Ok so me and my supplier were havin a conversation about my rig and how I wanted to to a phase change setup.... then he throws out some word I cant remember and says it involves submerging your rig (minus the case, psu, HD's, optical drives, etc.) in mineral oil or distilled water and cooling THAT... called it SUPERclocking. I know mineral oil and distilled water do not conduct electricity so this makes sense.... WHAT THE H*** is he talkin about???
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Mineral Oil & Distilled H2O
- Thread starter Qlix
- Start date
Sealing off ur case and sinking it into a vavt of Mineral Oil or other non-conductive liquid is a giant heatsink if you will. It keeps the sumbereged parts at the temp of the liquid (usually what ever the ambient temp is).
Fanless system... though I'd hate to have to work on a mess like that.
I don't know about the "superclocking" part, I'd hate to see what would happen to the MB when introduced to Sub-Zero temps through Mineral Oil.
EDIT:
Sorry, that sounds weird... not sealing off your case so the liquid can't get in, but sealing it off so it can't get out.
Fanless system... though I'd hate to have to work on a mess like that.
I don't know about the "superclocking" part, I'd hate to see what would happen to the MB when introduced to Sub-Zero temps through Mineral Oil.
EDIT:
Sorry, that sounds weird... not sealing off your case so the liquid can't get in, but sealing it off so it can't get out.
- Joined
- Jun 24, 2005
I just posted this in another thread but why not again heh:
Now let me open up the can of "stay away from submersion cooling" I made a long time ago:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1662151&postcount=6
Its a horrible idea and it works very poorly with many problems and complication, completly impractical, costly, messy and pointless. Just a show for craps a giggles.
As for a more constructive replay I posted this once:
Done many times but all these projects are plagued with problems and are not meant to last.
Oil has a very low surface tension and as a result leaks though just about every little microscopic crack possible.
It ruins capacitors and some other things.
It is also an extremely poor conductor of heat.
Also cooling everything vs just the gpu/cpu gains nothing and is a waste of capacity where its it needed, it cpu/gpu.
Oil breaks down when exposed to oxygen. Other mediums are even worse.
And much more:
I almost went thought with this idea once and did months of reading and research and testing on the subject, I'll shear it with you. My idea was to use DD but to use the dielectric fluid to insulate. But you need the same information I needed. I have backed out of the project because it turned "uncool" very fast. This is NOT a project you want to do if you want something fun and flashy. I will talk about some problems as to why I backed out in favor of a chiller.
You can find many projects like yours online but you must keep in mind that most of them are non permanent, very messy and plagued with problems and maintenance. You won’t read any problems or any thoughts on most of what I will tell you because these projects are meant to last for about an hour then it doesn’t matter what happens.
MEDIUM:
Fluorinert is the best option if you actually want this to cool and not cook your computer. Here is some information on it:
- Lower viscosity then water (flows better then water)
- Crystal clear and odorless
- The pour temperatures vary from -101ºC to 215ºC depending on type
- Relatively non-toxic
- Non-flammable
- It will permeate (leak) through PVC, Tygon, and silicon tubing so use metal pipes / metal enclosures etc.
- Heavy, 1 gallon = 8 pounds
- Inert (non-corrosive)
- High electrical resistance (can stop 30,000v) = 100% dielectric as for as your *** is concerned
- Almost nothing biological can grow or live in it
- About $225 per gallon
- Evaporates fast
- Saps plasticizer out of plastic (makes plastic *relatively* brittle over time)
- Does not dissolve rubber
Here is a good article on it and cooling:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little about PerFluorcarbon/Fluorinert by YoueatLard
I see allot of people talking about this and inquiring about these substances. Few here but many that get into water-cooling come into contact with topics about it. I work with a variant of Fluorinert called FC-77 and figure I might shed some light on PerFluorcarbon/Fluorinert products.
First of all this is a completely synthetic product. The only place I know of to buy it (new and free of contaminates) is from 3M though reclaimed Fluorinert may be purchased from various locations.
Fluorinert is an awesome product for cooling.
Yes it is similar to water but it has a lower viscosity. This is good and bad.
It is good because should move faster in a pump then water will. This helps to offset it's lower thermal conductivity and thermal capacitance.
