NVIDIA and AMD in trouble for price fixing

[phantasm]

Price fixing huh? Well i did notice today that the 8800GTX dropped to $599.99. lol.

 

[druidelder]

Is it possible that this is the government not understanding how the industry operates? All of these companies get together to discuss certain aspects of technology so that there are standards by which electronics operate. Did they discuss how prices might be effected by new standards? Were there some offhand comments at one of these meetings? Or were the meetings specifically about keeping prices high?

Even if the meetings were about keeping prices high, I think more needs to be released before we can make any worthwhile assumptions. What if they simply said that we need to release a new highend card every 6-8 months? Does that qualify as price fixing?

 

[aaronjb]

DX10 is essentially a very, very optimized version of DX9.

No, this is not true. DX10 is new from the ground up.

 

[phantasm]

No, this is absolutely not true.

I'm going to have to ignore future posts by you.

Somehow i missed that my first time through the thread. DX10 is in it's own right entirely different from any other previous version of DX. The API has been completely redesigned and is no longer based off of the same system calls or .dll's

 

[TommyHolly]

I just realized that when people were talking about fanboy stuff it was about the video cards... I thought that was only for Sony vs XBox or Ford vs Chevy vs Foreign and that sorta stuff. I can't beleive people argue about which company is better. I wonder if they drive a car with one of those stupid stickers on the back window with calvin peeing on the competitors graphics card...LOL I just don't understand?

Druidelder,
Yeah pricefixing is when companies get together to artificially raise the price of something higher than it would normally sell. Every company tries to raise prices to make a profit as best they can, however...it becomes illegal when 2 or more companies get together and actually PLAN how they are going to do it. If one company simply raised thier price for some item, everyone would just buy more of the competitor's item instead, but if BOTH companies raised thier price, you no loger have a choice and the consumer gets screwed. (I only wish there was some way we could go after OPEC for thier artificially raised oil prices.)

 

[LoneWolf121188]

Intel has been in the GPU business for quite some time, just under the enthusiast radar. Intel's Integrated Graphics chips are run on more computers than all GPU competitors combined. Think of all the business workstations and low-end machines which use Intel graphics.

Not that you'd want to run anything other than MS Word on these GPUs...

True, but can IGPs really be called GPUs? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Intel's IGPs don't have their own memory or things like vertex or pixel shaders. Plus, how much of Intel's revenue does their IGP division make? Does Intel really NEED to be going into the GPU market? ...Then again, additional competition never hurt prices.

aaronjb: It appears as though my knowledge on DX10 was incorrect. I hadn't read up on it for a while and what I'd been hearing recently was what I said: DX10 is essentially a very optimized verion of DX9. But after reading the excellent article over at THG on DX10, it seems as though that's very incorrect. DX10 really is a big leap over DX9. I'm really excited about Instancing 2.0, that looks really cool. I think druidelder's sig puts it best: "I am only human and may make mistakes. Nothing I say is gold. Feel free to correct any misinformation I may spew."

 

[druidelder]

Druidelder,
Yeah pricefixing is when companies get together to artificially raise the price of something higher than it would normally sell. Every company tries to raise prices to make a profit as best they can, however...it becomes illegal when 2 or more companies get together and actually PLAN how they are going to do it. If one company simply raised thier price for some item, everyone would just buy more of the competitor's item instead, but if BOTH companies raised thier price, you no loger have a choice and the consumer gets screwed. (I only wish there was some way we could go after OPEC for thier artificially raised oil prices.)

I understand what price fixing is (and it is much deeper than artificially raising prices, it can involve lowering prices, stabilizing prices, or any agreement between two or more companies with similar products regarding pricing structure).

What I was getting at is that the article left a lot to be desired. I'm sure that the government has not released all of the information that they have (ongoing investigation and all). However, I can see a number of scenarios where the government is just way off base. I am not making a call either way, just pointing out different possibilities.

The government is investigating whether these companies met specifically to set the price of their products. But is that what happened? Is that what these meetings were, or were they something else that people in the DoJ don't fully comprehend?

