Most powerful BTX form factor PC

[Retrorockit]

Another old Dell BTX is the Dimension 9200 which has the rare (for Dell) 4 phase VRM of the E520, but is Mid Tower case and has room for a full size 2 slot GPU. It's identical to the E520 except for the better expansion slot area.
I forgot to mention the T3500 has an X58 chipset but with a locked Dell BIOS.
I did see photos above of Fujitsu AMD BTXs. Live and learn.
As far as Optiplexes go the fastest I've seen is an Opti 780 at 3.6GHz Q9650.( I did have an Opti 745 up to 3.73 with an X6800, but I just played with it a few minutes). This looks like 9X400fsb. The 780 uses the same PLL chip as the T3400 with the X38 chipset so 400 FSB seems reasonable. I don't know if it was a pinmod, or Soft FSB O/C.

 

[Retrorockit]

http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/pll-pinmod-overclocking-methods-and-examples.393027/

The laptop OCers all had locked BIOS and no other options. 144 page thread of hardcore locked BIOS tricks.

TME Hardmod to unlock FSB by clipping PLL pin. You need your PLL pinout for this.

FSLx (x=a,b,or c) hardwired fsb selection at PLL end of BSEL traces. Bypasses BSEL protection in some chipsets. Throttlestop can do this by turning off C states.

shhhhhhhhhhh don't tell the ATX guys.

 

[Soulblade]

The DELL Optiplex 780 series is basically the equivalent to the Fujitsu-Siemens Computers (FSC) C5731 / E5731 / P5731 series, both being true BTX systems and using the same intel chipset and DDR3 RAM. I will order such a DELL soon since they are cheaper than the FSC machines and I don't have a Core 2 BTX-PC with DDR3 RAM yet.

Intel claims in its marketing brochure that the 780 supports DDR3 1,333 Mhz ... is that true or will it simply run at 1,066 MHz speed then? FSC says its 5731 series supports only 1,066 MHz RAM ... well, actually they don't say a word about 1,333 MHz. This is curious because the chipsets are the same - intel Q45 Express chipsets.

UPDATE: Chipsets are not the same - FSC uses the Intel® Q43, whereas DELL uses the Intel® Q45 Express Chipset w/ICH10DO. So DELL even got the better chipset for a lesser price...

At any rate having a Core 2 Duo or Quad with 1,333 MHz DDR3 RAM in a BTX-PC would be really cool!

 

[peanutbudder]

I'm kinda confused as to why there is so much interest in a really old form factor that was pretty much an OEM standard with locked bios's. I can see the nostalgia factor but newer core i3's would run circles around all of the cpu's that you have listed.

 

[Soulblade]

I'm kinda confused as to why there is so much interest in a really old form factor that was pretty much an OEM standard with locked bios's.

BTX old? It actually is the latest form factor for PCs around. ATX dates back to the year 1995, whereas BTX was first introduced in 2004 ... Both were developped by intel and BTX is naturally superior, as it was specifically developped to overcome the shortcomings and design flaws of the old ATX form factor.

By the way, CPU computing power did not rise in any meaningful way over the past 10 years ... at least not for the average user. You can still throw basically anything at a Core 2 Quad Q6600 from 2006 - more than 11 years ago! - and it won't blink an eye. And the latest Core i3/5/7 chips would run even faster on a BTX board ... better cooling, more headroom for overclocking.

I really don't know why BTX did not take over the market ... Maybe users afraid of change? The same users who update their browser every four weeks and rejoice at every new GUI? Weird.

Oh, by the way ...

I can see the nostalgia factor but newer core i3's would run circles around all of the cpu's that you have listed.

Intel Core i3-7100 @ 3.90GHz - CPU score: 5898

some of the fastest chips for BTX boards:
Intel Core2 Quad Q9650 @ 3.00GHz - CPU score 4220
Intel Core i7-870 @ 2.93GHz - CPU score 5397

Faster? Sure, why, it is newer and costs more money.

Running circles? Not quite. A minor improvement, and if you overclock the old CPUs you can get up to the same level ...

Intel Core2 Quad Q9650 @ 4.0GHz - CPU score 5626
Intel Core i7-870 @ 4.2GHz - CPU score 7735

All figures derived from https://www.cpubenchmark.net

So there ... count me decidedly uninpressed with intel's latest offerings.

