miniATX or ATX?

[Viper69]

My currrent/ancient computer is below in my sig. It's been fine, but it's time I start making a new one.

This build around I want something much smaller if possible. Maybe a small form factor, like a mini ATX.

I don't know if mini ATX/small form factor is the way to go. I like to game (stratagy and FPS style games too).

My concern w/the small form factor is I won't be able expand as technology gets better (I typically make a build to last 3 years in terms of clock speed, games don't improve too much within a time span of 3 years), and equally as important is will I be able to keep my components cool enough too?

I'm not an extreme overclocker. But I don't mind OC'ing my system to get more performance out of it. Provided I can still maintain a quiet system. I"m still interested in maintaining an air cooled system. I'm not sure if water cooled is ready just yet for me.

I've also thought of getting a smaller tower that has maybe just 1 or 2, 5.25 slots, and 1 or 2 3.5 slots.

I want enough for a CD/DVD RW burner, speed fan controller, 3.5 floppy and/or multi card reader.

Any ideas or thoughts would be helpful. I haven't built a rig in too long haha.

Thanks

 

[QuietIce]

If you're not set on top-end overclocking then mATX would be OK. Look for an 890GX board with MOSFET heatsinks (I know Biostar and MSI make boards like this) or add your own heatsinks if you prefer ASUS or Gigabyte - neither of which put those heatsinks on their mATX boards.


Since you only build every three to four years I'd recommend an X6 if your budget allows. Games are slowly moving to beyond-dual-core and by 2014-15 I suspect most of them will have made it.


Cases and heatsinks are kind of inter-related now. The best heatsinks are vertical sinks with a 120mm fan. Unfortunately, they will not fit in a case that's less than 8" wide - and 8" is pushing the limit, 8.1" or more is better. Not sure how many small mid-tower cases fit that bill but keep it in mind as you look.

Another option, but not nearly as cheap, is one of the Corsair sealed water-cooling units, the H50 or H70. The H70 will cool as well as the best high-end air coolers and doesn't need the extra vertical space. The H50 is cheaper but will still out-perform the best 92mm heatsinks. These units are completely sealed at the factory so none of the maintenance of "normal" water cooling and they're very easy to install.


I think that's the basics. I've skipped video and HDDs because I don't keep up with them too much. I'm sure there are others who'll fill in those blanks.



Edit
Forgot to add in the PSU. Here's a link to our PSU lists, all tested out very well by some of the best in that area of expertise.
http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=589708

 

[Viper69]

What is a MOSFET heatsink? Is it a heatsink which provides cooling to chips? And why don't Asus or Gigabyte provide them. Trying to figure out if there's an advantage or disadvantage to owning a board which comes with this?

By vertical you mean the heat sink spans the length of the mobo, perpendicular to the chip, but parallel to the board? My case the mobo is mounted vertically.

I wonder how quiet water cooled units are?

 

[QuietIce]

The MOSFETs are the microchips located between the CPU and the rear I/O ports. They are the guts of the power circuitry for the CPU/cpuNB. If you're running stock it doesn't matter too much but if you're overclocking you'll be increasing the load on the power circuitry, which means they will be getting hotter as well. Without a heatsink you may experience voltage fluctuations and possible loss of life-span.


By vertical I mean extending from the CPU toward the removable side of the case.


Not any more quiet than air-cooled units using the same number of fans. If you're referring to the Corsair units they still have only one 120x120mm space for cooling. Their main advantage is the smaller vertical space requirement without loosing the 120mm fan. There are also no RAM restrictions with the Corsair units. Some high-end air coolers extend over the RAM slots limiting the RAM that can be used.

Custom water cooling allows bigger radiators so you could use two or three (quieter) fans without giving up airflow and heat dissipation - but it's also more expensive than air cooling or sealed "water-cooled" units like the Corsairs.

 

[Viper69]

The MOSFETs are the microchips located between the CPU and the rear I/O ports. They are the guts of the power circuitry for the CPU/cpuNB. If you're running stock it doesn't matter too much but if you're overclocking you'll be increasing the load on the power circuitry, which means they will be getting hotter as well. Without a heatsink you may experience voltage fluctuations and possible loss of life-span.


By vertical I mean extending from the CPU toward the removable side of the case.


