Which Pump & CPU Block should I go with?

[GenkiM]

I read the Introduction sticky but it was written over seven years ago and a lot of the links are dead, so looking for advice...

I need to cool my i7 4790k.

My motherboard also has a chipset & MOSFET all in one radiator block: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Z97-MPOWER-MAX-AC/Gallery

I have two Hardware Labs Nemesis GTS 280 X-Flow radiators (the best I could find that will fit my system) on their way to me, one for the top of my case and one to be mounted on the side window vents once I get the grilles machined out (I've ordered low profile GPU power cable adaptors for this purpose).

The spec for the GTS 280 X-Flow's...

140 mm x 1 fan slim form factor one-pass radiator
326mm x 153mm x 29.6mm (L x W x H)
16 FPI 25 Micron Copper Fins

They have the following restriction at 0.5, 1 & 1.5 GPM:

0.8 PSI at 0.5 GPM,

0.22 PSI at 1 GPM

0.44 PSI at 1.5 GPM

I posted at the MSi forums about the water block on my motherboard and was advised that chipset & MOSFET all in one waterblocks have a restriction of close to zero.

What kind of pump do I need? What do people recommend? Also, which CPU block should I buy?

 

[maxfly]

restriction in modern loops really isnt an issue until you start getting into dual/tri gpus and several large rads running off of a single pump. with a normal loop theres nothing to worry about. your rads will be the least restrictive components in your loop. as long as your loop is maintaining 1gph to 1.5gph you will be golden. a single ddc or d5 will easily maintain that with a cpu/mb/gpu/2xrads loop(assuming thats what your going to run?). running 2x280 rads is a little overkill for that type of loop but its never a bad thing to have a little headroom. it leaves room for an additional gpu or super high tdp cpu.

for a pump you want either a laing/xylem(same co. different regions) ddc or d5 based pump.
ddc
http://www.performance-pcs.com/laing-ddc-pump-12v-ddc-1t-plus.html
d5
http://www.performance-pcs.com/swiftech-mcp655-series-12-vdc-d5-water-pumps-bare.html

deciding on your pump can be made easier if you have a particular reservoir in mind for example the xspc photon 170 comes with or without a ddc or d5 pump attached to the res.
photon d5 w/o pump
http://www.performance-pcs.com/reservoirs/xspc-d5-photon-170-reservoir-v2.html
photon ddc w/o pump
http://www.performance-pcs.com/reservoirs/xspc-ddc-photon-170-tube-reservoir.html
photon d5 with pump
http://www.performance-pcs.com/combo-pump-reservoir/xspc-d5-photon-170-reservoir-pump-combo-v2.html
its usually cheaper to buy the res/pump combo vs seperately depending on sales, where you buy etc.
or if you want a pump seperate from the res you can go with a pump top. which can improve head pressure and flow depending on what you go with.
here is a ek d5 top
https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-xtop-revo-d5-acetal
you can also get the pump included with the top. they also have an rgb version of the x-top if thats something you want.

some popular cpu blocks are the ek supremacy evo, xspc raystorm, watercool heatkiller and alphacool eisblock. im sure ive forgotten a few but youll likely come across more as you search for components. when it comes to my personal preferences i like the supremacy and heatkiller.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

Not trying to step on what Max has said as those are great recommendations, it should be noted that there are two newer designed DDC pumps with better tops that increase their head pressure than the older ones that have been around for a while. MCP35X and MCP50X. As for D5's, I'd go with the EK D5 G2s. D5 pumps are quieter while having more flow but DDC's are a bit louder while having more head pressure, think of it as static pressure for fans, push through.

 

[Mr.Scott]

MCP50X is the bang for the buck these days. Tough to beat.

 

[GenkiM]

restriction in modern loops really isnt an issue until you start getting into dual/tri gpus and several large rads running off of a single pump. with a normal loop theres nothing to worry about. your rads will be the least restrictive components in your loop. as long as your loop is maintaining 1gph to 1.5gph you will be golden. a single ddc or d5 will easily maintain that with a cpu/mb/gpu/2xrads loop(assuming thats what your going to run?). running 2x280 rads is a little overkill for that type of loop but its never a bad thing to have a little headroom. it leaves room for an additional gpu or super high tdp cpu.

Currently needing to run CPU/MB/2xRads but I want to overclock my 4790k and it's already saturated my current entry level 280mm expandable AIO (Alphacool Eisbaer).

I've got a delid die guard protector on its way to me and am going to upgrade my thermal paste to Grizzly Kryonaut which (in combination with the delid) I'm hoping should bring the temps down by maybe even 10+ degrees C. People have reported cooling gains of 10 to 20 degrees C from delidding. Plus adding the extra radiator I'm hoping should help.

