Memory overclock affecting Vega APU/Drivers in Ryzen 3 2200G ?!?

[bengalih]

So this is a pretty strange situation. And my root question to you experts is:
Is this really a memory OC issue or something else?

Let me preface this explanation with the fact that I am not much of an over-clocker. I've built quite a few systems, but never delved into the dark world of OC and while I understand basic/intermediate hardware specs, the minutiae of RAM timings and all the various tweakable OC BIOS settings eludes me.

I didn't plan to get into OC with this new build I am doing. I purchased the following:

- AMD Ryzen 3 2200G
- ASRock AB350 Pro4 ATX mobo
- G.SKILL F4-2666C15D-8GVR (DDR4 2666\Timing 15-15-15-35\CAS Latency 15\Voltage 1.2V)

What I didn't know (didn't even know to check) is that the RAM apparently has an SPD speed of 2133MHz and a "tested" speed of 2666 (this spec wasn't advertised on Newegg).
I'm not sure yet if this is true of ALL DDR4 ram? But it seems pretty disingenuous to advertise it at just a "tested" speed if those speed profiles won't definitively work on a system.
All that aside (though feel free to enlighten me more here if you see fit), here is the issue:

I loaded Windows 2016 Server (all tests I mention were also done with Windows 10 x64) and everything works fine for basic OS setup. Install some updates, tweak a few OS parameters, etc... just testing out the build. I realize then that the RAM speeds are showing as 2133 in CPU-Z and in my BIOS. I do a little research and find my BIOS XMP profile settings and change it to the one profile and the 2666 speed. I boot up again and all looks good. BIOS, CPU-Z and windows wmic commands all show the speed at 2666.

I then realize I don't have the Ryzen Vega display driver installed, so I install it (I've tried numerous versions from AMD and ASRock).
Screen goes black. Monitor still gets signal, but OS is apparently crashed (can tell this from no remote access/ping).
After messing around I have definitively determined that this only happens when my RAM is set about 2400.
2133 works. 2400 works. 2666 no go.

If I try a new OS load with RAM set to 2666 then I get the black screen crash during driver install I mention. If I do the configuration with RAM set to 2133 then everything works, but when I switch back to 2666 I get the Windows logon screen for about 2-3 seconds on boot and then it crashes black again in the same way.

What gets me (again - admittedly not a lot of OC experience) is why would setting the RAM to 2666 affect the system in this very strangely specific way?
I should also mention I ran 4 passes (default) of the Passmark memtest86 app against my system running at 2666 and there were absolutely no errors.
I can also seemingly run Windows without any issue (did not do any extensive stress testing).
The issue only happens when I try to install/load the Ryzen Display driver.

I've been posting around trying to explain the situation and ask questions appropriate to the forum I'm in.
I'm really at a loss.
People have been telling me:
- Forget the XMP profile and do all the settings yourself: I've tried some basic things I could gleam from comments, but I really am at a loss as to how to manually tweak all the settings myself. The few things I have done (voltage, some basic timings) don't seem to make a difference.
- The CPU may be bad: I suppose this is possible, but why would it work fine at 2133.

I've gone ahead and ordered a replacement Ryzen as well as Different RAM that is actually listed on the QVL (PV48G300C6K).
The ASRock QVL is horrible as they don't list a lot of RAM that is available and it seems full of errors/inconsistencies (like they say they only test 2 sticks from what looks like a 4 stick set, etc). Plus from a lot of what I read (and past experience) almost any RAM will work as long as it falls within spec.

Anyway - that's my story. Hopefully one of these new components fixes the issue - but I'd still like to understand what is going on.
I suppose it could be the MoBo as well - but I've already RMA'd it twice in the first week and hoping I don't need to do that all again.

Any thoughts/ideas?

Thanks

 

[wingman99]

If things are running fine at lower memory clock speeds of 2133, then increased clock speed with XMP causes problems. Then your doing the correct things by replacing the processor or memory that is not allowing the higher memory clock speeds reliably.