Not any more quiet than air-cooled units using the same number of fans. If you're referring to the Corsair units they still have only one 120x120mm space for cooling. Their main advantage is the smaller vertical space requirement without loosing the 120mm fan. There are also no RAM restrictions with the Corsair units. Some high-end air coolers extend over the RAM slots limiting the RAM that can be used.

Custom water cooling allows bigger radiators so you could use two or three (quieter) fans without giving up airflow and heat dissipation - but it's also more expensive than air cooling or sealed "water-cooled" units like the Corsairs.

Thanks! I think I'll just stick with air cooling again.

When I built my rig years ago, I was concerned with how far the fan+heat sink projected out from the board, especially during a move.

With the heat sinks being so large/long, are there like mounting supports/brackets to help stabilize them? It sure sounds like a "heavy" piece of metal to be protruding away from a "single" point on the mobo.

Ah, so I'd need heatsinks for those chips then if I want to OC a bit. Any suggestions for brand of heatsinks and models for these? I presume the choice would also depend upon the mobo selected perhaps too

Oh you mean projecting right out from board, wow re: the CPU heatsink+fan.

I hadn't realized they could be so long now.

I wonder why Asus and some others don't include those heatsinks.

 

[jaymz9350]

Thanks! I think I'll just stick with air cooling again.

When I built my rig years ago, I was concerned with how far the fan+heat sink projected out from the board, especially during a move.

With the heat sinks being so large/long, are there like mounting supports/brackets to help stabilize them? It sure sounds like a "heavy" piece of metal to be protruding away from a "single" point on the mobo.

Ive never been to worried about the weight, most large heatsinks like that use a backplate which sits behind the mother board and bolts to the heatsink at the 4 corners to spread the wight. now I may worry if I was taking it on a car trip but I've never given it a second though just moving it around the house.

 

[Viper69]

Ive never been to worried about the weight, most large heatsinks like that use a backplate which sits behind the mother board and bolts to the heatsink at the 4 corners to spread the wight. now I may worry if I was taking it on a car trip but I've never given it a second though just moving it around the house.

Right..I mean moving in a car, as in MOVING across the country or even within state hah. I didn't know they had backplates to support the weight, thanks.

so the best way to match your heatsink to the case, is to find out the dimensions of both I take it, or are there other factors I'm missing?

This has been very helpful guys, I appreciate it.

 

[QuietIce]

If you're moving the computer in a car I'd lay it on the left case side so the heatsink is sticking straight up - less shock that way. All AMD boards (except really, really cheap ones) have had metal backplates for years now as stock equipment. If your system doesn't it's the last generation like that, the s939's all have them.

When looking at the dimensions remember to include the extra width needed for the motherboard base plate (it never sits against the left case panel) and allow for the socket+CPU height. From experience we've found that 8" will usually fit a 120mm tower but sometimes it's scraping the right panel when it's closed.

For the MOSFET heatsinks, if the board you get doesn't have them you'll need to measure the spaces you have to put heatsinks in. Some boards are pretty open and others have the power coils interspersed, which will need smaller heatsinks. Newegg and other places carry heatsinks of various sizes - you'll have to measure and match.

 

[Viper69]

Yeah I've moved before and did as you described. Yeah my board is very old as you can see haha.

Thanks again.

I like Asus boards, though I ALMOST bought an MSI before my friend gave this one.

I noticed on a recent review of an Intel board, I think P67? from Asus, that the familiar ancient DOS looking BIOS's user interface has been replaced with a more GUI-like interface. I know this isn't the case for all board manufacturer's out there. BUT, is this new GUI the norm now??

 

[QuietIce]

All mine still look more or less like they did 10 years ago and, quite honestly, I'd prefer to keep it that way. There's a time and place for being lazy (using a mouse) and fancy (higher graphics) but poking around in the BIOS isn't one of them.

 

[Viper69]

All mine still look more or less like they did 10 years ago and, quite honestly, I'd prefer to keep it that way. There's a time and place for being lazy (using a mouse) and fancy (higher graphics) but poking around in the BIOS isn't one of them.

Well if someone is careful, moving a mouse to select a feature shouldn't be a problem? Unless someone is a "happy clicker".


