!!! roflmao

Okay now that I've pick myself up off the floor....

And if you're both actually serious, be polite and have a skin you two!

Rgone thank you for your pointer to the signature and the gist of what overclocking is about. So in a sense heat is what's gonna stop me and nothing else?

Beepbeep2, please don't criticise my thread fanbase or were all gonna nickname you mudslinger
To answer Beep's question however; The BSOD error I dont remeber what it was but I'll get that to you next time I see it. The Prime95 error messgae is ""FATAL ERROR: Rounding was 0.5 expected less than 0.4"

From how I interpreted Dolk's Guide, my OC process is as follows:

-1 Fix all settings to their stock values and take them off auto
-2 Raise CPU multiplier and scan for stability
-3 Raise and scan untill instabilty is detected
-4 Raise CPU voltage untill stabilty (or percieved) is achieved
-5 Continue raising CPU multiplier if achieved and $h1ts still runnin cool and scan
-6 When raising cpu voltage fails to cure the stabilty issue(I stopped at 1.5v or 0.15v over stock), raise CPU-NB voltage first then scan.(I raised it as high as 0.175v over stock = 1.35v)
-7 Raise CPU-NB speed till greatest stabilty achieved at the current OC. Ensure the CPU-NB is recieving enough voltage for its OC according to Dolk's chart.
-8 Still nothing? Try tweaking the Ram down for the time being in clock speed and timings

Although it's extreemly well written, I do not pretend to take Dolk's guide as grail especially seen as how he was over clocking with an older and lower rated processor and an older mobo chipset to accompany it.
There is likely more for someone to gain from a 3.0Ghz "Denab" x4 than a 3.5Ghz as they are essentially identicle processors except that mine comes with a guarentee(basicly) that it will run stable and proper at 3.5Ghz unlike his 940 at whatever the stock speed is.

I say this because, In his chart he suggests as his theroem is debatable; that at 3.5ghz my processor should be running with a CPU-NB speed of 2222.22Mhz
On auto settings, my motherboard chooses to run my processor which is rated for 3.5Ghz with only a 2000Mhz CPU-NB clock and 1.175v to power it.

So if I'm mis-interpreting Dolk's guide please criticise me on this as I am all ears(in this case eyes ) on this subject and thank you again!

 

[givmedew]

-1 Fix all settings to their stock values and take them off auto

The first response I posted was that you need to put everything back to stock. Including the NB, maybe I don't know what I am talking about but I sure thought the NB was 2000MHz so if it is anything but 2800MHz you are breaking the 1st rule to that persons OC guide. Also I think (maybe I am wrong) but I think that the NB is rated to 1333MHz ram. It will run 1600MHz no problem but while you are OCing you should leave this at 133MHz at the stock SPD timings. They should all be manually entered in and not left to auto. If you have a memtest cd this would be a good point to stop and run memtest with your NB at 2000MHz your CPU at stock and your ram at 1333MHz. What this will tell us is that your rams seems to be stable at those settings.

Then WITHOUT touching the NB or anything else for that matter except the multi and the voltage start raising your multi slowly.


So as I explained earlier you need to start somewhere and I think the best somewhere maybe less than half your goal like 3.9GHz ensure it is stable overnight. If it is stable then you know that one thing is certain. My computer is stable at 3.9GHz stock ram and stock NB settings. After that you can continue to up the multi till you get close to your goal.

Also as someone noted... I guess none of us are really directly answering your question because we are trying to jump in and help you overcome the issue not just answer a question that isn't going to get you very far.

The answer is that YOUR limit is going to be stability. You are not following the directions of the guide you are reading and you may be rushing things. You need to find the stable volt/multi for each multi on the way from whatever the highest proven multi is to your goal. You can't just skip from 3.5GHz to 4.5GHz.

I recommend to you that you start over from scratch and really pay attention to the guide and the rules you yourself posted. Becuase you have told us that you OCd your NB and you have told us that you have left settings on AUTO and other things that your guide tells you not too.