I would like to add a GPU to the loop but the thing is, my motherboard is designed from the ground up for overclocking, and the EVGA SuperNova T2 I have has super stable continuous power delivery; plus I upgraded my RAM from four sticks to two so as not to cause issues with overloading the CPU's memory controller (because DDR3 motherboards are only Dual Channel), and now it's a super stable platform for overclocking, and my 4790k seems to eat up anything I throw at it. I've managed to get it to boot into Windows and launch Prime 95 at 4.7GHz on all cores with just a very minor voltage bump. With my current cooling I just can't get the thing to crash without starving it of voltage. I'm concerned the second rad is going to be consumed entirely by the CPU overclock, especially if I start feeding it higher voltage, but I'm not experienced in these things so I don't know. I'm hoping there'll still be headroom for a GPU.

Not trying to step on what Max has said as those are great recommendations, it should be noted that there are two newer designed DDC pumps with better tops that increase their head pressure than the older ones that have been around for a while. MCP35X and MCP50X. As for D5's, I'd go with the EK D5 G2s. D5 pumps are quieter while having more flow but DDC's are a bit louder while having more head pressure, think of it as static pressure for fans, push through.

MCP50X is the bang for the buck these days. Tough to beat.

Thanks guys for responding, and thanks Jack for those links, although I was thinking I might spend the extra money and go with a D5 for the longevity and lower noise output.

Is there very much in the way of difference in audibles between the DDC and D5? I've been reading that the D5 is silent but I'm not sure if that's just marketing speak? Also, I was looking at the Alhpacool Laing DDC-SilentBox but I'm concerned it's just going to worsen the heat issues and would cause the pump to fail more quickly.

To be honest my money is limited but I'd prefer to spend more for better reliability and longevity. My reason for investing in watercooling is to jump a few hardware cycles and still have the cooling setup for when I finally do upgrade (The new raytracing technology complicates things a little with regard the GPU but that's upgradable separately so that's not too much of a headache).

 

[Silver Surfer]

I'm concerned the second rad is going to be consumed entirely by the CPU overclock, especially if I start feeding it higher voltage, but I'm not experienced in these things so I don't know. I'm hoping there will still be headroom for a GPU.

In most situations there are no issues running a CPU and GPU in the same loop but when it comes to reaching a high overclock on the CPU itself that is already a hot CPU then adding a GPU into that loop setup limits the CPU overclock. You probably will not be able to even maintain the 4.7ghz OC on the 4790K when a GPU is added much less take that CPU OC any higher. The problem comes into play under gaming load conditions when the GPU is seriously under load and it's pouring heat into the loop it will increase the loop temperature until it goes past the stable CPU OC temperature range and crash the system.

Don't forget just because you're water cooling you are still ambient cooling and you are dependent on your ambient environment. More radiators will lower your deltaT on the CPU but no matter the money you spend, you'll never achieve less than a Zero deltaT. So under the circumstances of a CPU already being pushed into it's highest stable operating temperature, adding another heat producer changes everything. If your goal is to push that 4790K even higher run a 2nd loop for the GPU to have the stablest cooling running the CPU that will only vary with CPU usage.

Edit: Regarding delidding the 4790K, if you use anything other than Liquid Metal TIM between the CPU DIE and bottom of the Heat Spreader you are flat wasting your time. Also the 4790K has a dual row of caps beside the DIE so use a thin application of liquid tape to seal those just in case the LM flows over under pressure and relid the CPU using a proper relid tool allowing the required time for the new RTV sealant to set, (clean off all the old sealant). Some have achieved a 10c better load temperature but that is not guaranteed some ended up with worse than they had, it's really down to whether you know what you are doing or not.

2nd Edit: After all the research I have done on the 4790K if I personally was going to overclock that CPU with radiator cooling as far as I could possibly stably push it, I would not be half stepping, I would have bought a stand alone radiator.
http://www.performance-pcs.com/radiators/shopby/radiator-size--1080mm-9x120mm--1260-9x140mm/?
These radiators can either be wall mounted, or side of the case mounted, or with the accessory feet, can completely stand alone.

 

[GenkiM]

In most situations there are no issues running a CPU and GPU in the same loop but when it comes to reaching a high overclock on the CPU itself that is already a hot CPU then adding a GPU into that loop setup limits the CPU overclock...

Thanks for responding.

To be honest I wasn't really expecting to be able to overclock the 4790k as far as I have; I thought it was rare to get one that would operate at such a high multiplier.

Also, I had no idea what it would take to cool one of these things.