It hurts because it will leak or permeate in systems that will hold air and or water. This is hurts because of it's price. You will have to use metal pipes because of this. It will permeate through PVC, Tygon, and silicon tubing. You will also want your pump inside a metal reservoir. I might recommend using copper tubing for it is fairly cheap and relatively easy to work with.
Also, yes flourinert will work in your Hydrocool or Eheim pump.
Fluorinert is heavy. Water is roughly 8 pounds to the gallon. Flourinert is roughly 14 pounds to the gallon. Why does this matter? Most places sell it by the pound.
Now for the pluses it was made for:
Fluorinert is inert. This means no worry of corrosion from using it. At work we've been pumping it through aluminum pipes with copper crushwashers for the last 30 years. Whenever I remove a part cooled by fluorinert I look inside it and inside the tubing and inspect for corrosion. The 95% of the piping I inspect has been inservice to 30 years and I've never seen or heard of corrosion being found in it. Ever looked inside a car's radiator after someone has put too much water in it and ran it for a 3-5 years?
Although fluorinert is non-corrosive but is not anti corrosive. It will not protect your system from anything else you put in it. It also will not mix (suspension, chemical, or otherwise) with water. To my knowledge it will not with oil, alcohol, or antifreeze. If you get it to mix with something post it and I'll fix this. Our pumps at work off of centrifugal force as does the Eheim.
Fluorinert has a high electrical resistance. You could put a wire carrying 30,000 volts in one side of a glass, a grounded wire an inch away in the other side and it wouldn't arc or short. Meanwhile the same setup with water would vaporize violently probably turning the glass into shrapnel.
Note: to the few of you out there that know how to generate 30,000 volts:
Don't try it.
You can submerge your computer in it if you wanted to and it would run fine. (People have tested this.) Whats this mean to you? If it springs a leak, the only hazard your computer faces is overheating from lack of coolant.
Fluorinert is crystal clear and odorless.
Fluorinert will work in extreme environments. We use it to cool aircraft electronics at altitudes of 28,000 to 33,000 feet using outside air to cool the radiator. This means the liquid will get extremely cold. Fluorinert's freezing and boiling point varies depending on type. The pour temperatures vary from -101ºC to 215ºC. This could be great for those who want to include a freezer, compressor, peltier cooling liquid through a water block, or dry ice in their liquid cooling setup.
Note: Liquid nitrogen can cool fluorinert outside of is operational temperatures and cause it to gel.
Two words: Non-flammable.
Almost* nothing biological can grow or live in it. I think they may have found one single cell organism that can survive in it. But nothing I've ever or will ever come in contact with will live in it.
Relatively non-toxic. If it spills on you the main concern in some environments is frostbite from rapid evaporation. It won't hurt your eye's, and if you breath it wont kill you. If you get it in your eyes, the main concern is dehydration. It will evaporate very quickly and take the fluid naturally in your eyes with it. This fluid naturally in your eyes allows dust and particles in the air to be wiped away without harm. So this is bad.
I could guess what you're wondering now.
So, if this stuff is so great why isn't everyone using it?
Well, remember when I said this stuff is heavy? The cheapest I've found it is $16 (USD) per pound. This comes out to $225 per gallon.
It also evaporates faster then anything I've ever seen. I saw someone accidentally spill quart into the open air 30 feet off the ground on a 100ºF day. It never hit the ground. Basically this stuff evaporates at several times the rate of alcohol at room temperature. It will also evaporate on a very cold day.
So, this added to it's leakage rate means you could easily be topping off your system once per month or so and that gets expensive.
Note:As I pointed out before these are completely synthetic products. They are more then likely unlike anything you've previously come into contact with.
While handling a face shield and non-porteous gloves should be worn.
If you do decide to use Fluorinert know what you are doing.
I recommend first looking it up in a MSDS. This is available online. Print it out and keep it handy. If an accident occurs this'll be the only way most hospitals will know what to treat you or your little ones for. Also hit 3M just for regular info.
Note²: If you plan on using any plastic in a system containing fluorinert plear refer to fluorinerts MSDS and look at all technical data published by 3M on it, also search the web for additional information. This means you don't want to put it in a plastic pump you want to keep and it will void the unit's warranty. This is because fluorinert reacts (eats) plasticizers.
