Which Pump & CPU Block should I go with?

[GenkiM]

As much as this place is named overclockers.com, there is a point, for me, where the amount of risk outweighs the gains. I think this is one of them, particularly for your use case (daily driving as opposed to competitive benchmarking). Running naked, even with a guard is a significant risk....far outweighing a proper metal thermal paste application and relid IMO.

I mean, this MIGHT get you 200 mhz, the delid/relis or running naked process. As long as expectations are set properly and you are good with it....

200MHz would be fantastic, if my processor could handle it. I mean, that would mean it running at 4.9 GHz on all cores, that would be fantastic.

But I wasn't aware that running without an IHS was such a risk? Surely if the temperatures are bad then the worst case scenario is just having to re-seat the block?

Bingo! +1

I agree with everything ED has said. If you're looking for daily OC's, it's not and shouldn't be run at the extreme. You will eventually kill off your CPU/GPU. Find an average OC and run with it daily. Delidding is usually good for those pushing to the extreme limits and not worth the risk. A simple custom liquid cooling will fix all of that but of course, your ambient temps are the limiting factor as well as making sure your have an efficient running loop.

It's not quite for a daily OC as I have a separate PC for daily, every-day use, so my gaming P.C. will only run when I'm actually gaming. But having said that it probably will get a lot of use and for very long periods at a time; but I think I know what you mean...

...you were saying that a custom loop will fix that? So, if I have a well-designed and well-built custom loop I can run the chips at an extreme overclock and not kill them? I thought that the two things that kill a chip are voltage and heat; so if I can keep both low enough then it should be okay?

My current plan is to run with what I've got here for the moment but to start putting money aside for a Watercool MO-RA3 PRO (I already have fans here that I can use with it, they're not the greatest but they'll do). I'm guessing with that as my radiator I'll be able to push the CPU as high as just the voltage will allow, because the thermals will be taken care of?

 

[GTXJackBauer]

You'll no doubt hit diminishing returns with a radiator that size. lol I have just as much in total in my case.

As for OCing, you can go high when doing extreme benches but you can lower it to your daily settings. What voltages are you looking to pump?

I think you're moving too fast and should slow it all down. Get your basic needs for a loop and start doing more research on your chip and OCing so you can get an idea what voltages are good and what are bad. Yes, high voltage and heat kills electronics period.

 

[GenkiM]

I know, probably, but I'm beginning to think it might be worth the cost, especially since it'll mean I'll be able to run multiple fans at much lower speeds for a much quieter loop. The two GTS 280 X-Flows cost me just over 100, so on a performance to cost basis, they don't seem that great in comparison to an MO-RA3.

But, I began this upgrade path to be ready for Fallout 76, the beta/stress test for which launches in October, so I'm pretty much out of time if I want to be ready for that, and that too is affecting my decision making...

...I'm probably going to stick with the two 280 X-Flows and the Eisbaer for pump and res, and limit the loop to just the CPU and Motherboard, to see how far that'll get me re. the CPU O.C.

I've opted for a delid and re-lid with a custom copper IHS & Liquid Metal (probably Grizzly Cconductonaut, as it seems to have the edge over the competition). I've ordered a RockitCool Copper Upgrade Kit which handles delidding, re-lidding and comes with their custom copper IHS.

Although it's probably not ideal, I am going to stick with the Eisbaer pump/res combo for the time being due to costs, and to see how far it gets me (if after the IHS/TIM upgrade my CPU crashes running Prime95 at 4.8 I don't see much reason to upgrade from the Eisbaer, unless at some point I want to add a GPU into the loop), but that's the loop I'm going to build (my first loop)...

Eisbaer Solo : 280 X-Flow : MB : 280 X-Flow :

If I can get an extra 200 MHz from the re-lid alone plus a little more out of twice the radiator surface area (and the radiators are higher performance than the radiator included with the Eisbaer) than, that should give me headroom to at least get into windows and launch Prime95 at 4.8GHz, if my processor can handle it....if it can, I'll stick at that multiplier for gaming until I can upgrade the loop. Worst case scenario is it works at 4.8 and I upgrade to a MO-RA3 Pro just to find out my CPU can't handle 4.9, but then I guess having the MO-RA3 means I could run it almost silent (with the outlay for better fans (for the moment I'm stuck with my Akasa Vipers which get pretty loud at higher speeds, although with an MO-RA3 that probably wouldn't be an issue)), and would give me an option to add GPU into the loop, which would be pretty cool.

