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[NEWS] Is Microsoft Still a Monopoly?

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Microsoft is still a monopoly, and the government should step in and dismantle the corporation, levy large fines, and force full disclosure so as to encourage a more competitive environment. The basis of capitalism is competition. With competition, there are multiple options that allow for consumers to choose the best (or best priced) solution to a given problem. M$ has a long history of using illegal, unfair, and predatory business practices to destroy anyone that wants to offer consumers choice and freedom.

If Microsoft had its way, everything would be locked down with trusted/treacherous computing. No one would be able to create any kind of competing product as M$ would prevent that product from working with its products, effectively making the user of the new product unable to interface with the rest of the world. Large media corporatios and M$ would completely control our desktops and all of our electronics. Our rights and privileges would be sacrificed as they are not so important to the large megacorporations as the small chance that we might do something illegal with one of their products.

We are living in a very dangerous time. If we do not take action now to preserve our freedoms, then we will lose them all and enter into a digital totalitarian society, a digital 1984, with Bill as Big Brother.

While the US government is completely sold out to the corporations, foreign governments are not so easily manipulated, especially Europe. While we have software patents here, allowing the patenting of such trivial things as "one click ordering" or "scroll bars", Europe will not allow this to happen, which will keep competition alive. I'm an American, but the way we have allowed M$ to dominate the computer world and extinguish competitor after competitor makes me embarassed to admit it.
 
You guys are correct. It has been over 35 years since I studied US History. but I remember the Sherman Antitrust act but not the Clayton? Then again, I don't remember my name either. :confused:
 
MRD said:
Microsoft is still a monopoly, and the government should step in and dismantle the corporation, levy large fines, and force full disclosure so as to encourage a more competitive environment. The basis of capitalism is competition. With competition, there are multiple options that allow for consumers to choose the best (or best priced) solution to a given problem. M$ has a long history of using illegal, unfair, and predatory business practices to destroy anyone that wants to offer consumers choice and freedom.

If Microsoft had its way, everything would be locked down with trusted/treacherous computing. No one would be able to create any kind of competing product as M$ would prevent that product from working with its products, effectively making the user of the new product unable to interface with the rest of the world. Large media corporatios and M$ would completely control our desktops and all of our electronics. Our rights and privileges would be sacrificed as they are not so important to the large megacorporations as the small chance that we might do something illegal with one of their products.

We are living in a very dangerous time. If we do not take action now to preserve our freedoms, then we will lose them all and enter into a digital totalitarian society, a digital 1984, with Bill as Big Brother.

While the US government is completely sold out to the corporations, foreign governments are not so easily manipulated, especially Europe. While we have software patents here, allowing the patenting of such trivial things as "one click ordering" or "scroll bars", Europe will not allow this to happen, which will keep competition alive. I'm an American, but the way we have allowed M$ to dominate the computer world and extinguish competitor after competitor makes me embarassed to admit it.


not a single person on this forum could have said it better man! If i could, i'd use this entire post as a Quote for my sig. sadly, its to long though.

you are 100% correct on this though.

its not that microsoft is a monopoly anymore. Its just that they FORCED away all their competition when they was a monopoly. And they pushed back the compeition so hard, that any possible compeditors were crippled, and couldn't make a come back, and the new ones are to scared to stand up agenst the all mighty Microsoft.

While i don't agree with the fact that they should be FORCED to remove their own personal product from their own personal product, there SHOULD be more government involvement to allow competition.

And microsoft has the government ( in the US ) wrapped around their fingers with the whole DRM stuff. They tell the government that they can help stop piracy, and then the government then lets MS do what they want. When they don't realize that microsoft is just doing this to gain more controll.

Sure, guns kill people. but we can still go to Walmart and buy a shotgun, or a handgun. Same idea with piracy. if someone wants to do something illegal, let them! they will eventually pay for their actions! but don't let a company stop people from using their personal property to its full extent!

like said earlier, Downloading music in canada is LEGAL. So MS's DRM crap is going to stop what people in other country's can LEGALLY do.

Microsoft should be more worried about making software thats more efficient, crashes less, has less Holes for people to exploit. Instead of worrying about piracy, and stuff that THEY ARE NOT LIABLE FOR TO BEGIN WITH. MS is NOT liable if someone downloads music online illegally, While running a MS O/S! so that shouldn't be their concern! a QUALITY program SHOULD be their concern.

Its all about power. if they can't be a real monopoly, they will just add a new definition of monoply in the dictionary!
 
As technology has evolved, the basic problems of monopolies have really changed. It used to be that you were worried about monopolies like standard oil. However, anyone back then could have produced oil/gas. It might have been a bit more money, but it would still work in your car. If you didn't want to buy from standard oil, you could pay a bit more and get oil from joe shmoe's oil and gas company.