 

[Retrorockit]

The issue with the Opti 780 and almost all the 1333fsb Dells is they have a 95W cpu limit. This keeps the Core2Extremes out. There are some 65W quads that will give more room for a SetFSB overclock with VID mod. delidded.com has a good CPU list. Just set 65W in the search parameters. The best BTX I know of is the Dell T3400 which has native support and cooling for 130W CPUs. QX9650 is confirmed @ 4.15GHz and dual GPU capable. It has the Radeon BIOS issue R9-3xx(285) and up give error 43 and won't display BIOS screen. One report that MSI Afterburner fixed this. Not confirmed. X38 chipset has hidden 400fsb support so a BSEL mod should work. But there is a way OEMs can lock this out at the PLL.

This is why I do it.
http://valid.x86.fr/top-cpu/496e746...d652043505520513638303020204020322e393347487a

 

[Soulblade]

Hmmm yeah, that is a bit unfortunate ... but the Core 2 Quad Q9650 will work and it is fast enough. 95W TDP.

 

[Retrorockit]

There is some good news for the Micro BTX Optiplexes etc. Zotac GTX1050 Mini 2GB, and GTX1050Ti Mini 4GB are bothe single slot cards that are only as long as the PCIe slot. 2 slot wide cooler but that's not an issue. They also don't require a PSU purchase.
if you don't overclock you're missing out on the big advantage BTX has. It was designed for 3.8GHz 65nm CPUs @ 130W.

 

[Soulblade]

There is some good news for the Micro BTX Optiplexes etc. Zotac GTX1050 Mini 2GB, and GTX1050Ti Mini 4GB are bothe single slot cards that are only as long as the PCIe slot. 2 slot wide cooler but that's not an issue. They also don't require a PSU purchase.
if you don't overclock you're missing out on the big advantage BTX has. It was designed for 3.8GHz 65nm CPUs @ 130W.

The Fujitsu-Siemens rigs fit just about any graphics card ... incl. Ati HD5970. The lenght is no issue there. I recall cutting out a bit of the CPU-airduct to make it fit though ... no problem, just a bit of plastics. I don't know whether it will work, however, since my card arrived broken and the best card I got now is a HD4770. At any rate you will need an aftermarket PSU ... any ATX-PSU will fit with no adjustments needed. I put an old bequiet! 530W PSU into my P5730. Contrary to the DELLs which require special DELL-PSUs ... And speaking of which, yes, BTX was designed for Pentium 4 at 4+ GHz (which they never achieved, but that is a different story) ... but still you reap the benefits even without overclocking by getting a cooler, quieter and longer-lasting system.

 

[Retrorockit]

The BTX Dells don't require special PSUs. the BTX 24 pin became the new standard ATX PSU. The older ATX Dells has the PSU pinouts changed. The only exception I know of are the 2CPU- FBDIMM T5400,T7400 work stations They have a 2nd 20 pin MB connector. The Dell T3400 has room for 2 full length 2 slot GPUs and 130W CPUs, Aftermarket PSUs fit but watch the 5V rail Amps, Dell uses that a lot more than others. EVGA is good about that. I've run up to 850W PSUs in the Dell Mini Towers. You just need a new shorter DVD to make room for them. I have a 2 GPU HD6990 Dell #0J15H that fits just fine along with an HD6970 to X fire with it.

 

[Soulblade]

The DELL Optiplex require a special PSU ... not for the electric connections, but for the mechanical installation. The case got a lid, which slides into a special recess in the PSU casing, mating PC case and PSU case. Maybe you could forcibly cram a standard PSU in there, too, and just screw it on, if the screw holes are on the same spots, but the interlocking function would not be there .... I got a DELL Optiplex 680 here, and two 745 Towers, and one 745 desktop ... I am talking about the Towers here, obviously.

 

[Retrorockit]

The DELL Optiplex require a special PSU ... not for the electric connections, but for the mechanical installation. The case got a lid, which slides into a special recess in the PSU casing, mating PC case and PSU case. Maybe you could forcibly cram a standard PSU in there, too, and just screw it on, if the screw holes are on the same spots, but the interlocking function would not be there .... I got a DELL Optiplex 680 here, and two 745 Towers, and one 745 desktop ... I am talking about the Towers here, obviously.

I just fold the tab under and mount the PSU with the screws like an ATX. Sometimes it needs a little trim with a hacksaw to help it fold but that's mostly in the workstations. It's certainly not "required". None of my BTX Dells have a Dell PSU in them now..
I use EVGA for Dells because they have enough power on the 5V. rail. Other ATX PSUs can fall short there.

 

[Retrorockit]

I'm kinda confused as to why there is so much interest in a really old form factor that was pretty much an OEM standard with locked bios's. I can see the nostalgia factor but newer core i3's would run circles around all of the cpu's that you have listed.