As for voltage (assuming I can, at some point, get a better cooling loop in place) I was thinking of pushing it as high as 1.39 but no higher. 1.4 seems to be the consensus on the threshold at which electromigration will start killing the 4790K, although that figure is probably a point of debate...

...however, for the moment, that's not really an issue as, when I talk about launching Prime95 at the CPU speeds I'm quoting, I mean that I can get it to launch and it runs okay until it switches to the more intensive processing, at which point the temperatures just keep increasing until I have to stop the test. I'm talking about maybe two, three, maybe four minutes of Prime95 until it switches to the intensive calculations...so, nowhere near a full stress test. The cooling I have is just too much of a limiting factor.

 

[Silver Surfer]

@GenkiM

IMO you should have done research on your own before ever posting the 3 threads you have so far, personally everything I know came from initial researching on my own and branched from there building a knowledge base foundation which you do not have, you're suckling from the tits here.

I am not trying to offend you, just stating an obvious fact that is evidenced by the questions you're even asking, just because water cooling guides were written years ago, does not mean they are not still viable today.

Good luck to you!

 

[GTXJackBauer]

I'd work with what you have. If you feel you need more cooling, you can than add more to it. Honestly, a 120.9 outside of crazy overclocking is mainly used to cool off say a CPU and a single or dual GPU setup. It can handle a good load that's for sure and is a better buy if you were to purchase the rads in pieces. You can use quickdisconnects to and from the MORA and PC Case to make things easier as well as having the radiator housing to store the pump/res combo, etc and only needing to feed the fluid to the blocks inside the case. I could go on and on but I think you need to find your sweet spot first in OCing and go from there.

Don't forget, Prime95 isn't something you'd see in real time as you'll basically never run into that kind of heat and energy used unless you're running things like handbrake but gaming wise, you're good to go out of the box stock. For me, it's all about gaming, cooler temps and quiet operations. I don't care about OCing too much even though I have a comfy 4.4 Ghz OC on my CPU which is considered the norm. If you do decide to go hardcore OCing, just remember to have back up components or another PC you can use if your main is down.

 

[GenkiM]

@GenkiM

IMO you should have done research on your own before ever posting the 3 threads you have so far, personally everything I know came from initial researching on my own and branched from there building a knowledge base foundation which you do not have, you're suckling from the tits here.

I am not trying to offend you, just stating an obvious fact that is evidenced by the questions you're even asking, just because water cooling guides were written years ago, does not mean they are not still viable today.

Good luck to you!

Okay friend, I've added you to my ignore list. I will no longer be able to see your posts. I suggest you do the same with me; that way I won't be able to irritate you with my presence.

Please understand that, now that you're on my ignore list, should you post, I won't be able to see what you've written.

I'd work with what you have. If you feel you need more cooling, you can than add more to it. Honestly, a 120.9 outside of crazy overclocking is mainly used to cool off say a CPU and a single or dual GPU setup. It can handle a good load that's for sure and is a better buy if you were to purchase the rads in pieces. You can use quickdisconnects to and from the MORA and PC Case to make things easier as well as having the radiator housing to store the pump/res combo, etc and only needing to feed the fluid to the blocks inside the case. I could go on and on but I think you need to find your sweet spot first in OCing and go from there.

Don't forget, Prime95 isn't something you'd see in real time as you'll basically never run into that kind of heat and energy used unless you're running things like handbrake but gaming wise, you're good to go out of the box stock. For me, it's all about gaming, cooler temps and quiet operations. I don't care about OCing too much even though I have a comfy 4.4 Ghz OC on my CPU which is considered the norm. If you do decide to go hardcore OCing, just remember to have back up components or another PC you can use if your main is down.

Thanks so much, I do have a second P.C., for general use, that I'm using right now. My gaming rig is partially disassembled in the lounge.

Really and truly, for me it's about extending the longevity of my components, so that I can stay up to speed without paying the huge premiums on the new hardware, which I can't really afford. Investing money into a cooling loop seems like a good way to go as it should (I'm hoping) last longer than a two or three CPU cycles.

