m.2 questions... lots of questions.

[Max0r]

Sentential you sound like a hardcore SSD guy so I'm definitely going to take that stuff into consideration. Looks like my Evo is going to be sitting under my Dark Rock TopFlow, depending on if I get a nice undervolted 120x38 high speed on there I wonder how much cooling it will get without some kind of heatsink. I should remove the sticker on top right?

 

[Sentential]

Sentential you sound like a hardcore SSD guy so I'm definitely going to take that stuff into consideration. Looks like my Evo is going to be sitting under my Dark Rock TopFlow, depending on if I get a nice undervolted 120x38 high speed on there I wonder how much cooling it will get without some kind of heatsink. I should remove the sticker on top right?

The stickers actually have copper embedded into them if you can believe that so I'd use a non-adhesive thermal pad over top of it rather than remove it. Given the likely warranty issues I would resist taking off any kind of markings that would void it. NVME drive are just too new to know how reliable they are going to be so this is one occasion where I wouldn't void the warranty. This is the route I am taking:

https://www.amazon.com/SilverStone-...qid=1502478363&sr=8-1&keywords=m2+thermal+pad

I'm going to use a pretty high grade thermal pad (this seems good enough) and sandwich one beneath the drive leaving the top exposed as it has a large copper cooling plate beneath the keyboard to cool the M2 drives. Sadly I cant use a heatsink on the top side without removing or damaging the sticker as I have nothing to bolt it to and the official top-spreader is out of stock with Dell . Fortunately since these are not flip chips most of the heat should be on the PCB side so I should be OK. If I were on a desktop I'd use this for sure:

https://www.ekwb.com/shop/water-blocks/ssd-blocks/m2-heatsinks

I would use something like this and not use anything sticky that would damage the stickers/markings but I would use a soft non-sticky thermal pad and put them over the stickers (since they have copper in them). If you cant fit something like that you might want to consider moving it to an actual PCI-E slot rather than the M2 dedicated for the motherboard and use an adapter like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Express-NGFF...F8&qid=1502478797&sr=8-3&keywords=m2+heatsink

Given what I have read and know there is no way I would run an EVO, Phision or XG3 without heavy cooling. If cooling is a concern stick to SATA (which I'm doing) or use a low power NVME like Intel's 600P and wait for the 3rd generation NVME controllers like the XG5 which should run much much cooler.

EDIT:
http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/samsung-960-evo-m-2-1tb-nvme-ssd-review,7.html

This is why NVME drives need cooling ^^

Under extreme workloads, some users may have suffered from performance drops due to heat generation issues with M.2 NVMe SSDs such as the 950 PRO, which provide high performance on a small form-factor. The 960 EVO, just like the 960 PRO, adopts a heat spreading label to dissipate heat more efficiently during heavy workloads. It achieves this by integrating a thin copper film, and because copper is a great heat conductor it helps to shed heat faster than would be possible without label. The dynamic thermal guard (DTG) trigger point is delayed by 16 seconds relative to the 950 PRO.
This translates to 60% more data transferred before DTG or 253GB during sequential read. Users can therefore use their 960 EVO more freely and without worrying about performance degradation. Furthermore, many users may run benchmark tests such as ATTO disk benchmark to check for performance degradation during various test condition. The 960 EVO shows better performance under various workloads.

 

[batboy]

Thank you sir, for your dissertation. I have a new motherboard ordered, Asus X299 TUF II. It has a large heatsink over the m.2 drive and as near as I can determine there is an optional fan available too.

With x4 PCI Express 3.0/2.0 bandwidth, TUF X299 Mark 2's dual M.2 supports up to 32Gbps data-transfer speeds.

I'm looking at the specs and it says: 1 x M.2 x4 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode) and
1 x M.2 x4 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280 storage devices support (PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode).

You don't like the Sammy EVO? I waffled back and forth finally decided to go whole hog and got the 960 Pro.

 

[Sentential]

Thank you sir, for your dissertation. I have a new motherboard ordered, Asus X299 TUF II. It has a large heatsink over the m.2 drive and as near as I can determine there is an optional fan available too.

With x4 PCI Express 3.0/2.0 bandwidth, TUF X299 Mark 2's dual M.2 supports up to 32Gbps data-transfer speeds.

I'm looking at the specs and it says: 1 x M.2 x4 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280/22110 storage devices support (SATA & PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode) and
1 x M.2 x4 Socket 3, with M key, type 2242/2260/2280 storage devices support (PCIE 3.0 x 4 mode).

You don't like the Sammy EVO? I waffled back and forth finally decided to go whole hog and got the 960 Pro.

Yea your board should be just fine, it supports M key which is A+B (shaped like an M) and PCI-E which is NVME. As I said before you'll want the optional fan, given you've got some flexibility here you may be able to use thermal paste on the controller rather than a pad but you definitely need something. You might want to investigate whether pads are included with your M2 cooler or not. If not I'd order them now and a fan pointed at it would be a good idea.