High tech items do not work the same way. Due to the tremendous specificity required for components to interoperate, compatibility is what enforces monopolies. Take OS's for example. Yes, linux is a competitor to windows. So is OSX. However, they are not drop in replacements for Windows in the way that another company's gas can replace Standard Oil's gas. A program or driver made for one os will not work on another.

Because of this, we must redefine how we deal with monopolies legally. What we need to start requiring is that companies that make critically important products, like M$, release specifications to allow others to create clones or software that interfaces with them effectively. Also, we must not allow software patents that enforce monopolies. If we want competition, people must be allowed to create products that provide the same function as existing products in every way. This is the only way to ensure competition in the highly technological world we are living in.
 
MRD said:
Because of this, we must redefine how we deal with monopolies legally. What we need to start requiring is that companies that make critically important products, like M$, release specifications to allow others to create clones or software that interfaces with them effectively. Also, we must not allow software patents that enforce monopolies. If we want competition, people must be allowed to create products that provide the same function as existing products in every way. This is the only way to ensure competition in the highly technological world we are living in.
What?!?! This model may work in the happy land of loonix where everyone shares all source code and they all frolick in pastoral fields and bla bla bla, but in the real world where corporations that have a vested interest in actually, um... making money are developing the software, it all falls to hell. You can't release product specifications and allow the competition to clone your product and still expect to make money. IBM tried this with their personal computers, and guess what? I don't see too many IBM PCs anymore. Fact of the matter is that if someone releases their product specs, someone else is going to come along, produce it for less money, and steal the initial company's profits. This is why we have patents: so somebody else doesn't come along and start making money form my product.
We must not allow patents that help enforce monopolies? Patents by nature enforce monopolies. You can't just say that because something is the most widely successful product on the market, the patent has to be revoked because it enforces a monopoly. Or that because something is the only product of its kind on the market, the patent is null and void because there is no competition.

Is Microsoft still a monopoly?
Yeah, you damn well better believe it. Quite frankly, Microsoft has been a monopoly since it first routed *nix back to the server market where change is bad and left Apple to the snobs of the computing world. And now, ten years after the 1995 of Windows, the world is even more under Microsoft control. Kudos Microsoft. With a shrewd purchase of Seattle Computer Products' Quick and Dirty Operating System in 1980, Microsoft set the stage to dominate the world of operating systems. Can we blame Microsoft for their shrewd, and often predatory business practices?
Take a look at the much publicized Internet Explorer fiasco for instance. When IE was released, Netscape was the titan. In fact, Netscape had been a titan since its beta release, a fact attributed to the fact that it was a far superior product to anything else available at the time. Then came Internet Explorer, a product from Microsoft that came bundled with their operating system, and promised greater integration into the operating system itself than any third party product could offer. In this respect, Microsoft was justified to release it with their OS. They developed IE to work seamlessly with Windows and to ultimately help run Windows itself. This is something that Netscape could never do without Windows source code, and that isn't likely to occur.
Furthermore, Microsoft has often left innovation for someone else to do, and instead has focused on developing products similar to current hot products, and bundling them with their own software suites. Why should I pay for a web browser when I can just get one for free with Windows? Is this any different from other operating systems? No, Apple has Safari, and *nix has... Lynx and about a thousand other browsers that offer varying levels of functionality.
Microsoft exists to make money. By making money, they are inevitably going to cause a loss of profits for somebody else. By making lots of money, they are inevitably going to push smaller competitors out of business. This is how the world of business works, and to deny it is to deny reality itself. But to punish them for being successful is akin to handicapping an opposing football team for being a superior competitor.
What do I think Microsoft needs to do in the future? Well, for starters they need to get Vista out the door so that I can upgrade from 2K. After that, I think that they should begin to hybridize the Windows operating system with *nix framework. While this may sound insane for company that has spent so much money trying to eliminate *nix, the best solution may be to absorb *nix. Why? Well, for one, there is a huge amount of development going into *nix on both a personal and corporate level that Microsoft could do well to make use of. Why fight the hoard when you can take all that they have developed and use it to develop a superior product? Not only this, but Microsoft would be heralded for bridging the gap between operating systems and creating a new level of interconnectivity. Microsoft already has the brand recognition; by stepping into the *nix arena and providing a more functional and easier to use product than already exists, they would only ensure their dominance.
Which is something they really need to work on, since the new kid on the black, Google, has shown interest in branching out into every arena it has a fighting chance at. The main reasons why there isn't a formal GoogleOS and Google Browser are that Microsoft continues to dominate these areas and there is little chance that a newcomer could come in and redefine the power structure...
 
