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OP
Q

quovadis

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Aug 19, 2020
ummm. I just read that only 20% of all 10700k made will reach a 5.1. That is a bit scary
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
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In brief, your instructions are valid only if a user knows where to go into the bios.
Oh no, they were 100% valid, you just needed to find the options. That's all a part of it everyone has to go through. Most can... some, can't. :)

As far as 5.1 Ghz.. voltage. You may be hitting a voltage wall where it takes a lot more to get to the next clock speed.

RE cooling... I hope when you reseated it you cleaned off and reapplied the thermal paste...

Second, with 240mm AIO, 90C during stress testing seems right. I think you're going to be disappointed going 360 as it likely isn't going to net you more clocks. If you are lucky, you may get to 5.1 GHz.


Please stop double/triple/quadruple posting. Get your thoughts together in one post... or if you need to EDIT that post to add new information (assuming nobody posted after). This stream of consciousness posting can be tough to follow, lol. Remember, this is a forum, not an instant message client. :thup:



EDIT:
ummm. I just read that only 20% of all 10700k made will reach a 5.1. That is a bit scary
Correct. According to silicon lottery, ~22% reach 5.1 GHz.........but that is at 1.23V, lol. Your chip is a silicon lottery loser it seems... be happy at 5 GHz.
 
OP
Q

quovadis

Registered
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Aug 19, 2020
A few days ago before overclocking, had you asked me what LLC is I would have said a Limited Liability corporation. Had you mentioned Tj. Max, I would have told you it was a discount clothing store. Had you mentioned V core, It would have made me think of a V 12 engine....and so on and so forth.

So getting to 5.1 or 5.2 is all about cooling? So if the cpu was cold we could do it?
Why don't people put the aio in a freezer? with two tubes going out to the pc? Or why arent huge external radiators used with many fans? Or why should we not use a car inter cooler?
 
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EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
A few days ago before overclocking, had you asked me what LLC is I would have said a Limited Liability corporation. Had you mentioned Tj. Max, I would have told you it was a discount clothing store. Had you mentioned V core, It would have made me think of a V 12 engine....and so on and so forth.

So getting to 5.1 or 5.2 is all about cooling? So if the cpu was cold we could do it?
Why don't people put the aio in a freezer? with two tubes going out to the pc? Or why arent huge external radiators used with many fans? Or why should we not use a car inter cooler?
I guess it's a good thing most(all?) of those were mentioned/defined in one way or another in this thread (the overclocking guide I linked too?). ;)

Cooling and voltage, yes. But the problem is the tiny die and getting the heat out. There is a point of diminishing returns.

If the CPU was cold you can pump all kinds of voltage through it, sure. We've cooled CPUs with Dry Ice, liquid nitrogen/helium... look around the extreme overclocking sections here and see... the information is alllllllllllllllll at your fingertips should you look for it. :)

As far as a freezer, that is possible too. Many have done it with custom water loops (since AIOs you can really expand or have enough tubing to put the rad anywhere). Then, however, you need to worry about condensation forming and destroying your motherboard. Huge rads are USD, but see my second line here... the problem is the ability of the die itself to get heat out......a huge rad is still ambient cooling. We've used car/motorcycle heater cores/coolers in the past, but since, over the past 15 years or so, there are rads made specifically to fit cases and such.
 
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OP
Q

quovadis

Registered
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Again fascinating, and thank you, I will read accordingly. I am sticking at 5.0.
5.1 seems like it's going to be another mountain to climb.
After what you said before, I actually cancelled my 360 aio cooler purchase and this saved me $154.
Id'd rather stay at 5.0 high eighties with a 240.
I'm very curious on some of these custom water builds, I shall definitely look into this, although i find it quite intimidating.

So you are saying that because of the relatively small surface area of the cpu, this is what makes it difficult to cool? Makes sense.
I suppose they could make the aio cooler plate in synthetic diamond, it is much much more thermally conductive than copper or any other known metal.
Or ask intel to make a huge 4"x4" cpu with more surface area.

Cpu's should be accessible on both sides, so we would pull the heat away from top and bottom...It's a question of designing a mother board and processor differently. Probably also enlarging top plate of cpu, which seems to be made of plated nickel?
 
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OP
Q

quovadis

Registered
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
So a quick question.
I am happily oc'ed at 5, and a couple of hours ago I had a cinebench score of 5169. The highest I have ever had. I rebooted pc just now and I got a score of 4922?
Is this normal variation?

Second question (can't find a google answer).
Reseated AIO a third time. All cores are 38-42 idle apart from core 1 which is often at 65c? At least one of the cores is always 25 c hotter than the others at idle. Is this normal?
 