But yeah, I think I'm going to stick with what I have for the moment and maybe put some money aside for an MO-RA4 (potentially hitting in 2020) hinted at in the Watercoool Hardware Rep thread. I'll see how I go with the Eisbaer and take things from there.

 

[EarthDog]

200 Mhz isn't going to be a make or break on a system or make it last a year or so longer.

If I was you, I would put that money away for a more significant system upgrade. A better GPU on your current CPU will yield a longer life system... much more than 200 Mhz in additional overclocking headroom.

I also note you would like to SLI... but I ask why? Are you moving to a higher resolution? What resolution do you play games?


I know this about your pump and CPU block but I(we) want to make sure the forest is seen through the trees and you are putting the resources into the right parts to reach your goal. If you are at 2560x1440 or going to 4K, that CPU will matter very little (and those extra 200 Mhz). But a gaming machine with a 4790K at 4.6 GHz and a GTX 1080 will last longer than a 4.8 GHz 4790K and a GTX 970. I would also stay away from SLI, especially if you are at 2560x1440 due to the RAM on that card (remember there is 3.5 GB of 'fast' RAM and the other is slow - the higher the resolution and settings, the more ram used. Some modern titles can easily eclipse 3.5 GB of RAM use and that requirement/use will only get higher as time goes on.

Anyway, I know this isn't the place, but just wanted to plant a seed of thought for the BIG picture before we go (deeper) down a water cooling hole that likely won't yield the best results for the money. I mean for the price of a 970 and a couple hundred bucks (what you will have on watercooling anyway) you can get a used GTX 1080 which smokes a 980, has more vRAM and uses less power.

Anyway, I digress on that point.

 

[GenkiM]

Thanks, I do tend to get a little tunnel visioned with this stuff.

The reason I was going to SLI the 970's is that they're dropping in price currently and I already have one that has a closed loop GPU cooler fitted to it, so SLI heat issues shouldn't be a problem, and I thought going SLI with 970's would give me a pretty nice performance boost for relatively little cost and keep me going until the prices drop on some of the more powerful graphics cards.

As for overclocking the CPU, I basically want to keep it as viable a solution as I can for as long as possible, so, the more lifespan I can squeeze out of it through overclocking the better.

My idea was to invest in watercooling equipment so that it's always there for me to repeat the process with other CPU's. To do that I should probably have opted for something like a MO-RA straight from the word go, but I think starting a little smaller and trying to explore the limits of what I already have here would probably be a good way to get accustomed to it all, plus I wont have to wait as long for the upgrade.

Plus, if I went with a MO-RA I'd definitely need a more powerful pump and I'm still hoping I'm going to be able to get away with just using the Eisbaer, although to be honest I'm tempted to pick up a DDC, mainly because I'm probably going to need one eventually and I'm worried I'm going to go through the whole process of building a loop to find that the Eisbaer's pump isn't strong enough to power it. I guess it's just one of those things where you have to go into it with the knowledge that it may not work out and manage expectations accordingly.

Edit: I guess, in addition to all of that, I kind of like tinkering with my P.C. too, so there's value in the process for that reason also?


Edit: Also, I retro game and there are still a lot of P.C. titles I've not played yet that my system's pretty much good for.

I've been working with Fallout 4 to try and prepare for Fallout 76 (76 is based on the same tech) and it seems FO4 is one title where RAM speed actually matters, and a faster processor and faster RAM speed can actually make the difference between slowdown, stuttering and smooth gameplay. I've managed to get it running smoothly by upgrading to faster RAM and O.C.'ing the CPU.

But yeah, that's a specific use case that I've found and I'm using it as a test case for fine tuning my rig to to play at least the games I've missed so far (quite a few).

Not sure how Fallout 76 is going to run or how well optimised it'll be. The official system requirements still haven't been released and the server stress test / beta doesn't launch until probably around mid October for P.C. (as I understand it they're putting the XBox players online first and after that it's anyone's guess).

I'm hoping I'll be in good shape for Fallout 76 with an overclock and the faster RAM and if it's anything like FO4 I'm hoping I should be good to go. If I need more GPU power, then I'll fit a second GTX 970; just fingers crossed it doesn't need more than 3.5 Gig of V-RAM to run at medium to maximum settings.

 

[Mr.Scott]

I wouldn't add anything onto the AIO you're using now until you change that pump out. It is most definitely the weak link.