Also as someone might have already pointed out. You are not guaranteed a certain OC. The chip itself, the motherboard, the ram, and to some degree the cooling all play into getting to 4.5GHz also try to remember that 4.5 is only a slight improvement over 4.3 and may not be worth the extra voltage which is why you need to know the voltage for all of the multipliers on your way up. Would you be willing to add .1v to go from 4.4 to 4.5? If you are not testing properly you may just be doing that. (Althought that would be a little extreme).

 

[Magnummur]

Umm, now where have I gone wrong?

I'm not sure how exactly, but I've seemed to somehow mislead you to believing that I've changed all the settings all at once.

2800Mhz is not the stock speed. In Dolk's table #3 it states that at 4Ghz I should have roughly a 2.5Ghz Cpu-Nb speed, which does not work. The computer will not even boot at 2.4Ghz setting or 2.6Ghz. It will however at 2Ghz and 2.8Ghz

What perhaps I should've explained is that I followed my listed process above and came to the settings described way above that seemed to offer the greatest stability achieved and I am somewhat disappointed that I cannot achieve a more sturdy overclock above 3.9Ghz as of yet.

Also AOD seems to be unreliable at providing active information. It does not display my voltage settings that I set in bios properly nor my core temps. I also discovered setting the voltage tweaker bar to 1.475 asuming it was going to set to that voltage, it added to my already current 1.425v, .125 of a volt over what I had set in bios.

Overclocking to 3.8Ghz then 3.9Ghz is what I did at first really with auto settings, then when at 3.9Ghz it screwed up. I then fixed all the settings to their stock values then tweaked from there once I observed that they were not sturdy settings.

I then began to pour on the cpu voltage. I am now overclocking reliably at 200fsb x 19.5 with 1.45v. Testing now with Occt for the last 8 hours.

The auto settings for this speed were obviously not enough. And fixing them to this speed which once again were stock except the cpu speed were insufficient.

 

[givmedew]

Can anyone shed some light on why he would say it should be at such and such a speed unless he was OCing from the FSB and not the multiplier?

I keep trying to tell you that you need to set it to 2000MHz while benching. You notice you have an even 2.8GHz and the guy who made the guide does not have a speed that ends in 00. To me that says he is using fsb not just the multiplier. You are not using FSB so you can run the NB at an even 2000MHz so can you please do this!

 

[Mandrake4565]

Mag, Download Cpuid Cpuz and Hwmonitor and re read Bassnuts post #2. Post those ss and the we can begin to help you.

 

[Magnummur]

Thanks for following my posts guys! I'm also sorry if the way I explain things seems confusing. Writing or speaking are not my strong suits
Anyways, maybe here is where I feel I got confused;

Dolk writes;
"If your CPU is too fast and your CPU-NB is too slow, you will create instability. If your CPU-NB is too fast, your memory may become unstable, or your CPU may become unstable."
"First thing you need to do is get up to 3.4 GHz stable. This should be pretty easy as it should only be using the stock voltages and a bump up on the CPU-NB and HTT, if that. RAM should be at its default SPD settings as well. If you have a Thuban, make sure to turn off Turbo Mode in BIOS. Open up AOD; This tool is designed to do exactly what I am showing you. Make sure you have AOD open and CPU-Z open at the same time. CPU-Z will be used as an accurate tool to show what speed your CPU is at, and what Voltage it is at as AOD is not 100% reliable with this.

Now that you are setup and ready to go, you will now start to increase the CPU-Multi by 1 and then hit Apply. Let AOD take its time in setting the CPU Frequency. Once it seems that your System will not crash, open up wPrime v1.55 and set the thread count to 6 under advanced settings. Run wPrime 32M. If no errors are thrown, and your Computer continues to run, this is considered a theoretical potential overclock of your CPU. This does not mean you will be able to run 24/7 on these settings, it just shows that your CPU can handle an instance of intense benching which means there is hope (sometimes very small). With each successful wPrime 32M run, close that program, increase the CPU-Multi by one once more, and hit Apply. Repeat wPrime test, then repeat CPU speed increase until either one of two things happen; either the system becomes unstable due to lack of voltage, or the CPU will get too hot. The Voltage issue is simple, increase voltage. You should know how high you will want to push the voltage, but a reasonable guideline is to not go beyond 1.55V on air cooling. The recommended voltage for 24/7 usage is 1.40-1.45 v. If you run into a situation in which wPrime throws an error, this is considered a theoretical max as well. Although, the reason behind that error could be caused by RAM or CPU-NB, but for now we will consider this as a theoretical max."

