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I agree that it's hard to tell whether differences are due to binning, the PCB used, or other factors. However, we can tell whether one complete module gives consistently better results than another, and that's what matters, eh?

I think anyone who buys RAM based on the claims for the PCB used has been overly influenced by hype. Most DIMMs come with claims that they have ultra low noise boards, extreme performance chips, and precision yada yada. But it's only by looking at the results that we can tell which modules perform the best.
 
Currently, I own two sets of memory, both 2x256 meg sets of BH-5 that do not use a Brainpower-made PCB. One set is Corsair PC3500 memory, the other set is Mushkin PC3200 memory. Both sets overclock nicely, each topping out at ~275 MHz in DC with 1T, 2-2-2. Neither of these sets of memory use a brainpower PCB, yet both overclock well.

This is anecdotal evidence, but my memory on a JEDEC standardized PCB overclocks quite respectably in a high-voltage environment. Is there a way to prove that my memory ICs would overclock better if they were on a BP PCB? Unfortunately, no there is not, aside from desoldering them and running them through a manufacturing machine that will re-solder them onto a PB PCB :-/.


When the memory representatives come to this thread, they will tell you that their companies exhaustively test different memory PCBs in order to find the ones that overclock the best, and handle a high-voltage environment the best for our purposes.

At the same time, the BP PCB is dirty cheap. There is always a motive behind any information that we are given - do the big enthusiast memory comapanies prefer BP PCBs because of the price, or because of the performance (or... both?)?

Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I have faith in them to make good products - products that will overclock well, but that will at the same time cost a reasonable amount of money.

There is some evidence that the PB PCB either overclocks as well as any other PCB, or overclocks better. OCZ was the first to start using BP PCBs, the rest of the industry followed suit when they realized that the PCB was either cheap and useable for overclocking, or cheap and better for overclocking.

The only BH-5 that you'll find on a BP PCB is the OCZ Plat PC3500 Limited Edition. OCZ Plat PC3500 Limited Edition memory is widely regarded as the best overclocking BH-5 out there, alongside Mushkin's Black PC3500 L2.



Redwraith - your findings are very interesting. I wonder how much of a difference the embedded resistors make in particular. I would guess that that's the main difference right there.

BrainPower indeed appears to be a sketchy company. Then again, their market isn't the consumer, it's the manufacturer. They don't need public relations, a flashy website, or good grammer to sell their product to the manufacturer. Food for thought - DFI makes really excellent overclocking motherboards, yet the box of their latest and most popular product (their nForce4 motherboard) is covered in spelling/grammer errors ;)
 
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Super Nade said:
I read the legit reviews article. See for yourself, the tests are pretty ambivalent!
Have they taken into account binning? I guess not! What exact tests did they run? Many holes in their approach. I find that review unsatisfactory.

Nate and his LR fan club are not going to be happy with you... :)

I have had similar doubts about whether the BP PCB issue was being overblown, but at the same time, like felinusz, share the view that in this competitive memory market companies like OCZ and G.Skill are not going to put their best chips on a comparatively inferior PCB and still expect to increase sales.

What I believe is that the benefits of BP are really only limited to memory based on chips like the Samsung TCCD. I say that because I don't think Winbond BH or UTT (TwinMOS for example) need the BP, but if you compare early reviews of Corsair or Mushkin non-BP ram to later versions after they switched to BP, their TCCD based ram's performance increased.

I think that it is just a quirk of TCCD and BP that they work better together. I would still suggest that combination when looking for Samsung TCCx based ram over non BP stuff.
 
lol Reefa. I'd be pleased if Nate were as happy with me as dounger and his mates at Mushkin are, with you :p

Now, I agree with what felinusz and you are saying. JEDEC is akin to an ISO (International standards organization) like IEEE. Why would their recommendations be inferior? I don't think the isuue here is with quality. Maybe, both BP and JEDEC PCB's performe the same. Maybe JEDEC PCB's are slightly better. I feel the issue here is purely monetary.