 

[bengalih]

If things are running fine at lower memory clock speeds of 2133, then increased the clock speed causes problems. Then your doing the correct things by replacing the processor or memory that is not allowing the higher memory clock speeds reliably.

I guess my questions here are:

1) If the CPU is bad/faulty/bottom bin then why would the GPU work at all (which it does at RAM speeds below 2666). IOW - if I am only overclocking the RAM via the XMP, why is the CPU affected?
2) If the RAM really is the issue, why does Windows run fine (seemingly)? Why does Memtest86 pass all tests with no error at 2666 speed? Why is the *only* seeming manifestation of the issue that the display drivers can't be loaded at speeds above 2400?


I just don't have the experience of various OC encounters to know, but doesn't it seem like very weirdly specific issue when all else seem ok?

 

[wingman99]

Sometimes things are just out of tolerance to work at faster speeds reliably. The processor has the memory controller for the system memory and they need to communicate at fast speeds going from 2133 to XMP 2666. And the memory has to send and receive reliable data faster going from 2133-2666 it could just be out of tolerance.

Video Graphics use the full speed of the system memory, so any fault will show up compared to the slower speed demands by OS and applications needed by the processor.

 

[Woomack]

Memory highly affects APU performance. It's because RAM is video memory and also internal bus is linking everything and works at RAM speed.
When I had 2200G then I had no issues to run it with RAM up to 3866. I was using ASRock X370 ITX but most motherboards won't make more than ~3466. However, how high RAM can run depends on many things like BIOS, RAM profiles, used memory IC or memory controller.

I doubt that any Ryzen APU or CPU has problems to pass 3200. It's just matter of settings, good enough memory IC and good BIOS.

XMP or tested frequency is never guaranteed. It was tested on some motherboards with some BIOS versions. It should work but it's never guaranteed on every motherboard.
F4-2666C15D-8GVR is old memory series, designed for chipsets before Ryzen was on the market. Ryzen officially doesn't support CL with odd numbers like 15, 17, 19 ... it will always run at +1 so 14, 16, 18, 20, ...

- check the latest BIOS
- check if memory is correctly installed in slots 2/4
- try more relaxed main timings like 16-16-16-36 1.35V ( it will require enabling XMP anyway as ASRock won't let you to change memory options if it's disabled )

 

[bengalih]

XMP or tested frequency is never guaranteed. It was tested on some motherboards with some BIOS versions. It should work but it's never guaranteed on every motherboard.
F4-2666C15D-8GVR is old memory series, designed for chipsets before Ryzen was on the market. Ryzen officially doesn't support CL with odd numbers like 15, 17, 19 ... it will always run at +1 so 14, 16, 18, 20, ...

- check the latest BIOS
- check if memory is correctly installed in slots 2/4
- try more relaxed main timings like 16-16-16-36 1.35V ( it will require enabling XMP anyway as ASRock won't let you to change memory options if it's disabled )

Thanks for that. Can I ask where you get the info about Ryzen not supporting odd CL numbers? Is this official and if so where can I read official documentation on this to learn more?

Also - are you 100% sure about ASRock not letting change? I wrote over in the ASRock forums because this is new to me and it appears that I can change from using "ASRock Overclocking" which appears to use XMP to selecting "AMD CBS" settings. Then I can go into the Advanced > AMD CBS settings and it appears I can set timings from there.
I'm still not 100% sure on this. The specific settings I'm seeing I mention here.

 

[wingman99]

I can't find anything saying that AMD does not officially support odd timings. However, G.SKILL memory for AMD runs 2400 15-15-15-39 Flare X LINK: http://www.gskill.com/en/finder?cat...5-39&prop_1=0&series=2954&prop_2=16GB+(8GBx2)

And your AMD Ryzen 3 2200G processor officially supports up to 2993 speed memory LINK: https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-3-2200g

 

[Johan45]

For AMD odd CL support up to DDR4 2933 IIRC after that if you want to set odd numbers you need to change the gear down setting. AMD also runs 1T over 2T command rate.

 

[bengalih]

For AMD odd CL support up to DDR4 2933 IIRC after that if you want to set odd numbers you need to change the gear down setting. AMD also runs 1T over 2T command rate.