To read all of Dolk's Guide(and the most up to date): The 3-step way to properly overclock your phenom 2.
http://www.overclockers.com/step-guide-overclock-amd-phenom/

I realise thats an eyefull for most but I think you can see what I got hooked on.

Basicly once I started pushing past 3.9Ghz (beyond 400mhz over stock) and had my cpu voltage to 1.5v with all other settings fixed to stock values and realised instabilty at 4.0Ghz I started hunting with the cpu-nb for balance and my memories' settings to make it work.

What I have realised so far is that for me to achieve the greatest stabilty possible as of yet to run at 4.0Ghz and 4.1, I must increase the cpunb to 2800mhz and add voltage to 1.3v atleast.

When I have time this weekend I'll put together a good screen for all of us to see with the software asked of me to use.

Thanks fellas.

 

[RGone]

I can believe you have such a problem. 98% of the rest of the people will not have the issue. That is why you get such incredulous replies. Probably just something odd about the IMC of the cpu itself and the ram.

It is for sure that most people do not experience your situation. That is why what Dolk wrote has an out in that he really is saying Either OR the Other. That covers it both ways and yours is just contrary to the giant majority.

Sounds like you have found your key to your cpu and that is the only thing that matters. Good luck man.

 

[Magnummur]

Here's what I've got...

This is still after yet another week of farting around with everything the only speed I can get stable. And running down at cpu vid 1.45-1.475v isn't working anymore. From bios I have the cpu voltage set to 1.483v

I bumped up my cpunb voltage by .0125 to see if that would help stabilize a bit more before adding cpu voltage. So here's whats 9hours OCCT stable sofar.

All other settings you see here are bone stock fixed to their original specificaions for the 3.5GHz speed

I'm tempted to go pickup a new 965be to see if its just this processor thats not as friendly at higher speeds. The store where I bought these parts in this system 2 years ago still has two left and Ill bet I could run off with them for less than $60 Canadian.

One other thing I noticed in the power and thermal data sheet I think was that Dolk's 940Be's normal operating voltage was something like 1.35v to 1.5v
My processor's voltage range is meant to be from 1.3v to 1.4.
Is my voltage setting getting crazy now you think?

 

[Mandrake4565]

I believe that 1.55 is about as much V-Core as you should be pushing. If it stable then be happy with it, I personally wouldn't run that much 24/7. One thing I did notice is that you're running your memory at 1600. Maybe drop it down to it's stock speeds and see if you can push a little bit more with stability.

 

[Magnummur]

Ya I've tried that...

I've stress tested at 1333 and 1600 and there is no difference except a slight hit on a benchmark score.

I've also changed the command rate from 2T to 1T and back again. (I forget now which way it was suggested to go.)

I've also relaxed the timings to as high a value as they will go.

I noticed one thing all of us would really notice a difference is if you tweak you cpu and cpunb load line calibration feature, It won't tweak your voltage for you as you suck more power and that will most deffinitly cause a crash.

It is suggested on the ROG website OCers guide for the Crosshair V that we run this at the medium setting (50%).

0% means your voltage will be roughly exactly what you set it to upon my observations.

I've had my cpunb speed and voltage up and down as well as my ht.

I've almost convinced myself that buying a higher rated processor that's a BE is a waste of money. I mean the difference of say from an X4 955 to a 980 all you are getting is guarentee that it will run at their stock speeds without a glitch.

Come next pay Im gonna go swindle a deal on one of those 965's after I look at some performance charts for the new fx.

Tom's Hardware's site is saying from AMD the 970 and 980 are out-performing (to what respect idk) many of the thubans and fx chips. There's a hiarchial chart there for us to see and make us wonder why.