I'm looking into the stand-alone radiators now, and it might actually work out cost-effective for me pick one up. It means loosing a little on shipping to send back the Hardware Labs radiators that are due to arrive today, but it seems it might be worth it.

Also, as for the delidding, are you sure it wouldn't be worth doing unless with liquid metal?

I wanted to avoid liquid metal just because it seems so difficult to use.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Also, as for the delidding, are you sure it wouldn't be worth doing unless with liquid metal?

I wanted to avoid liquid metal just because it seems so difficult to use.

Intel used a new thermal compound on the 4790K which was supposed to be better performing than what had been used previously on the 4770K. So it's obviously working pretty good for you to be reaching the 4.7ghz you are now. The 4790K ran a full 5c hotter than the 4770K simply because it was overclocked to 4ghz out of the factory door so that limited the OC headroom of the CPU. If you decide to delid the 4790K you need to use the liquid metal to replace the TIM or you may get worse results than you have right now. If you're going to all the trouble to delid any CPU, why use any TIM less than the best thermal conductance you can get and Liquid Metal is it whether it is made by Cool Laboratory or Grizzly. I use Cool Laboratory Liquid Pro, and I've heard Grizzly Conductonaut is comparable.

What you use is totally up to you but it could come down to having to delid again, and again, until you find what actually works, and continues to work without Delid TIM Pump-Out Effect. You might want to google that term.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

Got to be careful with liquid metal as you don't want it wondering on it's own if you will. I believe it could cause a short if it leaves it's area of purpose.

I think everyone has given great info but we should ask again, what is your ultimate goal? Casual OC'er or hardcore? Average daily driver with a nice OC or looking to break records, etc.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Got to be careful with liquid metal as you don't want it wondering on it's own if you will. I believe it could cause a short if it leaves it's area of purpose.

I think everyone has given great info but we should ask again, what is your ultimate goal? Casual OC'er or hardcore? Average daily driver with a nice OC or looking to break records, etc.

So true, so true!

Liquid metal will definitely cause a direct short if it gets where it shouldn't, and it is also not aluminum friendly.

However handled and applied properly it is great stuff.

I am assuming he is after the highest stable CPU overclock he can get and run daily stable?

If he was looking to break records he would need to go with LN2.

Jacks warning is not to be taken lightly, I strongly suggest anyone desiring to use any of the liquid metal TIMs to thoroughly investigate others use of the product, to understand how it applies and reacts to sudden movement. Also what the user can do to assure it stays where you put it and the best application of it.

It is not like any other TIM you've ever used, it will form a ball directly out of the syringe and actually roll off where you apply it, if the surface is tilted, so definitely don't apply it working over your M/B.

 

[GenkiM]

Intel used a new thermal compound on the 4790K which was supposed to be better performing than what had been used previously on the 4770K. So it's obviously working pretty good for you to be reaching the 4.7ghz you are now. The 4790K ran a full 5c hotter than the 4770K simply because it was overclocked to 4ghz out of the factory door so that limited the OC headroom of the CPU. If you decide to delid the 4790K you need to use the liquid metal to replace the TIM or you may get worse results than you have right now. If you're going to all the trouble to delid any CPU, why use any TIM less than the best thermal conductance you can get and Liquid Metal is it whether it is made by Cool Laboratory or Grizzly. I use Cool Laboratory Liquid Pro, and I've heard Grizzly Conductonaut is comparable.

What you use is totally up to you but it could come down to having to delid again, and again, until you find what actually works, and continues to work without Delid TIM Pump-Out Effect. You might want to google that term.

Thanks, I'm looking into pump-out effect right now.

And yes, I'd looked into liquid meta and its being electrically conductive was one of the things that were stopping me from wanting to use it. That and the fact that it has to be ground off if/when it needs to be replaced and the surfaces prepared before application etc, and the possibility of it forming an insulating layer? It sounds very difficult to use.

Delidding looks relatively easy, in comparison, when using the right kind of delidding tool; much easier to do than using liquid metal looks like it might be, so I thought it would be worth delidding even if not using a liquid metal?

Also, I was going by these results which show a less than one degree difference between liquid metal and Thermal Grizzly Kyronaut under a tourture test? https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thermal-paste-comparison,5108-8.html

For me, the trade off of one degree just seems to be worth it not to have to deal with liquid metal.

Got to be careful with liquid metal as you don't want it wondering on it's own if you will. I believe it could cause a short if it leaves it's area of purpose.

I think everyone has given great info but we should ask again, what is your ultimate goal? Casual OC'er or hardcore? Average daily driver with a nice OC or looking to break records, etc.