Yea I'm not a fan of the EVO at all you're right. Here's how I break it down why I don't like it:

What advantage does the PRO/EVO have other other drives?
Well it has the fastest read/write....on paper. Once the SLC cache is exhausted it's no faster than cheaper Phision Drives like the MyDigitalSSDs or Patriot Hellfire. Nor is it faster than Toshiba based drives like the RD400 or the XG3. Why? Because once their SLC cache is gone they are writing to planar MLC which is faster than V-NAND TLC. Samsung has a better controller sure but it's not THAT much better plus the endurance of TLC is a well known issue. Intel just got raked over the coals for their joint-Micron TLC NAND for failing during stress testing and falling FAR short of it's rated endurance. Now once you step up to the Pro you're back on MLC and yes it is the fastest M2 drive money can buy.

So you're options are (granted these are prices as of 8/11/17)
$155 Ebay Toshiba 512GB XG3 (MLC) which while hot as ****, hotter than Samsung which says alot can be managed with really aggressive cooling
$350 Amazon Intel 1TB 600p (TLC) awful stuff but it's dirt cheap and draws far less power than traditional drives (considered purchasing)
$179 480GB MyDigitalSSD BPX Phision 512GB (MLC) drivers aren't great but it's cheap, fast and has great endurance. Plus this one's a flipchip which means you can directly cool the controller and make 100% sure it'll never throttle under any condition. To top it all off it has a large amount of overprovisioning. It can be argued that this is the #2 drive to buy behind the PRO
$277 Samsung 960PRO Polaris 500GB (V-MLC) best drive money can buy and you're paying for it but it's the 2nd hottest drive available (tosh being #1)
-OR-
$210 for a Samsung 960EVO Polaris (V-TLC) $60 more gets you a drive that will last twice as long and has almost double the SLC cache, no brainer.



-EDIT

God I completely forgot this, the main reason why the EVO is bad other than what I've said is that there is NO over-provisioning. Meaning the moment you get a bad cell on the drive it's toast. Again, high failure probability plus no room for any kind failure should one occur.

 

[EarthDog]

The Evo sucks plain and simple and should be avoided. I'd rather take my chances on an XG3 with slower speeds then having a catastrophic failure tons of information showing that TLC's endurance is no where near advertised.

I wouldn't either (a 3 generations old SSD like the Samsung 840 - and its not M.2 like the OP wants/who we are taking care of), however I wouldn't say that for every based TLC drive either. The 840 worked well past its rating, no? It also said that problems started happening at the 300TBW mark, 100TBW or 50% more than its rated for...

Clear evidence of flash wear appeared after 200TB of writes, when the Samsung 840 Series started logging reallocated sectors. As the only TLC candidate in the bunch, this drive was expected to show the first cracks. The 840 Series didn't encounter actual problems until 300TB, when it failed a hash check during the setup for an unpowered data retention test. The drive went on to pass that test and continue writing, but it recorded a rash of uncorrectable errors around the same time.

Again, in general I agree, just with a more tempered opinion on TLC. The bottom line is, and has been for generations (outside of a dud or two) that writes aren't an issue. My only point.

 

[Sentential]

I wouldn't either (a 3 generations old SSD like the Samsung 840 - and its not M.2 like the OP wants/who we are taking care of), however I wouldn't say that for every based TLC drive either. The 840 worked well past its rating, no? It also said that problems started happening at the 300TBW mark, 100TBW or 50% more than its rated for...



Again, in general I agree, just with a more tempered opinion on TLC. The bottom line is, and has been for generations (outside of a dud or two) that writes aren't an issue. My only point.

All fair points so I guess I'll clarify TLC in itself isn't bad and serves a purpose, the decision of many TLC drives to not use over-provisioning is stupid and people shouldn't buy them. You're right

 

[Nebulous]

My PNY NVMe drive uses a Phison chip and let me say this thing is HEATER! Stereo555 also has the same drive and his runs alot hotter. Way beyond safe operating temps which is 80c I saw a post somewhere (can't remember exactly) that the person added a heatsink with thermal pads and zipties to cool his NVMe M2 drive with really good results.

Stereo555 and i came up with more or less the same idea, but using a heatsink from DDR cooling from back in the day. We used a thermal pad 1.0mm thick and the sink along with zipties. I added a 60mm fan to mine as well. The rest can be explained here with pics and results:

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php/783352-Cooling-a-HOT-M2-NVMe-drive

Thermal pad here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UYTTXSM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[EarthDog]

All fair points so I guess I'll clarify TLC in itself isn't bad and serves a purpose, the decision of many TLC drives to not use over-provisioning is stupid and people shouldn't buy them. You're right

I dont feel more smarterererer than others, I am not smarterererere than others...

... always have a reliable back up and restoration plan.

(Sorry, I'm an enterprise/data center/DR guy... )

 

[TimoneX]

Fairly short order???? It took 2.5PTB written to kill the drives longest lasting drives. That is 24/7/547(18 months in days) of writes to do so. Some were less, in the several hundred TBW range, but, i dont imagine 1 in 10,00 users of an ssd need to worry about writes.

http://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead

Are you one in 1000+ that writes dozens of GB a day every day? What are you doing?