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OP
Q

quovadis

Registered
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
fans and overclocking

I just wanted to share something. I'm sure you already know this.
So i have a coolermaster 240 Aio with sickle cell (or sickle something or other fans)
I am overclocked at 5.
My temps during a stress test were a tad high up to 90.
I did a whole bunch of reasearch and changed the aio fans with the Scythe Kaze Flex 120mm Fan, Quiet Case/CPU Cooler Fan, PWM 300-1200 RPM. These are configured to push air through the radiator.
The difference is day and night. During a stress test I could not go above 75c.
They are dead silent too.
I also have a pair of these fans which I have not tried yet
Noctua NF-F12 iPPC 3000 PWM, Heavy Duty Cooling Fan, 4-Pin, 3000 RPM (120mm,)
I know they will roar like lions.

By the way, my previous case fans were cheap corsair ones, they have also been exchanged for the Kaze. I used to get humming, and thought it was the power supply. It was those cheap corsair and sickle fans.
SHAME ON YOU COOLERMASTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Putting an innocent newbie through all this trouble!!!!!!!!

09/2
Tried the Noctua NF-F12 iPPC 3000 PWM. Not really a significant difference between these and the Kaze. Maybe a degree at most. They are loud, but a nice loud.
I tried push and pull wih the two noctua fans pushing the air through the radiator, and the two kaze inside the case pulling air. Every cinebench crashed at 5. Temps made it crash. Therefore push pull did not work at all.

What did work was PUSH PUSH. All 4 fans were pushing air through the radiator. It lowered temps by 2c. Not a lot.

The conclusion is that I am going to return the 2 noctua fans and save $50. Then probably do a PUSH/PUSH with the two sickle flow fans and the two scythe fans.

I DID NOTICE THAT, with the front of the case (thermal glass) OFF i was 2c cooler than with the thermal glass on. is this typical? So why do they put glass panels on cases? May as well remove it and look straight in.

I guess the next step is to try a 360 with 3 Kaze fans pushing air?
 
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OP
Q

quovadis

Registered
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
seems like the next step is to delid the processor?
It seems amazing to me that Intel do not use better thermal paste, and make absolutely no effort to lower temperatures. If they did, overclocking would be easier without resorting to long radiators.
Not quite sure I understand the logic.
They should advertise temperatures instead of Hz. Stock 30c and under load 60c. Let the consumer decide what to clock at. Duh! Intel.
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
seems like the next step is to delid the processor?
It seems amazing to me that Intel do not use better thermal paste, and make absolutely no effort to lower temperatures.
Your next step is not to delid. First, your CPU uses solder TIM, not paste. It's good. The problem is the amount of wattage you need to cool through a small die as I said earlier. Second, if we're 100 posts into basic overclocking, I fear what delidding will bring, lol. Delidding doesn't help much at all in this case. A few/several degrees. It isn't worth the risk (for most anyone).

Not quite sure I understand the logic.
You don't understand because the logic you're applying is wrong. :)

They should advertise temperatures instead of Hz. Stock 30c and under load 60c. Let the consumer decide what to clock at. Duh! Intel.
That's cute, but no. :)
 
OP
Q

quovadis

Registered
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Aug 19, 2020
Your next step is not to delid. First, your CPU uses solder TIM, not paste. It's good. The problem is the amount of wattage you need to cool through a small die as I said earlier. Second, if we're 100 posts into basic overclocking, I fear what delidding will bring, lol. Delidding doesn't help much at all in this case. A few/several degrees. It isn't worth the risk (for most anyone).


You don't understand because the logic you're applying is wrong. :)

That's cute, but no. :)

Wow, thanks for sharing. I was just ready to order that Bauer apparatus as well as the grizzly droplet metal stuff. I did not know this one could not be de-lided.
So the moral of the story is that it's very difficult to lower temps in the 10700K? That is why they do not overclock over 5?
It would have been better to buy an older processor that was readily de-lidable, lower the temps, and overclock the old processor to 5.2-5.3?
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
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Location
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It can be delidded, but isn't worth it. The gains just aren't there for normal users.

As mentioned previously, your CPU is a silicon lottery loser in the first place so there is a lot going against you in such an endeavor.

lol, no it would not have been better to order an older processor to delid and overclock.


Enjoy what you have. :)
 
OP
Q

quovadis

Registered
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
It can be delidded, but isn't worth it. The gains just aren't there for normal users.

As mentioned previously, your CPU is a silicon lottery loser in the first place so there is a lot going against you in such an endeavor.

lol, no it would not have been better to order an older processor to delid and overclock.


Enjoy what you have. :)

Yes, time to enjoy and stop overthinking. Does it make sense to you that those industrial Noctua fans did not lower the temps as opposed to cheap stock fans? Why do people on youtube say deliding lowers temps by 20c? So this is true only on certain select intel processors?
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
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Location
Buckeyes!
Yes it makes sense that changing fans didn't lower temps much.

Because some processors can have that much of a temp drop. But typically it is with processors that use TIM instead of solder TIM and 20C is typically a 'best case' result. Commonly you see somewhere around 10C give or take a couple.
 
OP
Q

quovadis

Registered
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Yes it makes sense that changing fans didn't lower temps much.

Because some processors can have that much of a temp drop. But typically it is with processors that use TIM instead of solder TIM and 20C is typically a 'best case' result. Commonly you see somewhere around 10C give or take a couple.