What irks me is that people tout the BP as being outrageously high performance, put a spin on it and try to enforce this myth of its superiority. Even with TCCD, I think it has to do with binning. Period.

I found these interesting links :-

Simmtester's page. Read all the articles in this link.

JEDEC's free download site

Very interesting (general in scope) paper from Rutger's university. A must read.

Keep it coming folks!
 
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Ehh im fine with it, we like scrutiny its always good for us. Im talking to Nate to see if he as any more information that could help clear up our article.

@Super Nade
DIE BLASPHEMER!!! ... jk feel free to let me know what your specific problems with the tests and i will pass them on to Nate. Who knows he may want to revisit the whole thing.
 
infinitevalence said:
Ehh im fine with it, we like scrutiny its always good for us. Im talking to Nate to see if he as any more information that could help clear up our article.

@Super Nade
DIE BLASPHEMER!!! ... jk feel free to let me know what your specific problems with the tests and i will pass them on to Nate. Who knows he may want to revisit the whole thing.

Very commendable and open minded response to a valid question. I wish more people reacted that way instead of attacking the messenger.

Nate was real good about revisiting the whold Redline and DDR600 issue with the 4x multiplier that one of the guys brought up in the article discussion. That kind of attitude says alot of good things in my mind.
 
As much as we like to think were perfect were not. When i originally reviewed that Skyhawk power supply i did not notice that it only had one solder point, i did notice that all the 12v readings were the same, some one had to point it out that i had missed the single solder point. We all make mistakes and we cant always attack every thing from every angle some times we don't even think of them. At the end of the day were just like you guys, hardcore geeks who bust our asses to research and test the best products and help people get the best performance. That was Nate's goal with the original article, to show people that using the BP pcb improved performance and overclocking, thus giving them useful information to help their buying decisions. If i can i will revisit some of the data and see if anything new comes up and like i said I'm happy to bring Q's to Nate and the memory MFGs.
 
Super Nade said:
lol Reefa. I'd be pleased if Nate were as happy with me as dounger and his mates at Mushkin are, with you :p

I almost forgot to tell you how funny I found that comment. I about fell out of my chair! You get points for "quick wit" on that one.
 
infinitevalence said:
As much as we like to think were perfect were not. When i originally reviewed that Skyhawk power supply i did not notice that it only had one solder point, i did notice that all the 12v readings were the same, some one had to point it out that i had missed the single solder point. We all make mistakes and we cant always attack every thing from every angle some times we don't even think of them. At the end of the day were just like you guys, hardcore geeks who bust our asses to research and test the best products and help people get the best performance. That was Nate's goal with the original article, to show people that using the BP pcb improved performance and overclocking, thus giving them useful information to help their buying decisions. If i can i will revisit some of the data and see if anything new comes up and like i said I'm happy to bring Q's to Nate and the memory MFGs.

Mate,

Now that you have put it so well and graciously, I will try to raise some specific Q's without wasting your time. All I ask is for you to allow me, a bit time present my questions in a coherent manner.
:thup:

Reefa,
Do I get to redeem my funny points :)
 
Super Nade,

Thank you very much for reading the memory PCB article and posting your thoughts on our article. In the end Legit Reviews strives to bring new issues to light and make people think about. Let me start out by talking on some of the comments you made.

“I believe BP is used because it's cheaper, not better.” –SN

You hit the nail dead on with this statement and I pointed that out here: “...Brain Power PCB's are one third the cost of the reference design PCB's. The Brain Power PCB is shorter than the reference design, thereby reducing height issues on custom/special applications. They also require fewer components, thus lowering cost and making it faster to build since it needs less time on the assembly line.”

“Their PCB's are supposed to overclock better than the JEDEC PCB's. Apart from one sketchy write-up by legit reviews, I see no more proof.”

