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SSD Reliability...is it better than HDD? (Answers!?)

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I can't remember where I read this but I read that using modern SSD as boot with OS under normal use and with wear leveling, theoretically you would use up only 22 full wire cycles per year. This is especially true if you tweaked Windows to use different (mechanical) drive for user data and partition.

When you consider some of the MLC is good for around 100,000 write cycles, a normal use the drive is likely to be obsolete or fried from outside issues than to become locked from being used up.

It can be worth investing into a single SSD for OS and and some apps if you want:
load speed
- or -
low power and silent
 
I havn't sold too many ssd to my clients yet. I get excited when a client has a laptop with an old drive and only needs 20gb of space :) ...
Out of maybe a dozen computers I have pulled 2 clients SSD's because of random quirks(bsod/unbootable/whatever) and put back veloraptors/blacks. The drive test fine themselves but idk if i trust them. Both were on XP sooooooo I made a new rule not to do winXP / SSD anymore. I've had it with troubleshooting a system, holding onto it for several days to find out problems seem to just go away when cloning over to a mechanical. Am i being stubborn?

I just set up a clients business fileserver with a new 120gb intel ssd for os(7) and am happy with my decision so far. a 500gb with allwaysync for data (all peachtree and user misc garbage + additional backup of course. im done with raid - even mirrors i just dont think its worth it anymore to deal with raid/controller issues
 
I can't remember where I read this but I read that using modern SSD as boot with OS under normal use and with wear leveling, theoretically you would use up only 22 full wire cycles per year. This is especially true if you tweaked Windows to use different (mechanical) drive for user data and partition.

When you consider some of the MLC is good for around 100,000 write cycles, a normal use the drive is likely to be obsolete or fried from outside issues than to become locked from being used up.

It can be worth investing into a single SSD for OS and and some apps if you want:
load speed
- or -
low power and silent
MLC currently used in SSD is rated for 3000-5000 write cycles, nowhere near 100 000 write cycles you mention. Now it is true that in normal usage you can usually get 2x-7x the rated number of write cycles out of the flash, but 100 000 is pushing it. SLC is another matter though.

How many write cycles you would use in a year depends greatly on what you do and on the size of the SSD. For a small SSD, say 40 GiB, 22 write cycles would be 880 GiB, which is on the lower side for a years worth of usage. I've done that in a week.
 
The weakest drives got around 3000-5000, the strongest (mainly SLC, industrial grade) may have over 100 000 but thats not the (bad) consumer grade. The drives which have been made around 1 year ago had 10 000 rated cycles. As good as anything because there was no NAND who was weaker than 10 000 rated cycles. So its kinda the new development to go even lower on NAND because they simply want to save up on cost and expensive NAND is usualy the one with higher nm. So, kinda obvious that the drives will be cheaper than 1 year ago. Not because of the speed but because of "lack on quality". Lack of quality usualy means: 25 and below is "weak", 32-50 is "good" and above 50 is industrial grade (usualy only used on SLC). In a percentage i think 50 nm can handle twice the overwrites of 32 nm and 32 nm can handle about 20% more than 25 nm. The difference might not be huge but its still a improvement, bigger is simply better on that technology. SLC compared to MLC is probably x5 for the SLC. Industry might be telling us its x10 or even higher but i think x5 is the true value.

Besides, on extreme tests (xtremesystems.org) , the weaker 128/120 GB SSDs (such as OCZ octane) died after about 300 TB of overwrites, the Vertex 4 died after 400 TB of overwrites. Compared to theyr NAND size it means that they was able to handle about 3000 cycles. The old Vertex 3 however, could handle up to 1200 TB (10 000 cycles) in term the controller will survive. I still think, the 10 000 is probably over provisioned, although there was in fact many drives able to reach or even exceed 1000 TB, but that is kinda the top and not the endurance from a average drive.

