• Welcome to Overclockers Forums! Join us to reply in threads, receive reduced ads, and to customize your site experience!

Its time to expect more from AGP's!

Overclockers is supported by our readers. When you click a link to make a purchase, we may earn a commission. Learn More.

sappo

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Location
guam
Why are Agp's still clocked at 66mhz? And why dont motherboards allow you to keep everything else in spec but the AGP bus like the good ol' BX ones?

Is it even possible to for todays motherboard manufacturers to install the necessary dividors? Another limiting factor would be if cards could hit bus speeds of 87mhz+, but if the cards used on BX boards were any indication, there should be no problem with today's cards hitting those speeds.
 
The Bus speed of AGP has increased...sort of...2x, 4x and now 8x AGP. Same thing has happened with CPUs, and Memory...they still run at 100 and 133mhz FSB...but with greater value multipliers.

I don't quite follow you on how everything can be kept in spec except for AGP...when everything is in spec so too will the AGP be in spec...

There are some Intel boards and I believe also the SiS648 chipset that have AGP/PCI lock available.
 
Actually isn't the speed of the AGP bus getting to be somewhat unneeded?...with 128meg memory and fast GPUs on Videocards these days they are becoming less dependant upon the CPU and Memory to help out. Not like in old days when cards only had 4meg of video and had to share more system resources.

Wasn't that the whole purpose of the AGP bus...to separate the graphics from the PCI and to have direct access to CPU and Memory?
 
The Bus speed of AGP has increased...sort of...2x, 4x and now 8x AGP. Same thing has happened with CPUs, and Memory...they still run at 100 and 133mhz FSB...but with greater value multipliers.

I don't quite follow you on how everything can be kept in spec except for AGP...when everything is in spec so too will the AGP be in spec...

To be honest, Im not quite sure what the difference between AGP 2x,4x,8x is. But check this out. http://www.firingsquad.com... The BX chipset is agp 2x running at 89mhz (133 with a 2/3 multiplier) and the intel 815 is 4x, but the BX is clearly faster. What's more, everything is IN SPEC on the BX board except the AGP bus (89mhz). My question is, why cant today's boards overclock the AGP but leave everything else in spec? Also what is the difference between 2x/4x/8x was when refering to AGP, and why would a 89mhz/2x AGP clean up on a 66mhz/4x AGP.
 
I feel the 89/2x beat out the 66/4x mostly because it was a more "mature" AGP and that the first implementations of 4x were of little to no benefit. Today there is more of a benefit of 4x over 2x with better drivers and chipsets, although still, not much.

Even in the article they said that quote: "Today's video cards now feature 32MB and 64MB of onboard memory, greatly marginalizing the need for high AGP transfer speeds".

Also, today's GF4s are more finicky about running out of AGP spec than the old GF2s...I wonder if it has anything to do with EMI interference?...I dunno...just rambling. Thus the need for keeping your AGP as close to 66 as possible...for the Card's sake...not the mobo.

Also, isn't the bottleneck mostly in the memory of the videocard and not the transfer of info over the AGP bus? Having more bandwidth is all fine and good, but it appears that capacity is currently exceeding volume. We'll have to wait for DOOM3 with its 80mb+ of textures to really start things cooking.
 
spec sheet one-upsmanship

sappo said:


To be honest, Im not quite sure what the difference between AGP 2x,4x,8x is. But check this out. http://www.firingsquad.com... The BX chipset is agp 2x running at 89mhz (133 with a 2/3 multiplier) and the intel 815 is 4x, but the BX is clearly faster. What's more, everything is IN SPEC on the BX board except the AGP bus (89mhz). My question is, why cant today's boards overclock the AGP but leave everything else in spec? Also what is the difference between 2x/4x/8x was when refering to AGP, and why would a 89mhz/2x AGP clean up on a 66mhz/4x AGP.

You have to look beyond simplistic numbers when evaluating complex systems. BX does not clean up on i815 simply because of the speed the AGP bus runs at, there are many more factors than this. BX is just a better chipset than i815, and it possessed a similar edge over all its period rivals.