There could be a better solution then windows - if people in the "OpenSource" community pulled together a little more and made it.
There is, i use it...
Fedora is a step in the right direction but persnally - until Linux has an easier way like the .exe /.msi to install programs - it will never become main stream.
Have you acutally used a linux distro this decade? Can't get much easier than point and click.. Suse/fedora,etc..
Is it MS fault that Linux Gaming is weak? Nope, it is Linux's fualt i always thought for changing too often, for their being SO many various of linux.
Linux is Linux, it does not matter what distro it is on. It is extremely obvious, that you know next to nothing about this subject. This would be like me explaining all the downfalls of a BMW 300, i dont have one, haven't driven one..
K, what company of linux should we design our game for today? Debian? redhat? slackware?
Once again..... Linux is Linux, you should join a linux forum and read up on the subject before posting.
 
. But to punish them for being successful is akin to handicapping an opposing football team for being a superior competitor.

:D my thoughts exactly. very good post and it hits very true points.
 
Have you acutally used a linux distro this decade? Can't get much easier than point and click.. Suse/fedora,etc..

yes Fedora 2/3 and 4, recently 4 and the point and click's i tried werent so straight forward - you had to go into the shell and enable this, or start this etc, so it is still not as easy as windows is it seems for what usage i had of it. Also hoping i got the right vesion of the program for the version of linux i had.

Linux is Linux, it does not matter what distro it is on. It is extremely obvious, that you know next to nothing about this subject. This would be like me explaining all the downfalls of a BMW 300, i dont have one, haven't driven one..

So the why does MySQL have about 10 diff, Linux download versions? PHP ? Apache ? if linux is linux ? and other programs and drivers? I had always thought Linux was linux - one kernal, they all used it, but they all seem to vary......


I am not bashing Linux - just pointing out issue i found with it and i am sure many many others do as well, the points i say are legit, Why do you think Linux is not more popular on the desktop since you seem to know so much about it ? You seem to be very defensive about it......
 
WingsofGOD said:
Linux is Linux, it does not matter what distro it is on. It is extremely obvious, that you know next to nothing about this subject. This would be like me explaining all the downfalls of a BMW 300, i dont have one, haven't driven one..

Once again..... Linux is Linux, you should join a linux forum and read up on the subject before posting.
Aren't you being a bit arrogant?
Last I checked, it does matter what distro you are running, what kernel version you are running, what GUI you are running, and so on.
And shall we look at what happened in 2005, alone?
Oh! The Kernel went from 2.6.12 in June, to 2.6.13 in August, to 2.6.14 in October! 3 updates to the kernel itself in a matter of 5 months.
Enlightenment is supposedly up to 0.17, but the last stable release is 0.16.7.2... and even that is buggy. Gnome 2.10 was released in March and 2.12 was released in September. KDE when from 3.4.1-3 to 3.5 in 2005 alone. And these are just the big names alone.
Now imagine trying to program something that will universally work in every Linux environment and every configuration. You think programmers have a hard time trying to program support for the myriad of different hardware configurations as it is? Try doing that and accounting for the different software configurations of linux as well.
The truth is, while Linux may or may not be a stable OS, the development community is by no means stable, and this will continue to hamper corporate efforts to program applications for Linux. Nobody particularly wants to test software for 6000 different configurations of the OS itself, and nobody wants to program software patches whenever a new update comes out for something that causes an incompatibility. While Windows is not immune from these woes, it certainly does not have such issues to the level that Linux does.
To think that in its current state Linux is ready to be a business and consumer grade OS is optimistic at best and stupid at worst.
 
So the why does MySQL have about 10 diff, Linux download versions? PHP ? Apache ?
Because they are tailored to PHP, Apache, etc...
Enlightenment is supposedly up to 0.17, but the last stable release is 0.16.7.2... and even that is buggy. Gnome 2.10 was released in March and 2.12 was released in September. KDE when from 3.4.1-3 to 3.5 in 2005 alone. And these are just the big names alone.
What does the window manager have to do with anything? You don't program for a WINDOW MANAGER, again, looks like you also know nothing about the subject.

Try again...
 
futura2001 said:
Aren't you being a bit arrogant?
Last I checked, it does matter what distro you are running, what kernel version you are running, what GUI you are running, and so on.
And shall we look at what happened in 2005, alone?
Oh! The Kernel went from 2.6.12 in June, to 2.6.13 in August, to 2.6.14 in October! 3 updates to the kernel itself in a matter of 5 months.
Enlightenment is supposedly up to 0.17, but the last stable release is 0.16.7.2... and even that is buggy. Gnome 2.10 was released in March and 2.12 was released in September. KDE when from 3.4.1-3 to 3.5 in 2005 alone. And these are just the big names alone.
Now imagine trying to program something that will universally work in every Linux environment and every configuration. You think programmers have a hard time trying to program support for the myriad of different hardware configurations as it is? Try doing that and accounting for the different software configurations of linux as well.
The truth is, while Linux may or may not be a stable OS, the development community is by no means stable, and this will continue to hamper corporate efforts to program applications for Linux. Nobody particularly wants to test software for 6000 different configurations of the OS itself, and nobody wants to program software patches whenever a new update comes out for something that causes an incompatibility. While Windows is not immune from these woes, it certainly does not have such issues to the level that Linux does.
To think that in its current state Linux is ready to be a business and consumer grade OS is optimistic at best and stupid at worst.