However, the question is, does it matter? My answer would be: Not really because most likely in like 90% of the defective drives, the controller chip was going boom and the NAND wear could still be at 100% (means no NAND died due to wear). However, take note, as far as i was able to read on the xtremesystem board, the difference between the drive can be very heavy. Some drive failed after around 80 TB while the exactly same drive on another user-test was able to keep up 800 TB (Samsung 830) so the quality difference of NAND and the SSD as a whole can be very very big and it seems like there is no real quality check...(!) There is no reason, because the powerless consumer will simply have to RMA and cry and what else, and all they can do is... not that much at all. At least it was cheap they would say... well... nowadays the drives fortunately are getting cheaper but that was not like that 1 year ago. Still, at least the overrated prices are slowly coming down the roof. However, a SSD is still about 15 times more expensive in price/size ratio than a media (high density) HDD, thats a huge difference, so the SSD clearly is here in order to provide performance, nothing else.

The manufacturer doesnt truly care because all they are looking for is that the drive is able to survive those 3+ year of warranty period, so they dont need to hand out a replacement. Of course its pretty hypocritical when they say so many good stuff about SSD reliability on theyr website, but does any of those manufacturer provide a 10 year warranty period? I guess not, and if so, they clearly say: you got 3000 cycles and when that value is exhausted no warranty (even if this condition is done in only a single month). So its not easy to deal with and in order to backup that limitation they start to even underrating theyr drives rewrite cycles and we have the situation we got today... its getting lower and lower. I find it critical if we go below 3000 because that means that there is not truly any effort into quality check and they want to increase theyr "wield" to almost 100%... thats how they may save up on production cost on the customers back.

Recently my M4 SSD died after only 3/4 year of use, the SMART data was close to perfect and still 100% NAND condition. In my experience HDDs are less vulnerable to failure. Thats not even a miracle because a HDD is a very old and well known technology and it got so much improvements over the past several decades. While the SSDs as we know today is still a pretty young technology with lot of unknown issues.

About the rated 1 million hour MTBF of a SSD (vs "only" 100 000 of a HDD), i find it a hilarious number which is in no way accurate and kinda "taken out of the air". Its pretty possible that a HDD can live up to 10 years of daily use while most SSDs may stop working already, there isnt any proof that a SSD is capable of doing that. Not a single test is able to reflect that number, its fully synthetical and based on totaly unknown or unreal values. Its kinda comparable to the several million contrast ratio of nowadays TV. Either rated like that, or not rated at all. The most wise crack of them is Samsung. They got in mind they can avoid being called a liar by telling us "Mega contrast" but its kinda the same just with lesser transparency. No matter what, all those stuff are simply fantasy numbers, and they are even allowed to spell it out.. because there is no law "against lying". ;)

One important reason for lowering the NAND quality so much is the insane failure rate of those SSDs (in a timeline of 2 years). The main cost however is the NAND, and thats gonna be very expensive for the manufacturer for every SSD that have died. Because a piece with the value of 20$ usualy busted up the whole drive... so they surely had in mind "We rather use inferior NAND and work in improvements on the controller than to always having to throw away expensive NAND".


Note: Thats just my view as a consumer and when i watch the recent development. I have zero knowledge about the industrys background and it would be hard to know because its pretty hidden, intransparency is still a big issue.
 
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Good read ED thanks.

I have just taken the SSD plunge, got myself a Samsung 830.
 
Good post ED.

Psycogeec, you're missing the whole point of the article. Let's say you're "abnormal" in your usage. How many of us actually still use the same HDD we bought even just 5 years ago and haven't upgraded to larger capacity? The point is you're going to upgrade that SSD long before it's going to die from too many "writes".
 
You are replying to someone that posted a year ago....to the day actually :p
 
Great read... much needed insight.

I recently jumped on board the SSD boat with an OCZ-Agilty-3 240GB was kinda reluctant due to all the bad rep. This helps clears things up. Thanks!
 
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The entire SF2xxx #3-Series from OCZ was kinda screwed for almost a full year and it was hurting OCZ a lot and of course, theyr customers too. But, after almost 1 year of "screwing around", and i think since the release of V.2.22, the issues finally seems to be fixed. That indeed took them way to long but better late than never.