Just to reply to this here is a Dell T3400 QX9650 BTX scoring 57% CPU ranking due to running 4.15GHz. This is a stable overclock using the stock BTX workstation cooler. You can put one of hese together for about $200. I like playing with computers and if I played with the latest greatest stuff I would be out of money real soon. Also as a hobby it takes more time to reseach and plan a locked BIOS assault. I could build a new super computer in about 2 hours. Most of that would be installing Windows. Also the knowledge I gain from this allows me to help people who don't have much money but need a computer in their lives. A junk Dell Optiplex, a $20 Q9550, and a $110 GPU (Zotac GTX1050 Mini) can score %40 in CPU and GPU and use a 1080P television for a monitor. For a college kid, or a working mother with kids to entertain that might mean something. I'm sure it's boring to most of you. But I like to pick something that looks impossible and make it happen. I get several questions a day at Tomshardware about how to upgrade an old Optiplex. I also get people who want a cheap gaming computer and I point them toward the dual GPU workstations and unlocked CPUs. My next project isn't BTX it's dual CPU overclocking. I also have an unlocked Xeon/ locked BIOS project I need to get back to. So to you guys this looks irelevant, but to a lot of people it's actually important that someone knows these things.

 

[Retrorockit]

In case anyone is still looking at this. I came across what is probably the most powerful BTX there is. I didn't mention the Dell XPS 710 because it had a reputation for not reaching the 1333 fsb (Nvidia chipset)and not overclocking like it was supposed to. But The XPS 720 seems to be a different animal completely. XPS710 may be found with 720 MB because the 710 was so bad Dell waranteed them with the newer MB. QX9770 support, unlocked BIOS. Not sure if only with C2X or others also. Air cooler designed for overclocking, and an optional water/peltier cooling system. The water system requires a special PSU connector. it doesn't go below ambient to avoid condensation. Nvidia chipset with 3x GPU slots.4 phase 16 MOSFET VRM. Probably as close to an aftermarket BTX as there is. But a T3500 6 core looks cheaper to me.

i don't want to get flamed for multi posting so I'm going to edit this in.
http://www.ascendtech.us/dell-xps-cpu-fan-heatsink-tj258_i_cfndelxpstj258.aspx
XPS cooler assy. fan, full length 1 pc. shroud, and heatpipe cooler. The heatpipes on this are big enough for a water cooled system 5/16"-8MM pipes. If your going to mod a BTX you will want this.
Some systems have small front cooler holes in the MB and the cooler sits on top of the MB. This is for the large hole MBs where the cooler assy. sits IN the holes and ON the case. For older systems the front legs will need trimming, or put the cooler in the older housing. If you get this wrong the cooler won't touch the CPU. I think this will bolt in to most workstations and mid towers. Optiplex, and Dimensions will probably need the mod.

 

[Legendlink]

I have been following this thread for awhile now. Finally registered to add to the discussion.

Someone on one of the previous pages mentioned the Fujitsu Celsius/Esprimo systems. I would not waste your time with these assuming you can find one. I purchased a W380 off of ebay and unless I am very unlucky and the CPU's are bad (I don't have another system to test them in) the W380 does not support the Intel Core i7 875k or Xeon X3480. I also tried a W280 I found on ebay and this system does not appear to support the Intel Core i7 875k either. I tried to reach of to Fujitsu support but was ignored... probably because the systems are out of warranty and whatnot. Maybe I'm just being dumb? I don't know if anyone else has tried these systems yet.

I do also have a Dell Precision T3400 with an QX9650 and 16GB of RAM. This seems like the best bet from what I have gathered. Was able to overclock it to 4Ghz with throttlestop. I have not tried one more step up to 4.15GHz though.

Another system that I'm not sure if it was mention here is the MPC Clientpro 6620 and similar models. I really don't recommend this system either. I have not tried a Core2 Extreme in it yet but it does support the X3380. The heatsink is quite small and supports only 8GB of RAM (which it is very picky about. Went through about 6 sets before I found a compatible set.) It does however support front and rear 120mm fans and a 80mm on the front below the main 120mm fan.