While I know next to nothing about linux, I'd like to see you break down THIS post wingsofgod.

Just so you know, you're attacking a very upstanding and helpful member of this forum... while you might not classify it as 'attacking', your posts have a very offensive/defensive tone... not very nice :)
 
Break down what? I allready did break down anything that had any baring on the post. The poster knows nothing about Linux, this fact is very Plain from his posts. I could care less what other OS people use, but if your going to attempt to be a fan boy and bash something you know nothing about, at least read up on it a little....
 
WingsofGOD said:
What does the window manager have to do with anything? You don't program for a WINDOW MANAGER, again, looks like you also know nothing about the subject.
If only I believed you were kidding...
But then again, perhaps you are just a reflection of the Linux community in some way, shape, or form, because it is a problem I see throughout the community.
Most of the linux developers really don't "program for a WINDOW MANAGER". Which really is a shame, because for linux to ever get accepted as a mainstream alternative OS, there is going to have to be a lot of work.
Why would anyone want to program something for a window manager when most Linux junkies are too busy running everything straight off the console?
Because the junkies consist of about 1% of the total computing population, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. Who makes up the rest? Your grandma, your boss who can't seem to figure out the difference between "reply" and "reply all", your brother who can't set the time on his VCR, and so on. These are the people that an OS needs to be catered for in order to succeed. If it isn't catered to them, they would rather not bother and stick to something easier to use.
So what does a window manager have to do with all this? Well, these people certainly can't be expected to bother with a command line, so they are going to want to point and click their way around an OS. And if they want to point and click their way around, they need a window manager that works all the time, every time. They need every program to interact with the window manager perfectly. This is something that is a long, long, way off for Linux, and will probably not happen until a project like GNOME that focuses on simplicity and usability gets universally adopted.
Linux is not a business class OS, and the people that try and espouse the benefits of linux over anything are only kidding themselves. Sure, your OS is built like a tank, but it is a tank that you have to drive not by a steering wheel, but by typing in geographic coordinates. Do you think the other 99% of the population will stand for that? No, they'd rather have a cheap sedan that, while it has trouble climbing hills and has a leaky fuel line, is easy to use and even comes with a GPS navigation system to make it even easier to get from place to place.
You seem to think you "know so much" about Linux and operating systems in general, but if you really did you would have a lot more respect for Apple and Microsoft for the products they have put together. Linux isn't even in the same ballpark; it isn't anywhere close...
 
What?!?! This model may work in the happy land of loonix where everyone shares all source code and they all frolick in pastoral fields and bla bla bla, but in the real world where corporations that have a vested interest in actually, um... making money are developing the software, it all falls to hell. You can't release product specifications and allow the competition to clone your product and still expect to make money.

Sure you can. Just because other people understand how stuff interfaces with your product doesn't make it easy to actually make the product itself. M$ has gotten in trouble on more than one occasion for not releasing info necessary for competitors to make good software.

IBM tried this with their personal computers, and guess what? I don't see too many IBM PCs anymore.

And the world is better off for it. Why do you think IBM's beat apples? Apple clearly had a better product in the Mac. PC's won because they were cloned and more affordable. There was competition in this marketplace, so consumers were drawn to it. Prices were far better. In the end, neither Apple nor IBM won the PC wars, but the consumers did. We can order PC's from any number of vendors, and they are all essentially intercompatible, and that's why PC's start at $300 from Dell nowadays instead of the $3000 they started at in the mid 80's.

Fact of the matter is that if someone releases their product specs, someone else is going to come along, produce it for less money, and steal the initial company's profits. This is why we have patents: so somebody else doesn't come along and start making money form my product.

That's the point. We need other vendors in the marketplace for the good of consumers. As it is now, M$ can treat its customers horribly, yet many have no choice but to continue to support them. If there were more competitors that were binary compatible, M$ would be forced to do what was best for consumers. That's the ultimate point of capitalism. Competition means consumers win.

We must not allow patents that help enforce monopolies? Patents by nature enforce monopolies. You can't just say that because something is the most widely successful product on the market, the patent has to be revoked because it enforces a monopoly. Or that because something is the only product of its kind on the market, the patent is null and void because there is no competition.

They already have copyright. That's enough protection. What that means is that you can't copy someone's code/program and distribute it, as they hold the rights to it. This is a good thing to protect intellectual property. What you should not be able to do, and which patents would allow, is patenting of silly concepts like "scroll bars" or "recycle bin". Patents are not needed. Fortunately, the EU agreed, and voted overwhelmingly to ban software patents in Europe.