Since middle of 2012 the overall stability and endurance of most SSDs seems to have increased a lot. Not due to NAND, NAND even decreased in overall, but firmware and controller based issues had a very strong overhaul, so i guess they are mature at least.
 
Figured instead of making a new topic I'd just post in here, it's close enough...

Can/do SSDs randomly completely die unexpectedly? Or do they just degrade over time? I know HDDs can randomly die out of the clear blue sky, or if you drop em, etc, but do they degrade over time slower than SSDs? How does time affect both SSDs and HDDs?

Also, does the OS (Windows specifically, obviously) constantly use the SSD/HDD or does it only use RAM (latter of which would make more sense to me) untill you run something on the HDD... yet the OS itself is on the HDD so it would have to always be reading but not neccesarily writing? Do primary OS/boot HDDs get stressed out quicker and therefore have shorter lifespans?
 
Most SSD failures that I saw were something like instant death without any SMART errors before or anything else . It just stopped to work, dropped from RAID etc. HDD are usually showing errors in SMART or start "clicking" but I don't remember any HDD which instantly died without any "warning".
At least for me HDD are still more reliable than SSD.

Most operations on home PCs are read transfers. You can count it in about 90% of all operations. It of course depends what are you doing but write transfers or high IOPS count almost only in servers.
Actually system is loading standard system files and more often used data to RAM so if you are not running many applications from system drive then you barely see difference between SSD and HDD other than boot time. It's one of reasons why it's sometimes better to leave system on HDD and copy/install games or other more often used data to SSD. SSD are still expensive if you look at 1GB/$ so it's probably good idea to save that 20-30GB system files for something else. Of course it also depends what are you doing.
 
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Most SSD failures that I saw were something like instant death without any SMART errors before or anything else . It just stopped to work, dropped from RAID etc. HDD are usually showing errors in SMART or start "clicking" but I don't remember any HDD which instantly died without any "warning".
At least for me HDD are still more reliable than SSD.

Most operations on home PCs are read transfers. You can count it in about 90% of all operations. It of course depends what are you doing but write transfers or high IOPS count almost only in servers.
Actually system is loading standard system files and more often used data to RAM so if you are not running many applications from system drive then you barely see difference between SSD and HDD other than boot time. It's one of reasons why it's sometimes better to leave system on HDD and copy/install games or other more often used data to SSD. SSD are still expensive if you look at 1GB/$ so it's probably good idea to save that 20-30GB system files for something else. Of course it also depends what are you doing.

This is well-said. While its nice to say "My windows boots in 7.6 seconds," really, what does this do for you? Its easier to leave your computer on, use hibernation, etc. For what its worth, installing Windows 7 on a SSD is like wasting 25 bucks worth of storage :shrug:

I've been slowly moving everything off my SSDs, as I finally figured out how to get the OC on my AMD rig to stick with some power-saving settings enabled, so leaving the computer on isn't a constant power bill massacre. On the subject of failures, I haven't ever seen a SSD fail gradually over time, though I suppose a SSD that makes it through its full life will. Typically something borks, and has a catastrophic failure all in one go.

I do, however, support getting tiny SSDs with tiny costs, and using these as boot mediums-- this gets you the performance of a SSD without the excessive cost, especially if you find one on a good sale. Then you're free to either have one super fast SSD, or RAID two smaller ones in order to laugh at other people's loading bars in games :popcorn:
 
Most SSD failures that I saw were something like instant death without any SMART errors before or anything else . It just stopped to work, dropped from RAID etc. HDD are usually showing errors in SMART or start "clicking" but I don't remember any HDD which instantly died without any "warning".
At least for me HDD are still more reliable than SSD.

Most operations on home PCs are read transfers. You can count it in about 90% of all operations. It of course depends what are you doing but write transfers or high IOPS count almost only in servers.
Actually system is loading standard system files and more often used data to RAM so if you are not running many applications from system drive then you barely see difference between SSD and HDD other than boot time. It's one of reasons why it's sometimes better to leave system on HDD and copy/install games or other more often used data to SSD. SSD are still expensive if you look at 1GB/$ so it's probably good idea to save that 20-30GB system files for something else. Of course it also depends what are you doing.