Simple. Video editing. Thanks for the link. It's rather dated and I recognize a couple of those drives that I've either owned or own now...some are MLC based and won't die nearly as quickly even with hammering. I still maintain that for anyone doing frequent sequential writes, drives like the 960EVO should be avoided. Wear leveling works fine and most probably won't have an issue, but then most don't transfer 200GBs of data back and forth a day either. I for one keep hardware around until it keels over and that's likely to be far sooner on a TLC based drive than a proper MLC one.

My own choice is the MLC based MDNVME80-BPX-0512 with a 700TBW and a lower cost/GB than the Samsung products...significantly so in the case of the 960Pro. The only downside is, they still don't have a 1TB drive available, but it should come with a 1400TBW. These are 3.5x what you get with the EVO at a lower price point and roughly same performance 2600r/1300w.

Oh and the BPX drive gets real nice and toasty. I'd not put that thing in a laptop, but slotted in a motherboard with some airflow it doesn't throttle.

 

[EarthDog]

If you fit the use model, makes sense. The vast majority dont. For those people, it isnt really a concern.

 

[TimoneX]

If you fit the use model, makes sense. The vast majority dont. For those people, it isnt really a concern.

Agree. Still glad the OP chose the 960pro and not the evo as the latter makes zero sense, at least to me. If the evo was at least the cheapest drive available I could see it, but it's not even. The performance is okay...as long as they last, but there are better and more reliable options with longer warranties available.

 

[EarthDog]

I would have went with the evo. As was said, 99% dont blow through 200GB writes /day so tlc vs mlc doesnt matter. Performance difference is barely felt. Why pay more unless they want that performance difference? It makes sense for nearly everyone else.

 

[Max0r]

The more I read this thread the more I with my choice to purchase the Evo. That being said, thanks to the knowledge dropped in this thread, if I decide to do a bunch of video editing or the like, I'll keep it on the HDD unless I have a contingency plan for SSD failure I just got the 256 GB though so it's no big deal. Can always add more SSDs later and keep that one as the mostly read, low write drive.

 

[EarthDog]

Lol, you shouldnt regret getting the evo... are you reading the thread??? You dont write 200GB a day or close!

 

[Max0r]

Lol, you shouldnt regret getting the evo... are you reading the thread??? You dont write 200GB a day or close!

Some day I will, EarthDog... some day...

 

[TimoneX]

I would have went with the evo. As was said, 99% dont blow through 200GB writes /day so tlc vs mlc doesnt matter. Performance difference is barely felt. Why pay more unless they want that performance difference? It makes sense for nearly everyone else.

Pay more? ...for what? You mean the 960Pro? It cleanly bests the evo in performance and will surely beat it in endurance as well. That drive has kickass performance and a decent endurance. Sure most people are probably buying these things to game or system drives and won't be writing a whole lot of data, but some will, and when your drive gives up the blue smoke you often lose more than just the cost of the drive. Your data for instance if you don't have up to date backups. YMMV, but that 100TBW on the 256GB evo in particular repels me like a naked Hillary would.

Like I said, in a world where the evo is the cheapest option on a /GB basis it'd be fine, but it's not the cheapest option. There are drives available that offer the same performance, over 3x the endurance, 2yrs more warranty coverage, and still cost less.

 

[EarthDog]

I know it beats it in speed.. said as much...nit that one can feel it outside of benchmarks. Endurance doesnt matter as discussed previously. Evo is a valid choice for those that arent writing 200GB /day.

 

[TimoneX]

As far as speed goes, sure most people won't notice, but most people also don't write huge amounts of data. If they did, they'd like their 960 evo a whole lot less because they're not particularly good at it. I dunno what people's use cases are, just pointing out the pros and cons. Being lousy at sustained writes seems like a rather significant con with the evo to me and you can definitely tell outside of benchmarks...just transfer a 60GB file to your evo and you'll notice it ain't quite as awesome for a while.

Really don't see how anyone can say endurance doesn't matter when we know that's what determines how long these things are going to remain non-bricked. The evo has a 3 year warranty for a reason imo, as a certain number of people will be writing to them and their endurance just flat out sucks compared to the competition. Probably for most the evo will seem fine for a few years and then just die and have to be replaced, whereas if they'd chosen the Pro or the BPX drive they could spend their money on something else instead.

Bottom line: If you already have an evo, then yeah don't throw it out a window. lol However...if you're shopping for an SSD and you want it in m.2 format then the Samsung evo just isn't all that great a product as you can pay less and get a better drive elsewhere. Right this second the evo 500 is 248.38(.481/GB) and the BPX 480 is 199.99(.416/GB). I can't come up with a single compelling reason to choose the former over the latter.

 

[EarthDog]

We'll agree to disagree... just saying its a viable option. Clearly not the best, clearly not the worst.

 

[Robert17]

I strongly believe that I'll wind up getting the next new toy as an upgrade long before I approach any endurance records.