Just because 4 is bigger than 2 doesn't really mean anything. BX has superior memory performance that allows it eclipse the performance delivered by it's rivals. Looking at any one spec or rating and blaming the difference in real world performance on this is pure folly.

The truth is even just 2x AGP is plenty fast. 4x AGP brings a tiny improvement to even today's cutting edge systems. AGP 8x is unneeded, but is being pushed by the chipset manufacturerers because last years products had 4x. They just love to point to their new products and say "we have 8X!". Unfortunately the graphics card manufacturers are adding this useless capability to their cards in order to appear modern and worthwhile. In truth even dropping back to 2x AGP rates has little impact on performance.

If the chipset and/or card you desire happens to implement 8x AGP, so be it. If not don't worry about. 4x AGP, even at 66MHz, has plenty of bandwidth for current and near-future needs.

AGP was actually created by Intel as a smoke show to make K6 platforms seem behind the times. Same motivation as the introduction of 8x AGP, to make the competition look dated. When the K6 was introduced it made quick work of the P-MMX chips and rivaled the vastly more expensive P2's. AGP was created under the auspices of allowing the graphics card fast access to system ram, rather than relying on the local fram buffer on the video card. Since K6's did not run on the 440LX chipset which was the only AGP alternative for some time, it was just marketing material designed to make K6's look second rate, not employing the most up to date technology. The fact was you could run the PCI, AGP, or AGP 2X versions of any graphics card of that era and measure no meaningful performance variance.

Since ram has gotten very cheap AGP as a texturing buffer is next to obsolete. It is a simple matter to place enough memory on the video card to eliminate any substantial degree of AGP texturing. The only real world benefit of AGP is the increased bus speed over PCI, and 2x-4x AGP rates do produce better performance now, unlike when AGP was introduced many years ago. 8x simply won't be needed for some time, just like AGP 4X wasn't needed when VIA pushed this spec sheet one upmanship on the buying public in the 694 family years ago. 3 years later AGP 4x is just starting to earn its keep, and in similar fashion it will be several more years before AGP 8x is really useful.
 
Just wait for Serial AGP, 5x the bandwidth of AGP 8x.

Its 66MHz x 8 bit path x 8x multiplier, which offers 2GB/s bandwidth.
 
syntax_error said:
Actually isn't the speed of the AGP bus getting to be somewhat unneeded?...with 128meg memory and fast GPUs on Videocards these days they are becoming less dependant upon the CPU and Memory to help out.

Not yet....there are tons of test to show that the video card speed and memory can still be the weak link. Especially at higher resolutions....that 128MB of onboard memory runs out quick and information is again cached to the main system memory. Other things like 4AA and such will tax the card a ton too.
 
Wait till nforce2 comes out! From what I read you can over clock the agp, cpu, and memory fsb's independently. I cant wait
 
true, to a degree

slipknot said:


Not yet....there are tons of test to show that the video card speed and memory can still be the weak link. Especially at higher resolutions....that 128MB of onboard memory runs out quick and information is again cached to the main system memory. Other things like 4AA and such will tax the card a ton too.

It is true it is possible to overflow the 128mb frame buffer of modern cards if the goal is to do so. But in reality the performance hit is so crippling when AGP texturing takes place that unplayable frame rates result, whether the AGP operates at 2x, 4x, or 8x. It's a nice idea, but in reality you need to select settings that allow the local frame buffer to bear the load if you want to have a level of performance we associate with modern cards like the 8500 and the GF4.
 
jreinsma said:
Wait till nforce2 comes out! From what I read you can over clock the agp, cpu, and memory fsb's independently. I cant wait

I'm able to control my FSB, AGP, PCI and Memory speeds independantly...a few other SiS boards also offer various ratios to run at already...some Intel Chipsetted boards have AGP/PCI lock along with the asyncronous DDR Memory speeds and a few VIA boards have already offered HCLK+33mhz asyncronous memory options.

It all boils down to the BIOS options that each manufactuer sees fit to enable.
 
Back