Particularly in the computer industry, before a new technology standard comes out (ISA, PCI, AGP, etc...) a bunch of related businesses get together to develop the standard. Is it possible that these meetings between AMD, ATI, and nVidia were really about something like that? There could be reason for secrecy if that is the case. Is it possible they were discussing new chipset implementations. If they were, would talking about the costs and the minimum cost to consumers to viably market a new idea count as price fixing. Even if it didn't, would the government fully understand the difference? And if they did, how hard would it be for somebody with a grudge against these companies to manipulate how the facts sound to get an investigation going?

Other companies settling doesn't really mean anything about this case. Nor does it really say much about their own cases. A $300mill settlement sounds like a lot to us, but to a large corporation that might be small enough to not have to deal with the hassle of years of investigation and litigation. Not to mention foreign companies might settle just to make sure they are not somehow blocked from the US market.

Again, I am not saying one way or the other regarding what actually happened. All of this is just conjecture. But the information in the article is not sufficient for anything else.

 

[striker85]

...or that the entire US economy and way of life depends on corporate America, LOL. Most of these anti-gov/anti-US people show how stupid they are on a daily basis. I better give that sheep some hay.

Who ever said that the current economical status in the United States was a good one? Get your head out of your....

 

[Adragontattoo]

Hope everyone realizes that the pricefixing will only result in some rich lawyers and a fines. Nothing will change. Prices for cards will not suddenly drop by 50% and at best, we might have to mail in receipts for the cards we have bought to be eligible for a max of 100USD or something idiotic check.

 

[David]

Who ever said that the current economical status in the United States was a good one? Get your head out of your....

This better not turn political. Lets keep it on topic please.

 

[TommyHolly]

Who ever said that the current economical status in the United States was a good one? Get your head out of your....

Don't worry David, I have heard way worse....LOL

Sorry striker85, but the current economical status in the United States is not only a good one, but also the most powerful and influential in the world. We have convienences and buying power that is unparralled. (for the time being until China becomes #1) I'm not sure what your main point was? You are not happy with the current economy, you just hate corporate America, or you just hate me? LOL

I just think it's awesome that since Enron, the Government has been much more successfull in prosecuting these scumbags. Pricefixing hurts our economy not only directly in the Graphics Card market but also indirectly for everyone and every business that uses a PC.

 

[zexmarquies01]

Hope everyone realizes that the pricefixing will only result in some rich lawyers and a fines. Nothing will change. Prices for cards will not suddenly drop by 50% and at best, we might have to mail in receipts for the cards we have bought to be eligible for a max of 100USD or something idiotic check.

sadly, i agree.

a company gets charged with price fixing, and they just get a fine. Where does that money go? They have to pay 300 million? Who gets that cash?

And why don't they get forced to drop the prices by a conciderable ammount?

and like you said, sometimes we get stuck with a stupid Mail in order thing. its hard enough to prove that we bought the said video card, as the price fixing could have been going on for well over a year. who here keeps a receipt of....anything...for anything? unless they have a specific warrenty. most don't.

then as you said, its a check for generally a petty ammount. If they "stole" ( i use stole, as its the only term i can think of, and it fits pretty well ) 200 million from the consumers, and they only pay out 20 million in mail in receipts, what happens to the other 180 million? Does the courts force them to pay 200 million, and what does not go to the consumers, goes to the government?

bleh, too many questions, and too many If's.

though, i agree with arguing over which company is better/worse in this discussion is pretty pointless. and though this does fit into politics a bit, i hope that it stays within the realms of reason, as i'd realy like to see updates on this trial. and this thread is probably one of the best sources i have, since all of you seem to know so much about it, and provide links.

 

[funnyperson1]

This wouldn't really surprise me. I remember when $300 got you a top of the line GPU (Geforce3/Radeon 8500 era) and not a "midrange" card.

 

[TommyHolly]

This wouldn't really surprise me. I remember when $300 got you a top of the line GPU (Geforce3/Radeon 8500 era) and not a "midrange" card.

Exactly, $300 used to get you a top of the line. Now these things are selling for almost $800?? That's a pretty big price jump.

 

[3line]

Exactly, $300 used to get you a top of the line. Now these things are selling for almost $800?? That's a pretty big price jump.

And to all those people who talk about how better technology needs higher prices, I say bs. I got my TNT2 Ultra in 1999 for 250 bucks, basically the same price that the TI4600 were when they were released in 2002 (after the month or two of artificially-inflated new product pricing, of course).