I'm still leaning towards miniATX for now. Do most mobo's (be it mATX or ATX) utilize PWM for automanaging fan speed, or is it feature usually found on higher end boards? Second, is automatic regulation of fan speed ready for "prime time", or is it a feature I'm better off w/out and just getting a fan speed controller?

 

[QuietIce]

I can't comment on that - maybe someone else can. I run my fans full speed all the time.

 

[Viper69]

No problem. I just would think for surfing the net and using MSWord etc I don't need the fans turned all the way up.

 

[QuietIce]

I agree and, honestly, I'd probably run CoolNQuiet if I used my computers that way. Sometimes CnQ will get aloing with an overclock and sometimes it won't - you'd have to try it to see.

 

[Viper69]

I agree and, honestly, I'd probably run CoolNQuiet if I used my computers that way. Sometimes CnQ will get aloing with an overclock and sometimes it won't - you'd have to try it to see.

Thanks Ice.. Curious, what's the AMD equivalent to Intel's Sandybridge?

Also, I heard from some guy that AMD's higher end CPUs ran hot (that's not the case w/my Barton) lately compared to Intel's. Is that true? I wouldn't know.

 

[Theocnoob]

If you're not set on top-end overclocking then mATX would be OK. Look for an 890GX board with MOSFET heatsinks (I know Biostar and MSI make boards like this) or add your own heatsinks if you prefer ASUS or Gigabyte - neither of which put those heatsinks on their mATX boards.

Yes they do. Rampage III Gene for example.

Thanks Ice.. Curious, what's the AMD equivalent to Intel's Sandybridge?

Invisitron. Bulldozer is coming soon and may best Sandybridge.

Also, I heard from some guy that AMD's higher end CPUs ran hot (that's not the case w/my Barton) lately compared to Intel's. Is that true? I wouldn't know.

Right now yes. Intel's new CPUs are 32nm vs 45nm and this reduces heat a lot.

 

[QuietIce]

Thanks Ice.. Curious, what's the AMD equivalent to Intel's Sandybridge?

Bulldozer - due out in 3-4 months.

Also, I heard from some guy that AMD's higher end CPUs ran hot (that's not the case w/my Barton) lately compared to Intel's. Is that true? I wouldn't know.

A full five smilies for that one!!! That is just TOO funny!!! If anything it's just the opposite and has been for as long as I can remember. LOL!

In 15 years of owning non-Intel's (Cyrix then AMD) I've never known a generation yet that ran as hot as a comparable Intel. It's one of the reasons I decided to switch clear back in 1996. The Intel heatsink actually needed a FAN!

Yes they do. Rampage III Gene for example.

That's an Intel board and this is the AMD section. Who cares?

Besides, at $230 for an mATX they should not only have MOSFET heatsinks they should be silver plated!

Right now yes. Intel's new CPUs are 32nm vs 45nm and this reduces heat a lot.

Maybe you didn't notice but I'm from Missouri. Do you have a link???

 

[Theocnoob]

Bulldozer - due out in 3-4 months.



A full five smilies for that one!!! That is just TOO funny!!! If anything it's just the opposite and has been for as long as I can remember. LOL!

In 15 years of owning non-Intel's (Cyrix then AMD) I've never known a generation yet that ran as hot as a comparable Intel. It's one of the reasons I decided to switch clear back in 1996. The Intel heatsink actually needed a FAN!


That's an Intel board and this is the AMD section. Who cares?

Besides, at $230 for an mATX they should not only have MOSFET heatsinks they should be silver plated!

Maybe you didn't notice but I'm from Missouri. Do you have a link???

They still use nm in missoury. Go to Newegg check the thuban core and the sandybridge (i5/i7 2Gen) core. 45 32. Intel gulftown (970 980X) is also 32nm

 

[QuietIce]

And that means what in terms of operating temperatures??? I've seen same-process-sized Intel's run sometimes 10's of °C above same size AMD's for over a decade. Nothing you've said makes me believe the 32nm SB will run cooler than a 45nm Phenom II.

If you've got a link to some reliable site that's actually done some testing then I'm more than willing to read the article. If not then it's all rumor and guesswork that I'm not buying.

 

[jaymz9350]

I'm with you on this quiet, all my Intels have run hotter than a comparable AMD, but they can also handle higher temps than an AMD.