Quite frankly, Microsoft has been a monopoly since it first routed *nix back to the server market where change is bad and left Apple to the snobs of the computing world

M$ never routed *nix back to the server market. That would imply *nix was on the desktop in any meaningful way, ever. There wasn't even a *nix kernel capable of running PC's when M$ was gaining dominance in the PC market. It was a server/mainframe only OS that ran on proprietary chipsets and cost a fortune. The first reasonably full featured *nix kernel for x86 was BSD, which I believe was released in the mid 90's, long after M$ was dominant on the PC desktop.

And now, ten years after the 1995 of Windows, the world is even more under Microsoft control. Kudos Microsoft. With a shrewd purchase of Seattle Computer Products' Quick and Dirty Operating System in 1980, Microsoft set the stage to dominate the world of operating systems. Can we blame Microsoft for their shrewd, and often predatory business practices?

It's not about blame. It's about acting to preserve competition under the Sherman Antitrust Act. It's about doing what is best for consumers. As Teddy Roosevelt believed, no corporation should ever feel it has more power than the government, over anything, because it doesn't, and the government is essentially the power of the people.

Take a look at the much publicized Internet Explorer fiasco for instance. When IE was released, Netscape was the titan. In fact, Netscape had been a titan since its beta release, a fact attributed to the fact that it was a far superior product to anything else available at the time. Then came Internet Explorer, a product from Microsoft that came bundled with their operating system, and promised greater integration into the operating system itself than any third party product could offer. In this respect, Microsoft was justified to release it with their OS. They developed IE to work seamlessly with Windows and to ultimately help run Windows itself. This is something that Netscape could never do without Windows source code, and that isn't likely to occur.

Exactly the point. M$ used its knowledge of the OS to prevent netscape from competing. This was found to be illegal, and M$ was ordered by the courts to release full info on its API's so that competitors could produce competing software. M$ also won by bundling IE. Many people just used IE cause it was there, and netscape required a download. The same thing is happening now with WMP versus RP and some others. Fortunately, the EU, South Korea, and some other govts. are requiring that M$ unbundle WMP from windows.

Furthermore, Microsoft has often left innovation for someone else to do, and instead has focused on developing products similar to current hot products, and bundling them with their own software suites. Why should I pay for a web browser when I can just get one for free with Windows? Is this any different from other operating systems? No, Apple has Safari, and *nix has... Lynx and about a thousand other browsers that offer varying levels of functionality.

Other than Opera, pretty much all browsers are, and have always been, free. I was browsing the web in college when NCSA mosaic was big, then came netscape, then IE, then mozilla, then firefox, etc. All were 100% free. It's not a matter of consumers having to pay for other browsers.

Microsoft exists to make money.

Yes, but the government does not. The govt. exists to do what is in the best interest of the people. Monopolies are not in the best interest of the people, and hence should be broken up.

By making money, they are inevitably going to cause a loss of profits for somebody else. By making lots of money, they are inevitably going to push smaller competitors out of business. This is how the world of business works, and to deny it is to deny reality itself. But to punish them for being successful is akin to handicapping an opposing football team for being a superior competitor.

All companies compete. However, M$ has used far more predatory and illegal business practices than any other company. Also, to some degree, we do handicap the best sports teams. Do you know what a draft is? It exists to keep major league baseball competitive. Each year, the team that sucked the most gets first pick of the best players. They then must play for that team for a period of 7? years until they become a free agent (unless the team trades them earlier). This ensures that baseball teams remain competitive, as that is what is in the best interest of the sport and the people. In this case, we must maintain competition in the computer industry, as that leads to greater innovation and is in the best interests of the industry and the people of the world.

Oh! The Kernel went from 2.6.12 in June, to 2.6.13 in August, to 2.6.14 in October! 3 updates to the kernel itself in a matter of 5 months.

It doesn't matter though. For example, let's take Mathematica. It's a commercially developed linux application (and one of the few commercially developed linux apps I have at my fingertips atm). The only requirement is that the kernel be >= to a certain version. Beyond that, it doesn't matter. Any distro, any window manager, any kernel version after 2.2 will all work. The comparisons you are making are absurd. It's not far off me complaining that windows differs too much to develop for, as people use different desktop wallpapers, and it would have to be tested with all the possible wallpapers! Some things simply do not matter. Window managers are not OS's. They just control the pretty graphics in the background, the virtual desktops, the borders around windows, etc. They don't run gui software. X11 does that.

Yes there are more versions of linux kernels than windows, but there are different versions of the windows kernel in each OS. There are different builds of Windows 2000 for example. It doesn't really matter which you are using though, as they maintain backwards compatibility.

To think that in its current state Linux is ready to be a business and consumer grade OS is optimistic at best and stupid at worst.

Linux and BSD are already commercial grade OS's. They're present on an enormous number of servers, and those servers are consistently demonstrated to be more stable and secure than their windows counterparts.