My ultimate goal isn't to try and get Prime95 running stable; I'm just not that into prime numbers

I just want it to run games but I'd like to get it as fast as I can. My idea was to spend on water cooling, what I might have spent on a new CPU, to overclock my existing CPU so that I can skip a few CPU generations. That way, when I come to finally upgrade, I'll still have the cooling equipment there to overclock my new chip (although, to be honest, they're all probably going to be second hand bought on eBay once the prices drop).

Also, I would like to add a GPU to the loop and also overclock the GPU which I know is going to add a lot more heat.

I am seriously considering sending back the GTS 280 X-Flows and buying a Watercool MO-RA3 420 PRO and D5 at this point, so that I can add at least one GPU into the loop and keep increasing my overclock.

 

[Silver Surfer]

And yes, I'd looked into liquid metal and its being electrically conductive was one of the things that were stopping me from wanting to use it. That and the fact that it has to be ground off if/when it needs to be replaced and the surfaces prepared before application etc, and the possibility of it forming an insulating layer?

Where did you get that liquid metal could form an insulating layer?

How could metal ever be an insulator?

I've never heard of that before?

Edit: Just for the record I had my own previous misgivings of using liquid metal TIM, but after using it and seeing what it can actually do, I am a firm believer in it's thermal conductive qualities and longevity, or else I would never recommend it.

But I will also say, it is not for everyday Joe!

 

[EarthDog]

thermal conductive properties? Or do you like that it conducts electricity?

 

[Silver Surfer]

thermal conductive properties? Or do you like that it conducts electricity?

Actually I like exactly what I have said about the product, including the warnings!

 

[EarthDog]

I like it all too, just wanted to clarify the last part for the readers.....juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust in case.

 

[GenkiM]

Where did you get that liquid metal could form an insulating layer?

How could metal ever be an insulator?

I've never heard of that before?

Edit: Just for the record I had my own previous misgivings of using liquid metal TIM, but after using it and seeing what it can actually do, I am a firm believer in it's thermal conductive qualities and longevity, or else I would never recommend it.

But I will also say, it is not for everyday Joe!

It's here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thermal-paste-comparison,5108-6.html

Each to their own I guess, but for me I think delidding is still worthwhile, even if you're not going the liquid metal route. Also, I wasn't planning on re-lidding, I have a die guard on its way that attaches to the motherboard to hold the chip in place.

If he was looking to break records he would need to go with LN2.

I'm guessing he meant that as a figure of speech?

 

[Silver Surfer]

It's here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/thermal-paste-comparison,5108-6.html

Well IMO that guy at tomshardware.com is clueless, he said,

since certain ingredients corrode light metals like aluminum and certain alloys. This could have an adverse effect on thermal conductivity, even causing an insulating layer to form.

If you put liquid metal on aluminum you won't get an insulating layer, it will disintegrate the aluminum, 100% destruction guaranteed.

This is what liquid metal does to aluminum.



When I suggested you look at others that had used liquid metal on their delid, I meant actually used it.

 

[GenkiM]

Well IMO that guy at tomshardware.com is clueless, he said,

If you put liquid metal on aluminum you won't get an insulating layer, it will disintegrate the aluminum, 100% destruction guaranteed.

This is what liquid metal does to aluminum [...]

When I suggested you look at others that had used liquid metal on their delid, I meant actually used it.

Well, whether it's true or not, personally I think it's worth the trade off not to have to use liquid metal. It sounds like a lot of trouble for a negligible reduction in temperature.

 

[EarthDog]

As much as this place is named overclockers.com, there is a point, for me, where the amount of risk outweighs the gains. I think this is one of them, particularly for your use case (daily driving as opposed to competitive benchmarking). Running naked, even with a guard is a significant risk....far outweighing a proper metal thermal paste application and relid IMO.

I mean, this MIGHT get you 200 mhz, the delid/relis or running naked process. As long as expectations are set properly and you are good with it....

 

[GTXJackBauer]

As much as this place is named overclockers.com, there is a point, for me, where the amount of risk outweighs the gains. I think this is one of them, particularly for your use case (daily driving as opposed to competitive benchmarking). Running naked, even with a guard is a significant risk....far outweighing a proper metal thermal paste application and relid IMO.

I mean, this MIGHT get you 200 mhz, the delid/relis or running naked process. As long as expectations are set properly and you are good with it....

Bingo! +1

I agree with everything ED has said. If you're looking for daily OC's, it's not and shouldn't be run at the extreme. You will eventually kill off your CPU/GPU. Find an average OC and run with it daily. Delidding is usually good for those pushing to the extreme limits and not worth the risk. A simple custom liquid cooling will fix all of that but of course, your ambient temps are the limiting factor as well as making sure your have an efficient running loop.