Also I said before, fluorinert is heavy and that it is sold by it's weight. Do the math, this stuff is very close to the weight of concrete per square foot. This means it is not cheap.
Although I centered this around Fluorinert, both it and PerFluorcarbon are very similar. Closer then either and water.
http://www.houseofhelp.com/v2/showthread.php?t=25976&highlight=fluorinert
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of my "words of wisdom"
-You won’t find a cheap medium that is nice for our purposes. Things like transformer oil and vegetable oils at the other end, work but not very good by far. Horrible heat transfer properties and get extremely thick fast when get cold, some natural oils decompose and smell with time. The other end is high tech mediums like Fluorinert but those get very expensive, about $225 per gallon. Keep in mind most oils dissolve rubber, and your capacitors on your motherboard are sealed with a rubber ring. You need to cover them with something to protect them if you use oil. Yes there are substances that will not attack rubber, or so they claim. Very few in this field though, opticool doesn't, or so it claims. It was tested by a member here do a search on it. From what I remember he had no problems with it. But its not cheap either.
After a lot of research I settled on Opticool. If you want to do this Opticool is the way to go:
Opticool Brochure
Opticool MSDS
Opticool Technical Properties
-Also keep in mind that a lot of these oils and fluorinerts will suck the plasticizer out of your motherboard and most plastics, making them brittle.
READ THIS -CAUTION- READ THIS
-Be VERY careful with UV. Some oils and fluorinerts react and break down when exposed to UV rays. UV rays as in the neon and cold cathode lights people put in their computers to make thing glow in the dark. Oxygen doesn't do them well either so seal it up well and if not full to the top replace the air with something else like dry nitrogen. Oxygen will cause the break down of the oils and fluorinerts over time.
READ THIS -CAUTION- READ THIS
-Also keep in mind that if you ever want to swap parts you will have big problems. Your computer will never 100% free of the medium. Say good bye to the warranty, they wont take it back, and cleaning this crap off is virtually impossible.
-Use all metal piping and enclosures and weld or braze it together. If you use anything else fluorinert will leak right though your walls. And if oil it will leak in joints at least. One of the BIGGEST problems with oils and so on is low surface tension. Given the time a drop of oil will flatten itself to almost if not the thickness of one of its molecules. How thin depends on the oils surface tension but in oils its very low. Same goes for fluorinerts form what I know. What does that mean for you? If you have a clack or opening where air would not leak this stuff will. If you do some reading on these projects in a few days things can get very very messy.
-Make sure to get a chemical pump that can handle the medium and has the power to push it. Fluorinert will makes your normal plastic pump crumble like a rice cake, and wont have the power to pump thick cold oil. Either looking for an extremely powerful pump, large and loud, or an all metal chemical pump, also wont be quite probably.
-And one last thing. Temperatures. Make SURE your capacitors are rated for whatever temperature you will be running them at. They do fail if you go below. Find what capacitors are on your board, make sure you are good there, if not then go buy some that are rated for -70c (very cheap) and swap all the capacitors on your motherboard and cards.
-I looked for a long time and did not find any truly cheap medium that had a nice viscosity for pumping, good heat transfer properties, non harmful/toxic or deadly, non destructive to rubbers and plastics. Opticool as as close as I came to what we need. There are many other problems to deal with as well that are not cheap. If you want to be cool be prepared to dish out a lot of money or stop this project while you still didn't waste any money or time
-I wanted this for the cool factor as well. I wanted to have a window and see evaps on my cpu and 2 gpus and the whole thing swimming in a clear fluid. No dice bud. Why? Because you will get a lot of condensation on the window. You will have to wrap the whole thing in insulation. No window. You could make a double plane window if cold enough would have to pump hot air between the two planes but like I said this is going to get ugly very fast. You need to fabricate these windows, you need to pump the air inside, you need to heat the air, that all runs in to more electricity costs and becomes unpractical very fast since there are a lot of things like this and they all add up very fast. Sure there are solutions but they require more money, more fabrication, more time. This type of project is about as practical as a 5 stage -170C cascade ran 24/7. That and if you are using fluorinert no window at all.