OT- Can't believe you blocked Silver Surfer. He's one of the most knowledgeable WC guys there is.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

If you were running into stuttering issues it could a few things. You were maxed out on VRAM as ED already pointed too, throttling because your temps were high, drivers needed to be updated and or yes it's possible, your system RAM was maxed but that rarely happens as most have more than enough. It's usually hitting max VRAM capacity. I use a GTX 780 Classified Hydro Copper with 3 GB of VRAM. Let's just say, before i got my 1440p 144hz screen, I was using a 1080p 60hz screen which would hit VRAM cap on some AAA titles with some of the bell's and whistles.

I agree that you should probably upgrade your GPU but what is your resolution and hz you're gaming on? Not sure if I missed that or not. Your CPU and everything else seems fine. Better yet, give us a run down list of your PC with more info on your gaming screen.

 

[GenkiM]

OT- Can't believe you blocked Silver Surfer. He's one of the most knowledgeable WC guys there is.

Be that as it may, and I've no idea about that as I've just arrived, I can do without the derision, disdain and disgust; if that's the price of the advice he could potentially offer me, I'm not buying. Part of the reason I like these kinds of forums is for the social interaction, by way of discussion, and the vibe I'm getting from him is decidedly anti-social. Who knows, maybe he just doesn't like me for some reason; he stated he doesn't think I should have posted, but either way I can do without it.

But now that's out of the way...

I wouldn't add anything onto the AIO you're using now until you change that pump out. It is most definitely the weak link.

I know; that's something I'm really going back and forth on. I'm thinking that upgrading the existing radiator to one X-flow, that has a lower restriction than the current radiator, should be fine, and running it through the MB chipset radiator in addition, should probably be okay? ...but to run it through a second x-flow would mean more restriction, and I'd need to mount it to the inside of my side panel, which would require another meter of tubing with a greater weight of fluid, plus some vertical stretches of tubing.

Also, I want to get a fan on the electronics around the CPU socket, and the size of the Eisbaer is preventing me from doing that. If I buy a stronger pump I can put some 90 degree fittings on the CPU block which would help in that, as it would get the tubing out of the way.

It's going to turn out a little more expensive than I was anticipating but I guess watercooling was never going to be cheap. :/

If you were running into stuttering issues it could a few things. You were maxed out on VRAM as ED already pointed too, throttling because your temps were high, drivers needed to be updated and or yes it's possible, your system RAM was maxed but that rarely happens as most have more than enough. It's usually hitting max VRAM capacity. I use a GTX 780 Classified Hydro Copper with 3 GB of VRAM. Let's just say, before i got my 1440p 144hz screen, I was using a 1080p 60hz screen which would hit VRAM cap on some AAA titles with some of the bell's and whistles.

I agree that you should probably upgrade your GPU but what is your resolution and hz you're gaming on? Not sure if I missed that or not. Your CPU and everything else seems fine. Better yet, give us a run down list of your PC with more info on your gaming screen.

Sorry, I forgot to include that: I'm on a 1080p panel at 60Hz. My next panel upgrade I'm hoping to move to a monitor that supports nVidia 3D, although I've not looked at those for some time so I'm not sure what the market for those is like now.

It could be the RAM that's holding me back as it does seem to hover at around 3.5 gig usage; I was assuming that it would have used all of the RAM if it were bottoming out but I guess it might just be avoiding use of the slower RAM entirely?

Re. the performance issues, to be honest I had actually posted at the FO4 forums to try and resolve those and it turned out to be a bit of a mystery. One of the problems I was having is I can't seem to get 100% utilisation of the GPU, it just hovers at around 70 to 80%. The best information I could find, or that people could give me, was that the CPU was the bottleneck. While I was looking for a solution I also found out that Fallout 4 was one of the very few games that actually benefited from higher RAM speeds, so I took the plunge and bought a new motherboard and faster RAM so that I could build a dedicated gaming PC with better overclocking potential. Shortly after that I bought the Eisbaer and that's what's brought me here...

...overclocking and the faster system RAM did help a lot in smoothing out the performance, but I'm still not getting 100% on the GPU. I've no idea why, although the more I think about it the more I think it could very well be because of the 3.5 fast VRAM limit.