Hum.. Harsh man! Our article is far from sketchy and before our article was posted we did a TON of in-depth testing to verify our results. The article started out as a 6-way PC-3200 TCCD memory shoot out, but during testing it was clear that performance was identical during testing. That didn’t make for an interesting article. I then went on and overclocked our test samples. I then found the max overclock with the RST Pro2 card and a day later when I was plugging data into graphs I noticed that some stood out. This was odd to me so I re-ran the tests with multiple samples. I actually had 5 sets of Corsair XMS XL and 3 sets of the OCZ/PQI memory that I was sent and that I purchased off Newegg. All of the memory kits showed identical results.

Trying to figure out what the difference was I noted the PCB differences. I then called the memory companies to confirm what I was seeing on the test bench. They called me back the next day (they being Corsair & Kingston) and confirmed my results. They also went a step further and switched IC’s. From the BP PCB to the JEDEC PB and vice versa. If the difference in performance was in the IC then testing would have shown this change. Just in case you are wondering about the SPD timings, both were SPD programmed to be identical.

After we found the differences and they were confirmed by many memory companies we went ahead and published our article. Just before we published the article Corsair informed us that they changed over to the BP PCB on their XL part to make it faster. A couple weeks later the released the PC-4400C25, which could only be reached in mass on the BP PCB. Numerous other companies jumped onto the bandwagon since performance went up and cost went down. You stated that that you see "no more proof" to back up our findings. The proof is in the memory that is now for sale in the market. Multiple companies launched new parts thanks to the BP PCB's being found to perform better.

As you can tell our article was not sketchy, and we were one of the first to catch on to the performance factor involved in Brain Power PCB’s. Hopefully know you will understand what goes on behind an article that we write. It isn’t just something we write up in an hour and be done with. This article took weeks to complete from our first discovery to the date it was published. After it was published I received phone calls from OCZ, Corsair, Kingston, PQI, Mushkin, Kingmax, and others confirming the findings and thanking us.

As for other IC’s performance on BP versus JEDEC PCB’s… I couldn’t honestly tell you because other than UTT IC’s no other good enthusiast parts are on the market. Did you read our UTT article? ;)

Let me know if you have any other questions!

Nathan Kirsch

Just got this from Nate, you wouldn’t believe the bad words he used to describe you, i had to edit them all out. I would suggest sleeping with a knife or gun under your pillow from now on :p
 
I actually had 5 sets of Corsair XMS XL and 3 sets of the OCZ/PQI memory that I was sent and that I purchased off Newegg. All of the memory kits showed identical results.

I don't think anyone here was trying to insult anyone, and I am sure that you guys do a lot of research when writing articles. The article AFAIK didn't say anything aboot multiple sets of ram being tested from the same company. I thought that legit reviews had only tested one set of each. Each set of ram from the same manufacturer will oc differently anyway.

5 Corsair, and 3 is it OCZ, or PQI?...but still the others you guys only used 1 each, right? Also, how many of these did you buy, and how many were 'sent' to you, and by 'sent' do you mean that the manufacturer sent them? Don't get me wrong, but for something this new, 1 stick each is still not enough to convince me that Brain Power's pcb's are better than JEDEC.
 
Mate,

From your article:
Corsair Memory's Application Specialists went through the same characteristic testing that we did and came up with the same conclusions. This verifies our test data and our hypothesis that the modules using Brain Power PCB's offer better high-end performance without sacrificing low-end performance levels.

Clearly your explanation via Infinitevalence is more detailed than the above. Readers would like to know who you contacted and what their findings were with details and more numbers.It would be awesome if you could pull out some electrical specs and find out precisely why BP PCB's show up as better clockers. In the above paragraph, you have made no mention of the fact that (in green):

Infinitevalence said:
Trying to figure out what the difference was I noted the PCB differences. I then called the memory companies to confirm what I was seeing on the test bench. They called me back the next day (they being Corsair & Kingston) and confirmed my results. They also went a step further and switched IC’s. From the BP PCB to the JEDEC PB and vice versa. If the difference in performance was in the IC then testing would have shown this change. Just in case you are wondering about the SPD timings, both were SPD programmed to be identical.
That would have been nice.