Most of the linux developers really don't "program for a WINDOW MANAGER". Which really is a shame, because for linux to ever get accepted as a mainstream alternative OS, there is going to have to be a lot of work.

This just shows a complete lack of understanding of the division of labor between the OS, X11, the desktop manager, and the window manager. Go do some reading before you even try to discuss this stuff.

Why would anyone want to program something for a window manager when most Linux junkies are too busy running everything straight off the console?

Honestly, linux and windows are pretty much the same here. You can run an app by clicking on an icon or you can run it by typing it into a cmd window/xterm. Both OS's offer both options. So I don't see your point at all.

So what does a window manager have to do with all this? Well, these people certainly can't be expected to bother with a command line, so they are going to want to point and click their way around an OS. And if they want to point and click their way around, they need a window manager that works all the time, every time. They need every program to interact with the window manager perfectly.

Linux already has this, and has had it for many years. If an app wants to add a menu entry or a desktop icon, it can do so trivially.

This is something that is a long, long, way off for Linux, and will probably not happen until a project like GNOME that focuses on simplicity and usability gets universally adopted.

Umm no, Linux had this in like 1995.

Linux is not a business class OS, and the people that try and espouse the benefits of linux over anything are only kidding themselves. Sure, your OS is built like a tank, but it is a tank that you have to drive not by a steering wheel, but by typing in geographic coordinates. Do you think the other 99% of the population will stand for that? No, they'd rather have a cheap sedan that, while it has trouble climbing hills and has a leaky fuel line, is easy to use and even comes with a GPS navigation system to make it even easier to get from place to place.

Then why is linux still chipping away at M$'s market share in the server market? *nux already runs most of the web. IIS has a tiny market share, about 1/5 that of Apache. The server world is owned by *nix. Computing clusters are completely dominated by $nix. The only thing linux has made lousy headway in is the desktop, and even that is growing steadily.

You seem to think you "know so much" about Linux and operating systems in general, but if you really did you would have a lot more respect for Apple and Microsoft for the products they have put together. Linux isn't even in the same ballpark; it isn't anywhere close...

You're completely wrong. Pick up a Xandros OCE CD and put it into the drive. The installer is easier than windows. My grandmother can do this without an issue. You get a pretty gui interface, all set up automatically. Installation of programs is EASIER than with windows. You don't even have to go on the web to download stuff. You just open up a gui menu app and choose the app you want, it goes and downloads, installs, and configures it.

Windows really has two advantages. Familiarity and 3rd party support. The first is simply that people are used to it, because its dominant, so they are comfortable with it. The second is that more software and hardware are made for windows than for linux. The reason this happens is two fold. First of all, it's market share. If you want to make a program, would you target the OS on 95% of the computers in the world or the one on 5%? Pretty obvious there. The other is that M$ prevents, illegally btw, companies from producing linux software. There was a company that made a linux antivirus suite (I can't remember the name now). M$ bought the company, and discontinued the linux version. Corel made a linux office suite. M$ bought a share in Corel contingent on them dropping the linux office suite. Dell can't produce a linux desktop, or M$ will increase their pricing on windows. That's illegal btw, but we all know they do it. Same reason Dell can't release AMD pc's, Intel will jack up their chip pricing. This is the kind of thing that must be stopped. Let M$ try to compete by just making a better product, but they must be stopped from destroying the competition through buyouts, threats, and price punishment.
 
BTW Dell is making pc's with FF as default browser. Also I don't get the browser wars neither company is making money off it. :shrug: .
 
Okay, I am in no way a Linux expert. I install it to play with it about once a year, and delete it about a week later.

My latest install was Mandriva, the latest version. Looks pretty, kinda bloated like XP, not anything spectactular. None of my software works on it, and few even have linux versions. The single thing that made me format was its lack of wireless networking support. To make it work, I would have had to install a program to use a windows driver on Linux.

It M$ a monopoly. Yes, but its days are numbered. There are hints of a Google web browser around, Google just got a share in AOL, beating out M$, they have a partner with Sun Micro Systems... they are attacking M$ on many fronts. Linux will have its day, maybe 15 years from now, but as a vastly diffrent beast. Someone will have to push a comercial version before it becomes stable and popular enough for software developers to work on it.

If I cant play my fav games on it, then I aint buyin it, even if it is free.
 
microsoft makes a good product, spends millions of dollars to make believe its the best and only solution.

sun complains and tries to sue but believe me, if sun was in the same position as microsoft then they wouldn't be complaining.

i like windows cause its super easy to use, doesn't require command prompts or text.

i can watch movies/make copies/play games/serve the web and so much more with the same operating software.

i am by no means an ms fanboy, but windows works.

if they are a monopoly is because they've spanked other os developers through ease of use, simplicity and the most powerful reason - marketing.
 
My latest install was Mandriva, the latest version. Looks pretty, kinda bloated like XP, not anything spectactular.