 

[Retrorockit]

I stuffed the TJ258 cooler assy into a Dell T3400. The front screws were a little hard to get started. I bought a couple more to put into Optiplex/Dimension systems and upon measuring found out that the front screws are a few mm further apart. The heatsink is a little wider, and the bolts wider there also.I haven't got back to this but it seems a little stretching of bolt holes, and smaller dia. screws should allow enough wiggle room to allow the swap. There is a lump on top that needed to be removed. A perfect excuse to take a backsaw to a computer part. I did succeed in getting the GFB1212VHG 2 motor 120x50mm Delta fan into the housing. I'm intending to splice the cooler into a housing that can use the AFC1512DG 150X50mm fan. I made one attempt, but I think I have a better idea that will require starting over. First I need to get the bolt pattern issue under control.
I'm also seeing the H2C BTX coolers coming on the market. I guess the XPS720s are finally being parted out. The XPS730 was ATX and is quite different, but had H2C option also.
This is a water cooling loop with a 2nd water block after the radiator that has 2 Peltier chips with 2 finsinks on them in the airstream behind the radiator. The order is radiator,fan, Peltier assy,CPU waterblock, and pump. all in a single BTX style fan shroud. Prices vary wildly from $20 to $200. They were known for clogged filters, internal corrosion, and a generally short useful lifespan. It used a controller board with several Voltages from the special PSU connector to keep the temperature from going much below ambient to avoid condensation issues. but it was designed to overclock QX6850 65nm CPUs. I ordered one. I don't know what the physical size is. the XPS cases were wider than others so interchange may be difficult.

 

[Soulblade]

Someone on one of the previous pages mentioned the Fujitsu Celsius/Esprimo systems. I would not waste your time with these assuming you can find one. I purchased a W380 off of ebay and unless I am very unlucky and the CPU's are bad (I don't have another system to test them in) the W380 does not support the Intel Core i7 875k or Xeon X3480.

The W380 supports the Xeon X3470 according to official documents, and i don't know why it shouldn't support the X3480. Did you update the BIOS to the latest version yet?

I also tried a W280 I found on ebay and this system does not appear to support the Intel Core i7 875k either. I tried to reach of to Fujitsu support but was ignored... probably because the systems are out of warranty and whatnot. Maybe I'm just being dumb? I don't know if anyone else has tried these systems yet.

The W280 supports the Core i7 870 and 880 ... Dunno why the 875k is not supported, again you should check for the latest BIOS. But generally FSC des not support the more exotic CPUs ... like Extreme or energy saver editions.

- - - Updated - - -

My latest addition is a DELL optiplex GX780 with DDR3 RAM and a Core 2 Duo Q9550 ... I have to test it yet, I got it fresh from scrap. If it is broken I will use the CPU in one of my Fujitsu-SIEMENS systems.

 

[Soulblade]

Got new PCs ... one DELL 745 with Core 2 Duo E6600 and two DELL 960 with Core 2 Duo E8600 ... without RAM and HDDs, so I will have to source them elsewhere. But all got Ati HD3450 graphics cards with dual DisplayPort connectors.

Every time a pain in the *** to disassemble and clean them ... I take everything out of the case, incl. mainboard and PSU, to wipe or wash it off the dust, and I also renew the thermal grease of the CPU cooler.

 

[Retrorockit]

I missed the Opti 380 discussion. I own one now ($20). Added Q9505S GTX1050Ti and 8GB DDR3. I own an X5470 which I haven't tried yet. I've seen X5460 running in these at userbenchmark.com. BIOS after A05 has digital signing, so after installing them modded BIOS won't be an option.
The 745 will run QX6800 and can go about 3.45GHz.
I bought a Dell XPS420 and installed a QX9650 which went 4 Ghz easily. It responds to Throttlestop, and SetFSB overclocking. It's a multimedia mid tower. Similar to the T3400 , no SLI, but SPDIF and 6 port sound, 1394 type stuff. I'm upgrading the cooling to TJ258 with 2 motor Delta fan. I may scratch the 2 motor fan and add an extractor fan on the heatsink. I saw a post that it's worth 5*C and is much simpler than a 2 motor PWM setup. I have a 1.8A. 92mm heat controlled (thermistor) fan that only needs 2 wires to function. I can also duct the CPU heat away from it. It turns out the TJ258 needs some clearance at the FDD bay. I trimmed the bay. Some trim the TJ258 shroud. There is also a big lump that needs to be sawed off, but saws, and tin snips, and nibblers are part of the fun.
Here's another nomination for best BTX motherborad/system XPS 430 is X48 chipset with DDR3 support. It looks identical to the XPS420 except for that. X48 has official 400FSB support. X38 it's there but not official. Locked BIOS rules apply.

 

[Legendlink]

The W380 supports the Xeon X3470 according to official documents, and i don't know why it shouldn't support the X3480. Did you update the BIOS to the latest version yet?




The W280 supports the Core i7 870 and 880 ... Dunno why the 875k is not supported, again you should check for the latest BIOS. But generally FSC des not support the more exotic CPUs ... like Extreme or energy saver editions.

First thing I did was update the BIOS. Using a locked CPU defeats the purpose of this thread somewhat no? Either way, with the tiny heatsinks and non overclockable cpu's the Dells are probably a better bet.