I'm reluctant to post my specs as I don't want to send you guys on a wild goose chase, which I think trying to troubleshoot my system would probably be, but here they are...

Mobo: MSI Z97 MPOWER MAX AC
CPU: i7 4790k
RAM: Klevv Genuine 2x8GB 2666MHz DDR3
Storage: Samsung 950 PRO M.2
PSU: EVGA SuperNOVA 850 T2
GPU: Gigabyte GTX 970 G1 Gaming
Display: 1080p 60Hz

I can get the GPU to 100% in Unigine Valley, and I've got a closed loop water cooler on the GPU, so I don't think temps are the problem? FO4 is a notoriously poorly optimised game however, so it may just be that.

As for what wrinkle in my system is stopping me from getting the GPU to maximum, if I had to guess, I'd have to say it's the GPU and the V-RAM, because everything else seems okay.

Either that or I just maybe need DDR4 RAM and a faster processor, but having said that, none of my current hardware seems to be maxing out while running the game; although getting a read on the CPU has been tricky because FO4 doesn't use all cores and there was an issue around the Performance tab of Windows Task Manager not showing overclocks or boost speeds. Half the people posting about it complained CPU boost wasn't showing up and half were complaining they were getting readings in excess of 100% because of CPU boost, so...the whole thing is a confusing mess. I did end up using a dedicated monitoring tool developed for Fallout and it just gave me similar results to those I got from Task Manager.

But yeah, for the moment I'm going to run the system as it is and see how things go with Fallout 76, but I'm almost definitely going to swap the pump out when I finally get around to upgrading the loop.

P.S. I know at this point this thread is more or less completely off topic but I personally don't mind, because it's helping me think my way around this problem. I'm just not sure there's a finite/optimal solution to this problem, and I feel like I've hit the point of diminishing returns trying to chase down a solution to this and I don't want drag you guys down this particular rabbit hole with me. :/

Maybe a better way of going about this would be to go the route that's becoming more common on more general P.C. enthusiast sites, where people just post saying "This is my budget, build me a rig" and then all of the forum members set about discussing the ideal build for the given budget.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

If you can't get the GPU to 100% no matter what you throw at it, all probabilities point to a CPU bottleneck. Now since you ran a benchmark at 100%, it's safe to say you don't have a CPU bottleneck for one, especially with that CPU as it isn't ridiculously old. You still have several years to go on it unless you jump to 4K 144hz+ gaming (possibly).

When playing some of those AAA game titles, they can become demanding even in the oddest areas like the PC RAM, oddly enough. Maybe it's a bug, I'm not sure. Regardless, since you game on a 1080p 60hz screen, I think the 970 fits the bill tbh but yeah, if it had say 8GB of VRAM like the GPU's after it, sure it would suffice anything you throw at it, especially at 1080p 60hz but to be honest, I don't think you need more at that resolution unless you set the settings to ultra would be the only reason to look for a GPU with more VRAM. The issue here is, if you get a GPU that is too powerful, you will bottleneck the CPU so all it comes down to is finding the right match, that includes if you're looking to upgrade your screen to a gaming 1080p higher hz rate, 1440p or 4K both Gsync and 144hz but dependent on size, these screens can start anywhere from $350 all the way to $2000, I know nuts.

I think it's probably best to see what temps you get while gaming. If you're not throttling, you'll want to see what components do you need to upgrade from, primarily the GPU and possibly a screen if budget permits. Once you know what you're dead set on with the components, you than can venture into the custom cooling arena to see what needs to be cooled off as you don't want to underestimate or overestimate (most of don't mind that part LOL) as it could get costly.

Figure it out and let us know what you're looking to do. If you want to talk about gaming screens, let's have at it and what your budget will be, same goes for GPUs, etc. so than you can see what you'll need in the liquid cooling aspect.

Maybe a better way of going about this would be to go the route that's becoming more common on more general P.C. enthusiast sites, where people just post saying "This is my budget, build me a rig" and then all of the forum members set about discussing the ideal build for the given budget.

Sorry but I would have given a similar response as Silver if not worse lol and I have over the years when folks who really don't do research come with the 'gimme mentality' and want us to do all their homework. In this case, this is completely different because you came with something and have tried. I think Silver didn't mean to disrespect you or upset you. He's the older old school type iirc. Nonetheless, we know when someone doesn't try or hard enough. We'll usually steer them in the right direction but if that doesn't give, well that's basically the end. lol

 

[GenkiM]

Thanks

Do you know offhand which is the fastest GPU I can run with my CPU/RAM (4790k & 2666MHz DDR3) setup before the CPU/RAM becomes a bottleneck?