I'm not a big mandriva fan, mostly for the reasons you mention. It's very bloated and really not any faster than windows. Also, it's based on rpms, which makes it very hard to install new software.

None of my software works on it, and few even have linux versions.

Well, the reciprocal is equally true. If you are a linux user, windows won't run your software, and most linux software does not have a windows version either. Stuff like firefox, openoffice, and gimp exist for both, but many are linux only.

This isn't because windows is better, it's just that you would have to get more used to equivalent programs in linux that do basically the same thing as their windows counterparts. In general, they are also free, have no activation/registration, no restrictions on use, etc., which is quite nice.

Some common programs:

browser: IMO, firefox is the best on both platforms, so linux/windows are dead even here, since it's the same program in each case.
word processor: openoffice in linux, openoffice/word in windows. Pretty similar in terms of functionality, features, ease of use, etc. Tie here imo.
spreadsheet: openoffice in linux, openoffice/excel in windows. Similar for basic functionality, but the VBA macro ability in excel is very nice and not matched by openoffice yet.
graphics: gimp in linux, gimp/photoshop in windows. Similar functionality, although they work quite differently. I've yet to find anything I needed that gimp did not do.
email: evolution in linux (or lots of others), outlook in windows (or lots of others). Pretty much all these programs do the same basic thing and have similar functionality. I prefer evolution to outlook, but it's mostly feel and not features.
desktop publishing: Pagemaker/Quark in Windows, Scribus in linux. Scribus is pretty much equivalent to M$ publisher in power, well behind pagemaker based on my experience. It's getting better though.

These are just a few examples. In general, while your windows program may not have a linux version, there's an excellent chance there is a linux program that is free and does everything you need. It just necessitates you being open minded enough to try a new app. The main exception here is gaming. Linux is just as good at gaming as Windows in theory, but in practice, far more games are produced for windows, and games are not interchangeable. One word processor or the next, who cares really? But each game is unique.

The single thing that made me format was its lack of wireless networking support. To make it work, I would have had to install a program to use a windows driver on Linux.

Linux has support for a number of chipsets, but some lack support still. ndiswrapper is not that bad really, I've used and it was easy enough, but ideally, choose hardware that is more compatible. When I buy hardware, I make sure it will work in linux.

Someone will have to push a comercial version before it becomes stable and popular enough for software developers to work on it.

There are already many commercial versions available. Xandros, Linspire, Red Hat, and Suse are all commercial. Xandros is amazingly easy to use. Linux is already more stable than windows, so that's not an issue. It's also more secure and virtually devoid of spyware and viruses. I have NEVER once gotten either on my linux installs (except the tracking cookies). I had to reformat my windows install 2x this week because of spyware/viruses.

If I cant play my fav games on it, then I aint buyin it, even if it is free.

This is why I dual boot. I keep Win 2K for the games I can't play with cedega. It's a pain. This is imo the main weakness of linux and why so many linux users like me keep a small windows partition.

i like windows cause its super easy to use, doesn't require command prompts or text.

Linux doesn't require use of the CLI either. However, I don't really understand this. I have always found it easier to use a CLI than a gui interface for most things. Even in windows, I open up a cmd window to do file management. I just find it easier, dunno why, maybe because I grew up using DOS so it's more natural.

i can watch movies/make copies/play games/serve the web and so much more with the same operating software.

This is why I stopped buying M$ products. All the indications are that as time passes, maybe in Vista, maybe later, you won't be able to copy media, watch movies, etc. because of the extensive DRM that M$ is adding to its OS's. This lack of freedom was the dealbreaker for me. I used to use both linux and windows almost equally, liking both for various things. The NGSCP (Next Generation Secure Computing Platform) has forced me to choose to use only linux going forward.

i am by no means an ms fanboy, but windows works.

But will it always? Or will it eventually become so crippled with DRM that you can't do half of what you want?

if they are a monopoly is because they've spanked other os developers through ease of use, simplicity and the most powerful reason - marketing.

IMO, it's mostly about marketing and shrewd business practices and less through ease of use, simplicity, or quality. Mac has always been a better product in terms of ease of use, although the gap has been closing somewhat. However, windows is dominant, because it happened to be the OS for the cheaper/dominant hardware architecture and because of the way M$ bullied other companies.
 
First off, server grade and business grade are two completely different measurements. And in the latter, Linux is far behind Windows. Microsoft didn't exactly race to the finish line as well, NT was the first start and it wasn't until Windows 2000 that Microsoft delivered a true business class operating system.
To further explain my issues with window managers, yes you are right that the window manager performs very trivial tasks and should not be an issue. However, there are many problems that occur due to improper window manager handling that do not happen on Windows or OS-X in similar situations.
Examples are:
Root window conflicts
Banner/decorations showing up or not showing up
hotkey conflicts
resizing/minimizing issues
alphablending issues
Not to mention numerous problems with icons
While many of these errors are relatively easily fixed, they are not the sort of thing that most computer users are going to be able to fix. And that is precisely who needs to be targeted if Linux is ever going to be successful on the desktop.