And lastly PLEASE read all these articles and write ups about peoples experiences doing this. This will save you a lot of problems. You don’t want to learn on your own mistakes, its way too expensive. Learn on mistakes of others.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=802563&page=1&pp=20&highlight=Submerged
http://braineater.kicks-***.tv/worklog.html
http://www.overclockers.com/Tips187/
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=851060&page=2&pp=20
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=851060
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52004
http://www.short-media.com/review.php?r=222
http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getarticle&number=1&artpage=1178&articID=296
Good Luck :toast:
Now let me open up the can of "stay away from submersion cooling" I made a long time ago:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1662151&postcount=6
Its a horrible idea and it works very poorly with many problems and complication, completly impractical, costly, messy and pointless. Just a show for craps a giggles.
As for a more constructive replay I posted this once:
Done many times but all these projects are plagued with problems and are not meant to last.
Oil has a very low surface tension and as a result leaks though just about every little microscopic crack possible.
It ruins capacitors and some other things.
It is also an extremely poor conductor of heat.
Also cooling everything vs just the gpu/cpu gains nothing and is a waste of capacity where its it needed, it cpu/gpu.
Oil breaks down when exposed to oxygen. Other mediums are even worse.
And much more:
I almost went thought with this idea once and did months of reading and research and testing on the subject, I'll shear it with you. My idea was to use DD but to use the dielectric fluid to insulate. But you need the same information I needed. I have backed out of the project because it turned "uncool" very fast. This is NOT a project you want to do if you want something fun and flashy. I will talk about some problems as to why I backed out in favor of a chiller.
You can find many projects like yours online but you must keep in mind that most of them are non permanent, very messy and plagued with problems and maintenance. You won’t read any problems or any thoughts on most of what I will tell you because these projects are meant to last for about an hour then it doesn’t matter what happens.
MEDIUM:
Fluorinert is the best option if you actually want this to cool and not cook your computer. Here is some information on it:
- Lower viscosity then water (flows better then water)
- Crystal clear and odorless
- The pour temperatures vary from -101ºC to 215ºC depending on type
- Relatively non-toxic
- Non-flammable
- It will permeate (leak) through PVC, Tygon, and silicon tubing so use metal pipes / metal enclosures etc.
- Heavy, 1 gallon = 8 pounds
- Inert (non-corrosive)
- High electrical resistance (can stop 30,000v) = 100% dielectric as for as your *** is concerned
- Almost nothing biological can grow or live in it
- About $225 per gallon
- Evaporates fast
- Saps plasticizer out of plastic (makes plastic *relatively* brittle over time)
- Does not dissolve rubber
Here is a good article on it and cooling:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little about PerFluorcarbon/Fluorinert by YoueatLard
I see allot of people talking about this and inquiring about these substances. Few here but many that get into water-cooling come into contact with topics about it. I work with a variant of Fluorinert called FC-77 and figure I might shed some light on PerFluorcarbon/Fluorinert products.
First of all this is a completely synthetic product. The only place I know of to buy it (new and free of contaminates) is from 3M though reclaimed Fluorinert may be purchased from various locations.
Fluorinert is an awesome product for cooling.
Yes it is similar to water but it has a lower viscosity. This is good and bad.
It is good because should move faster in a pump then water will. This helps to offset it's lower thermal conductivity and thermal capacitance.
It hurts because it will leak or permeate in systems that will hold air and or water. This is hurts because of it's price. You will have to use metal pipes because of this. It will permeate through PVC, Tygon, and silicon tubing. You will also want your pump inside a metal reservoir. I might recommend using copper tubing for it is fairly cheap and relatively easy to work with.
Also, yes flourinert will work in your Hydrocool or Eheim pump.
Fluorinert is heavy. Water is roughly 8 pounds to the gallon. Flourinert is roughly 14 pounds to the gallon. Why does this matter? Most places sell it by the pound.