Thx, yeah and I agree they are still too expensive for me anyway, eventually ill move though.

This is well-said. While its nice to say "My windows boots in 7.6 seconds," really, what does this do for you? Its easier to leave your computer on, use hibernation, etc. For what its worth, installing Windows 7 on a SSD is like wasting 25 bucks worth of storage

I've been slowly moving everything off my SSDs, as I finally figured out how to get the OC on my AMD rig to stick with some power-saving settings enabled, so leaving the computer on isn't a constant power bill massacre

I also support getting tiny SSDs with tiny costs, and using these as boot mediums-- this gets you the performance of a SSD without the excessive cost, especially if you find one on a good sale. Then you're free to either have one super fast SSD, or RAID two smaller ones in order to laugh at other people's loading bars in games

Eh, If I got an SSD it would be at least 1 TB, I cant stand having to split up my programs, which is why I'm waiting untill SSDs are cheaper.
 
Thx, yeah and I agree they are still too expensive for me anyway, eventually ill move though.



Eh, If I got an SSD it would be at least 1 TB, I cant stand having to split up my programs, which is why I'm waiting untill SSDs are cheaper.

Haha, I know a lot of people like you-- I was one of em. I don't blame you in the slightest tbh. I took the plunge one day, and jebus was it worth it, though
 
Actually system is loading standard system files and more often used data to RAM so if you are not running many applications from system drive then you barely see difference between SSD and HDD other than boot time. It's one of reasons why it's sometimes better to leave system on HDD and copy/install games or other more often used data to SSD. SSD are still expensive if you look at 1GB/$ so it's probably good idea to save that 20-30GB system files for something else. Of course it also depends what are you doing.

Well stated, but SSD drives are the future, and you cant hold them off forever :)

An SSD drive breathed new life into my old Lenovo T61. Without it, the system was slow and cumbersome, especially when multi-tasking: It cut my load times in half, just about for all the programs I use. It allowed me to continue using it for work. It also does much better now when I have lots of stuff going on. The laptop is quieter and uses less energy. Its saving me money and time.

The cost of SSD drives is getting better. They are not exorbitantly expensive, especially when you consider the Cost/performance ratio.
 
Well stated, but SSD drives are the future, and you cant hold them off forever

I dont know about that, yeah for mobile devices and phones they're great but they're really pricey for the little gain you get. It makes me worried that they don't tell you that they're getting screwy like noises from an HDD can (mechanics ftw, electronics ftl)
 
The cost of SSD drives is getting better. They are not exorbitantly expensive, especially when you consider the Cost/performance ratio.

With lower SSD price comes their lower endurance. Most cheaper SSD series that are available now ( or will be soon ) are based on TLC NAND. Good example can be Samsung 840 and 840 Pro ... 840 = TLC, 840 Pro = MLC. Pro cost more but it has higher performance and longer warranty.

It doesn't change fact that even "slow" SSD are great if you look at performance and much higher resistance to drop than regular hdd. It can be seen especially in mobile devices.

I actually had nice deal and I got Crucial M4 256GB for ~$120 today :)
 
With lower SSD price comes their lower endurance. Most cheaper SSD series that are available now ( or will be soon ) are based on TLC NAND. Good example can be Samsung 840 and 840 Pro ... 840 = TLC, 840 Pro = MLC. Pro cost more but it has higher performance and longer warranty.

It doesn't change fact that even "slow" SSD are great if you look at performance and much higher resistance to drop than regular hdd. It can be seen especially in mobile devices.

I actually had nice deal and I got Crucial M4 256GB for ~$120 today :)

HOW?! You need to tell me where you got this amazing deal, because I'm in the process of trying to find a drive.
 
HOW?! You need to tell me where you got this amazing deal, because I'm in the process of trying to find a drive.

Friend started bidding 2x M4 256GB on 2 separate auctions. On both he set low price ~$120 max and he won both. Since he couldn't pay for both then I've helped him ;).
I have no idea why noone else was interested. Drives were brand new with Crucial's warranty but no seller's invoice or other papers.
 
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