Ok. So I've been reading up about the basics of memory OC, some Ryzen specifics, and getting advice from here and a few other places.
I have to say that your "gear down" setting seemed to be the magic bullet for now!

I was not able to run above 2400 with that gear down setting enabled. Once I set that along with changing 15-15-15-35 to 16-16-16-38 I was able to boot and Windows could initialize the driver at 2666!

Ofc, now that I've gathered all this knowledge I figured I would push it a bit

I'm set right now at:
- 2933 Mhz
- 14-14-16-32
- gear down disabled
- Command Rate 1T
- DRAM voltage 1.35

With these settings I have passed multiple passes of memtest86 and windows boots and initializes the Vega driver.
I'm currently running a blend torture test in Prime95 now to see what happens.

If things work with these settings, they seem pretty good, right? It didn't seem like I was able to go over 2933. But, from what was referenced above it seems the 2200G cannot go over this anyway?
Does this mean that I can *never* reach above this with this CPU, or would I have to OC the CPU to try to get beyond this?

Honestly, I'm happy with 2933 and the timings I have since both are better than what I was purchasing. I was ready to just run at 2666.

Can anyone suggest additional tests that I should run, or additional settings I should be looking into?
I don't yet understand why I might need to change SOC voltage or ProcODT

I want to note that I was directed elsewhere to use a Ryzen DRAM Calculator app (by 1usmus). I used a program called Thaiphoon Burner to get specs on my RAM and put it into this calculator.
It recommends 14-14-14-46 @ 2933 as well as slightly higher voltages. How much credence should I give this calculator if other settings work for me? (btw it also says to enable GDM, which definitely doesn't work for me).

 

[Johan45]

It can go well past 2933, mostly it's the RAM you chose. It's probably fine the way it is. You can try for more but make sure to save a stable profile to fall back on when things go off the rails. The DRam calculator actually works OK as long as they have tested your specific RAM thoroughly. Try for 3200 with it's suggestion and see how it goes.

 

[bengalih]

Thanks. I'm going to consider this thread resolved since my original issues seem to have been related to the RAM.

I'm going to start another thread to ask some general questions about testing for stability, etc.

 

[emanems]

Ok. So I've been reading up about the basics of memory OC, some Ryzen specifics, and getting advice from here and a few other places.
I have to say that your "gear down" setting seemed to be the magic bullet for now!

I was not able to run above 2400 with that gear down setting enabled. Once I set that along with changing 15-15-15-35 to 16-16-16-38 I was able to boot and Windows could initialize the driver at 2666!

Ofc, now that I've gathered all this knowledge I figured I would push it a bit

I'm set right now at:
- 2933 Mhz
- 14-14-16-32
- gear down disabled
- Command Rate 1T
- DRAM voltage 1.35

With these settings I have passed multiple passes of memtest86 and windows boots and initializes the Vega driver.
I'm currently running a blend torture test in Prime95 now to see what happens.

If things work with these settings, they seem pretty good, right? It didn't seem like I was able to go over 2933. But, from what was referenced above it seems the 2200G cannot go over this anyway?
Does this mean that I can *never* reach above this with this CPU, or would I have to OC the CPU to try to get beyond this?

Honestly, I'm happy with 2933 and the timings I have since both are better than what I was purchasing. I was ready to just run at 2666.

Can anyone suggest additional tests that I should run, or additional settings I should be looking into?
I don't yet understand why I might need to change SOC voltage or ProcODT

I want to note that I was directed elsewhere to use a Ryzen DRAM Calculator app (by 1usmus). I used a program called Thaiphoon Burner to get specs on my RAM and put it into this calculator.
It recommends 14-14-14-46 @ 2933 as well as slightly higher voltages. How much credence should I give this calculator if other settings work for me? (btw it also says to enable GDM, which definitely doesn't work for me).

Hi Bengalih,

I have this sticks, and I want to overclock to 2933 or 3200. Do you still use this values without errors, Have you found any other better configuration?

Thanks