Now for the pluses it was made for:
Fluorinert is inert. This means no worry of corrosion from using it. At work we've been pumping it through aluminum pipes with copper crushwashers for the last 30 years. Whenever I remove a part cooled by fluorinert I look inside it and inside the tubing and inspect for corrosion. The 95% of the piping I inspect has been inservice to 30 years and I've never seen or heard of corrosion being found in it. Ever looked inside a car's radiator after someone has put too much water in it and ran it for a 3-5 years?
Although fluorinert is non-corrosive but is not anti corrosive. It will not protect your system from anything else you put in it. It also will not mix (suspension, chemical, or otherwise) with water. To my knowledge it will not with oil, alcohol, or antifreeze. If you get it to mix with something post it and I'll fix this. Our pumps at work off of centrifugal force as does the Eheim.
Fluorinert has a high electrical resistance. You could put a wire carrying 30,000 volts in one side of a glass, a grounded wire an inch away in the other side and it wouldn't arc or short. Meanwhile the same setup with water would vaporize violently probably turning the glass into shrapnel.
Note: to the few of you out there that know how to generate 30,000 volts:
Don't try it.
You can submerge your computer in it if you wanted to and it would run fine. (People have tested this.) Whats this mean to you? If it springs a leak, the only hazard your computer faces is overheating from lack of coolant.
Fluorinert is crystal clear and odorless.
Fluorinert will work in extreme environments. We use it to cool aircraft electronics at altitudes of 28,000 to 33,000 feet using outside air to cool the radiator. This means the liquid will get extremely cold. Fluorinert's freezing and boiling point varies depending on type. The pour temperatures vary from -101ºC to 215ºC. This could be great for those who want to include a freezer, compressor, peltier cooling liquid through a water block, or dry ice in their liquid cooling setup.
Note: Liquid nitrogen can cool fluorinert outside of is operational temperatures and cause it to gel.
Two words: Non-flammable.
Almost* nothing biological can grow or live in it. I think they may have found one single cell organism that can survive in it. But nothing I've ever or will ever come in contact with will live in it.
Relatively non-toxic. If it spills on you the main concern in some environments is frostbite from rapid evaporation. It won't hurt your eye's, and if you breath it wont kill you. If you get it in your eyes, the main concern is dehydration. It will evaporate very quickly and take the fluid naturally in your eyes with it. This fluid naturally in your eyes allows dust and particles in the air to be wiped away without harm. So this is bad.
I could guess what you're wondering now.
So, if this stuff is so great why isn't everyone using it?
Well, remember when I said this stuff is heavy? The cheapest I've found it is $16 (USD) per pound. This comes out to $225 per gallon.
It also evaporates faster then anything I've ever seen. I saw someone accidentally spill quart into the open air 30 feet off the ground on a 100ºF day. It never hit the ground. Basically this stuff evaporates at several times the rate of alcohol at room temperature. It will also evaporate on a very cold day.
So, this added to it's leakage rate means you could easily be topping off your system once per month or so and that gets expensive.
Note:As I pointed out before these are completely synthetic products. They are more then likely unlike anything you've previously come into contact with.
While handling a face shield and non-porteous gloves should be worn.
If you do decide to use Fluorinert know what you are doing.
I recommend first looking it up in a MSDS. This is available online. Print it out and keep it handy. If an accident occurs this'll be the only way most hospitals will know what to treat you or your little ones for. Also hit 3M just for regular info.
Note²: If you plan on using any plastic in a system containing fluorinert plear refer to fluorinerts MSDS and look at all technical data published by 3M on it, also search the web for additional information. This means you don't want to put it in a plastic pump you want to keep and it will void the unit's warranty. This is because fluorinert reacts (eats) plasticizers.
Also I said before, fluorinert is heavy and that it is sold by it's weight. Do the math, this stuff is very close to the weight of concrete per square foot. This means it is not cheap.
Although I centered this around Fluorinert, both it and PerFluorcarbon are very similar. Closer then either and water.
http://www.houseofhelp.com/v2/showthread.php?t=25976&highlight=fluorinert
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some of my "words of wisdom"
-You won’t find a cheap medium that is nice for our purposes. Things like transformer oil and vegetable oils at the other end, work but not very good by far. Horrible heat transfer properties and get extremely thick fast when get cold, some natural oils decompose and smell with time. The other end is high tech mediums like Fluorinert but those get very expensive, about $225 per gallon. Keep in mind most oils dissolve rubber, and your capacitors on your motherboard are sealed with a rubber ring. You need to cover them with something to protect them if you use oil. Yes there are substances that will not attack rubber, or so they claim. Very few in this field though, opticool doesn't, or so it claims. It was tested by a member here do a search on it. From what I remember he had no problems with it. But its not cheap either.