Two last questions :
Had this processor been one of the winners. Would it overclock to 5.2-5.3 because it's temps are lower? In other words, are winning processors overclockable to higher hz because they are cooler? Or do they simply overclock higher and tolerate higher temps?

2. 100% is 100%. When XTU stresses cpu at 100% temps go up to 75. When cinebench renders, temps go higher. Do some of these stress test applications go over 100%? Is tjmax always 100c? Or does it vary from winner to loser?
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
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Location
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Yes. Voltage and temperatures go hand in hand. More voltage = higher temps. Since temps are lower with lower voltage, you can push higher clocks under a given cooler.

100% is 100%. The difference lay in what these stress tests are actually doing with that 100%. I don't use XTU as a stress test, but simply as a monitoring tool. TJmax for a given processor doesn't change. In other words, all 10700K's have a TJMax of 100C. The difference between them is in the quality of the silicon. These dies are taken from a large wafer... some of the dies are better than others... its just how making CPUs work.
 

connta

Registered
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Aug 13, 2020
Two last questions :
Had this processor been one of the winners. Would it overclock to 5.2-5.3 because it's temps are lower? In other words, are winning processors overclockable to higher hz because they are cooler? Or do they simply overclock higher and tolerate higher temps?

2. 100% is 100%. When XTU stresses cpu at 100% temps go up to 75. When cinebench renders, temps go higher. Do some of these stress test applications go over 100%? Is tjmax always 100c? Or does it vary from winner to loser?

usually, processors will push further with voltage increase and consequentially draw more power and produce more heat so you wont be able to cool them for the frequency you want with commercial cooling solutions but some processors (or cores within a processor) wont go over certain frequency no matter how much voltage you give them even if the desired frequency is not considered high...

there are retailers that will sell you pre tested (binned) processors that will guarantee certain frequency on certain number of cores but those also come at a premium price... tbh, if you want to have a beastly OC'd processor, thats the route i would take next time you shop, that way you will know exactly what voltage to set for max frequency the processor will bear and its usually not that much of a price premium either (if you dont go for top 5% bin that is)...
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
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Location
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there are retailers that will sell you pre tested (binned) processors that will guarantee certain frequency on certain number of cores but those also come at a premium price... tbh, if you want to have a beastly OC'd processor, thats the route i would take next time you shop, that way you will know exactly what voltage to set for max frequency the processor will bear and its usually not that much of a price premium either (if you dont go for top 5% bin that is)...
Silicon Lottery, who I assume you are referring to, guarantees clock speeds on all cores and threads. They do use an AVX offset.
 

connta

Registered
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Aug 13, 2020
yes, was referring to them and this article did mention per core performance https://www.tomshardware.com/news/cheaper-to-buy-binned-i5-10600k-than-amazon-and-newegg

"As the binning stats above show, the good news here is that even if you score an i5-10600K from someone other than Silicon Lottery, unless you have bad luck Brian syndrome, you can hit 4.7 GHz on your 10600K (and 4.8 GHz on two cores), which is why Silicon Lottery is able to offer such a good price. If you want the best i5-10600K, on the other hand, you'll have yourself one of the top 8% of chips that's capable of running at 5.1 GHz on all cores at once (and 5.2 GHz on two cores) for $420."

also this is from their site for 5.0 10900kf

"CPU Core Ratio: By Core Usage

Turbo Ratio Limit 0: 52
Turbo Ratio Cores 0: 3
Turbo Ratio Limit 1: 51
Turbo Ratio Cores 1: 6
Turbo Ratio Limit 2: 50
Turbo Ratio Cores 2: 10"
 
OP
Q

quovadis

Registered
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Aug 19, 2020
Sorry to ask, but today is a new day and I do have more questions:
At 5hz, I have performed a few short tests like Aida 64 and the like. I have not lets these tests run past 5 minutes. Under stress temps go up to 75-76c. I'm using a cooler master 240 front mount with 4 fans on it. All 4 fans are pushing air into/through the radiator.

Last night I was playing Pubg for an hour or so. I live in Fl and ambient room temp is normally around 80f.
I noticed the room temps went up to 83f.
The house AC is turned on at 75f, but in the office here it gets hotter.
Back to my question :
In Bios I have saved profile 1 @ 5, with 1.30v and an LLC of 6.
I want to create some more profiles one at 49 one at 48 and one at 47. For example, whilst working and reading emails I do not want to be at 5, but rather lower, so as not to output too much heat.
APART from the multiplier (47-49 or 50) What else needs changing?
Do i keep "override voltage" at 1.30? Does the LLC change?
This morning I shorted those two pins again, rebooted, and realized that this pc does not go under 4.7hz...it boots up again at 4.7?
Yet another question : What is the minimum Hz this chip will run at? What happens if I put the core ratio multiplier at 3 for example? Will the voltage drop automatically? Or do I have to dial in a new voltage adequate for 3?

thank you
 
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