And the world is better off for it. Why do you think IBM's beat apples? Apple clearly had a better product in the Mac. PC's won because they were cloned and more affordable. There was competition in this marketplace, so consumers were drawn to it. Prices were far better. In the end, neither Apple nor IBM won the PC wars, but the consumers did. We can order PC's from any number of vendors, and they are all essentially intercompatible, and that's why PC's start at $300 from Dell nowadays instead of the $3000 they started at in the mid 80's.
You should look into the cost of producing hardware in the mid 80s, and and the cost of producing it now. Therein lie most of the story of why PCs are vastly less expensive. Secondly, saying that consumers won is an irrelevent point. It was IBM's choice to allow their PCs to be cloned, and for that choice they paid the price of ultimately getting pushed out of the market. Similarly, it is Microsoft's choice to produce a closed source OS and not allow it to be cloned and thereby ensure their sole ownership of the product they produce.

That's the point. We need other vendors in the marketplace for the good of consumers. As it is now, M$ can treat its customers horribly, yet many have no choice but to continue to support them. If there were more competitors that were binary compatible, M$ would be forced to do what was best for consumers. That's the ultimate point of capitalism. Competition means consumers win.
No. That is not the ultimate point of capitalism. Capitalism is a system where capital is built through private production and traded on a free market economy for profit. Competition is a side effect of the free market economy. Furthermore, copyrights and patents exist to regulate fair production and encourage innovation.

They already have copyright. That's enough protection. What that means is that you can't copy someone's code/program and distribute it, as they hold the rights to it. This is a good thing to protect intellectual property. What you should not be able to do, and which patents would allow, is patenting of silly concepts like "scroll bars" or "recycle bin". Patents are not needed. Fortunately, the EU agreed, and voted overwhelmingly to ban software patents in Europe.
You really, really need to read up on the definition of what a copyright and what a patent is. As for the patenting of scroll bars and recycle bins, this is more an issue of overwhelmed patent bureaus and the fact that software is still a relatively new variable thrown into the equation.


M$ never routed *nix back to the server market. That would imply *nix was on the desktop in any meaningful way, ever. There wasn't even a *nix kernel capable of running PC's when M$ was gaining dominance in the PC market. It was a server/mainframe only OS that ran on proprietary chipsets and cost a fortune. The first reasonably full featured *nix kernel for x86 was BSD, which I believe was released in the mid 90's, long after M$ was dominant on the PC desktop.
Before Microsoft there was Unix and its variants, and there was Apple.

Yes, but the government does not. The govt. exists to do what is in the best interest of the people. Monopolies are not in the best interest of the people, and hence should be broken up.
Yes, the government does have to make money. How do you think laws are enforced, bills passed, wars fought, and civil servants paid? Governments don't just print off more money for their own use because this results in currency devaluation, they make their money mostly off taxation. Monopolies are not inherently bad, they only become a problem when they abuse their power. In fact, some monopolies are in the best interest of the people, gas and electric companies are government regulated monopolies that generally operate in the best interest of the people.

All companies compete. However, M$ has used far more predatory and illegal business practices than any other company.
Do a bit of digging on virtually any major company and you will be shocked. They didn't get where they are today by always staying on the right side of legality. Apple is a good place to start, they have done things that would make Thomas Penfield Jackson scream. Microsoft is not out of the norm for any other company its size. The really sad thing is that some of the most dastardly things businesses do are just slightly within the bounds of legality.

The other is that M$ prevents, illegally btw, companies from producing linux software. There was a company that made a linux antivirus suite (I can't remember the name now). M$ bought the company, and discontinued the linux version. Corel made a linux office suite. M$ bought a share in Corel contingent on them dropping the linux office suite. Dell can't produce a linux desktop, or M$ will increase their pricing on windows. That's illegal btw, but we all know they do it. Same reason Dell can't release AMD pc's, Intel will jack up their chip pricing. This is the kind of thing that must be stopped. Let M$ try to compete by just making a better product, but they must be stopped from destroying the competition through buyouts, threats, and price punishment.
Your first two examples are not illegal. You need to read up on takeovers; there is nothing illegal about completely purchasing or purchasing a share of a competitor. If a company so desires, they could offer to buy the publicly traded stock of a company for a greater value than it is worth for the sole purpose of amassing a controlling share to take over the board of directors, and thus control the management. This is not illegal.
Furthermore, saying that Dell can't release linux PCs because Microsoft will raise prices on Windows is a false point because Dell does provide linux systems.

Don't get me wrong, I do not hate linux. But in terms of where Microsoft is making their money, why they are making their money, and why they will continue to make their money, Microsoft has a superior operating system.
 
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