After a lot of research I settled on Opticool. If you want to do this Opticool is the way to go:
Opticool Brochure
Opticool MSDS
Opticool Technical Properties
-Also keep in mind that a lot of these oils and fluorinerts will suck the plasticizer out of your motherboard and most plastics, making them brittle.
READ THIS -CAUTION- READ THIS
-Be VERY careful with UV. Some oils and fluorinerts react and break down when exposed to UV rays. UV rays as in the neon and cold cathode lights people put in their computers to make thing glow in the dark. Oxygen doesn't do them well either so seal it up well and if not full to the top replace the air with something else like dry nitrogen. Oxygen will cause the break down of the oils and fluorinerts over time.
READ THIS -CAUTION- READ THIS
-Also keep in mind that if you ever want to swap parts you will have big problems. Your computer will never 100% free of the medium. Say good bye to the warranty, they wont take it back, and cleaning this crap off is virtually impossible.
-Use all metal piping and enclosures and weld or braze it together. If you use anything else fluorinert will leak right though your walls. And if oil it will leak in joints at least. One of the BIGGEST problems with oils and so on is low surface tension. Given the time a drop of oil will flatten itself to almost if not the thickness of one of its molecules. How thin depends on the oils surface tension but in oils its very low. Same goes for fluorinerts form what I know. What does that mean for you? If you have a clack or opening where air would not leak this stuff will. If you do some reading on these projects in a few days things can get very very messy.
-Make sure to get a chemical pump that can handle the medium and has the power to push it. Fluorinert will makes your normal plastic pump crumble like a rice cake, and wont have the power to pump thick cold oil. Either looking for an extremely powerful pump, large and loud, or an all metal chemical pump, also wont be quite probably.
-And one last thing. Temperatures. Make SURE your capacitors are rated for whatever temperature you will be running them at. They do fail if you go below. Find what capacitors are on your board, make sure you are good there, if not then go buy some that are rated for -70c (very cheap) and swap all the capacitors on your motherboard and cards.
-I looked for a long time and did not find any truly cheap medium that had a nice viscosity for pumping, good heat transfer properties, non harmful/toxic or deadly, non destructive to rubbers and plastics. Opticool as as close as I came to what we need. There are many other problems to deal with as well that are not cheap. If you want to be cool be prepared to dish out a lot of money or stop this project while you still didn't waste any money or time
-I wanted this for the cool factor as well. I wanted to have a window and see evaps on my cpu and 2 gpus and the whole thing swimming in a clear fluid. No dice bud. Why? Because you will get a lot of condensation on the window. You will have to wrap the whole thing in insulation. No window. You could make a double plane window if cold enough would have to pump hot air between the two planes but like I said this is going to get ugly very fast. You need to fabricate these windows, you need to pump the air inside, you need to heat the air, that all runs in to more electricity costs and becomes unpractical very fast since there are a lot of things like this and they all add up very fast. Sure there are solutions but they require more money, more fabrication, more time. This type of project is about as practical as a 5 stage -170C cascade ran 24/7. That and if you are using fluorinert no window at all.
And lastly PLEASE read all these articles and write ups about peoples experiences doing this. This will save you a lot of problems. You don’t want to learn on your own mistakes, its way too expensive. Learn on mistakes of others.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=802563&page=1&pp=20&highlight=Submerged
http://braineater.kicks-***.tv/worklog.html
http://www.overclockers.com/Tips187/
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=851060&page=2&pp=20
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=851060
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52004
http://www.short-media.com/review.php?r=222
http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getarticle&number=1&artpage=1178&articID=296
Good Luck :toast:
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2007
- Location
- West Palm Beach, Florida
Well I guess one use for it is that if your rig ever fails on you miserably, you can always drop a match in it and get the satisfaction of burning the damn thing to hell 