I'm guessing my next upgrade (watercooling aside) will be a monitor, and I love 3D, so it'll have to be 3D capable and ideally with G-Synch, so (and I've only run a very brief search) I'm guessing I'm going to have to spend around £200 for 1080p or around £400 for 1440

So, putting aside water cooling for the moment, I guess my next most sensible upgrade would be GPU and Monitor

Do you know offhand which GPU's my CPU/RAM limits me to?

Edit: I'm going to run some searches for that info now but if you could advise me it would be much appreciated.

 

[GTXJackBauer]

It's all dependent on demand and screen. If I were to take my old 19" Sony Trinitron and dump my resolution lower than 720p, I will most likely bottleneck my CPU. Better yet, you could test that on your own PC right now and you'll never see your GPU hit 100% when you hit those lower resolutions but your CPU should be a different story.

Have you even checked what framerates you're getting while gaming? You very well could be capping at 60 FPS since you're at 60 hz even though your VRAM usage might be high. You can lessen that by turning down a few settings like AA for eye candy.

As for those screens, I use the exact same screen from that Dell but in 27".

 

[GenkiM]

The only game I've really had any reason to try and troubleshoot/tweak with regards frame-rate and performance is Fallout 4, and that's capped at 60fps. You can hack it to enable faster rates but a lot of the physics and character behaviours are tied to the frame rate so doing that is not ideal. Also, my monitor is also limited to just 60fps. I have an IPS that runs a little faster but that's in storage at the moment.

In the most demanding areas of Fallout 4 I've managed, through upgrading and overclocking, to go from a stuttering 40 frames per second, that felt as though it were sub 30fps because of the terrible stuttering, to a smooth frame rate that only dips very slightly in the most demanding areas. That's with it modded with Natural Atmospheric Commenwealth (NAC) and the NAC enhancer ENB, and (more or less) everything set to Ultra.

I've run a quick search but not been able to find information on whether or not the 4790k would be a bottleneck if driving a 3d monitor. It looks like quite a specific question that's probably not commonly asked; I know most people don't particularly care about 3D.

General answers with regards the 4790k is that if overclocked it's good for anything up to a 1080ti.

EDIT: Also found a reddit thread where it's being discussed that it'll also support an RTX 2080.

 

[Silver Surfer]

Be that as it may, and I've no idea about that as I've just arrived, I can do without the derision, disdain and disgust; if that's the price of the advice he could potentially offer me, I'm not buying. Part of the reason I like these kinds of forums is for the social interaction, by way of discussion, and the vibe I'm getting from him is decidedly anti-social. Who knows, maybe he just doesn't like me for some reason; he stated he doesn't think I should have posted, but either way I can do without it.

But now that's out of the way...

I plainly told you I meant no offense but since you are ignoring me now that's OK.

I understand as a newbie you may possibly expect others to take you by the hand and walk you through life.

Simply because you are dealing with confusing stuff when it comes to making a decision on buying a computer water cooling component.

The same questions you've asked here, are the exact same questions we've all asked ourselves after reading all the available information on the net, including the guides, and then heaven help us, we had to actually decide for ourselves, which components to buy.

Maybe I came off super offensive?

That may very well be because I am sick of all this politically correct crap going on in this world today!

Someone says the wrong word and their entire career is crucified over it.

What I've said to you however is to get you to think for yourself!

Which unfortunately seems to be happening less and less these days, people actually thinking for themselves.

We see the majority all wanting a quick fix even when it comes to overclocking their computers, just give me the settings so I can be on my way.

No research, and no effort on your part, means in the long run you learn absolutely nothing, and when it all goes south, you're back here crying help me, help me, with not a clue as to how to fix it yourself.

I did not post the information to hurt you, but to help you, but unfortunately somehow you completely missed that.

As it's been said of me, Yes I am Old School, and proud of it.

Remember: Since I am being ignored, I did not write this for you, but it's for the rest of my fellow water coolers that I know full well completely understand exactly what I am saying.

I think you got off good!