I hope you understand where I am coming from. I am not trying to trash your article or site. I, quite frankly, devour anything you or xbit labs publish. Perhaps you misunderstood my use of the word sketchy. I still feel your article is incomplete because I don't know WHY the BP PCB's perform better or if this is limited to TCCD only?

If these questions are answered, the article would be worth its weight in gold.
As an enthusiast, I not only want to know how something works but also why it works?

I'd like to apologize if you feel I have have slighted and belittled your efforts. That was not my intention. I'm just pointing to unanswered questions.

Best Regards,

S-N
 
S-N,

"if you could pull out some electrical specs and find out precisely why BP PCB's show up as better clockers."

With all due respect to professionalism and NDA's that I have signed, I don't feel comfortable going into the specifics on why/what makes Brain Power PCB's faster. That question is best left to those with EE degrees and work at Brain Power. If the "secret" was public knowledge several other companies would jump all over it. We all love Bush's Baked Beans, but we don't know the secret recipe! (Sorry just saw that ad on tv)

Also no offence taken at all! I too am an enthusiast (hope it's obvious) and strive to point out what I find that can make our hobby/jobs a little more interesting!

RedWraith

"1 stick each is still not enough to convince me that Brain Power's pcb's are better than JEDEC."

I personally had at least 3 kits of each module. I can't recall how many were bought and were from the companies off the top of my head. (Please note the review was published nearly 8 months ago) As far as TCCD modules that I've had here for testing has been close to 40kits. I know some memory companies did dozens more than that and with many different bins.

/edit Just thought you should all know that i have been to the factory where they make Bush's Baked Beans and the rats are as large as small dogs. So i would not EVER eat them... maybe thats the secret :p

/ 'nother edit
Nate said he is going to talk to the memory companies we have good relationships with and ask if they have been testing with other IC's like the BH-5/UTT's. He has not done any specific testing other than with TCCD.
 
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Mate,

If not the specifics, how about a vague idea? :D There are many who can make intelligent guesses ;). Sorry about Bush's baked beans. It contains meat stock and I'm a vegetarian :D. If you do get a chance to test other IC's, I'd appreciate it if you could lay your hands on some of that stuff and test them out personally.

Thanks for responding,

S-N

@infinitevalence,
I sleep with a G3 under my pillow, so beware!
 
This has been one of the more meaningful threads in recent times.

Good job SN with raising the issue and kudos to LR for their taking the time to respond so well.

Everyone is better informed as the result of this thread.

Hopefully more info will be forthcoming.
 
well why not try this then. as copied from here
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=308361

get both these sets of ram both from OCZ
-DDR PC3200 Platinium Edition rev2 (2-2-2-6)
Samsung 4ns TCCD
-EL PC3700 Platinum (2-3-3-8)
Samsung TCCD 4ns (Revision "F") (Uses Brain Power PCB)

Lets test both sets @200fsb cas 2-2-2-6 (as a base test to see if there is a difference) in Intel and AMD rigs. They must be the same Intel rig for both sets of ram as well as with the AMD. Since they use the same ic's cas2226 should not be a problem for the pc3700 ram. We would need to see ram throughput and max O/C in both rigs@what cas timings and volts. maybe there are other things im missing about this type of test?

*edit*
and check with someone at ocz to see if the pc3200 now uses the revision "F" ic's. It seems that the pc3200 doesnt use BP pcb's.
 
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Evilsizer said:

That sounds like a smashing idea!

Super Nade said:
Sorry about Bush's baked beans. It contains meat stock and I'm a vegetarian :D

Super Nade, You're a vegetarian! *gasps in horror* I...I can't believe it! who would have though that there be vegetarians in this here forum!?! :p j/k
 
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