The common misconception of the expensive Mac

[FudgeNuggets]

Sorry Ben, I've been absent a few days and have missed a lot. My Mini with the Merom runs temps in the mid 70s, but it is in room that is a good 10 degrees cooler than the rest of the house. I do notice that if I'm doing any heavy work with it the fan is more apt to kick on than it had previously been but for doing general everyday stuff it is as quiet as ever. I'm concerned that a 7200rpm drive combined with the Merom will indeed be too much heat, so I'm hoping to go for a SSD instead.

 

[MRD]

I never priced desktops, as I can't see a point in buying a pre-built desktop of any kind, but I did price laptops. I was buying my sister a laptop for Christmas, and the Mac options were severely underpowered and overpriced compared to their PC counterparts. While I wanted to buy her a Mac, as I didn't want to give any money to Microsoft, I ended up with a Gateway because it was a much more powerful computer for slightly more than half the price of the Mac.

Maybe desktop pricing is more comparable, I don't know, but laptop pricing is horrible.

 

[Mr.Guvernment]

i can see buying pre-built - order it, arrives, plug it in, go, something does work, call - fixed, alot less headaches for many who simply dont have the time to sit and build a system, and then factor in when something doesnt work, system wont post, OS keeps crashing... something is DOA..... for some the extra cost is worth it because their time is worth more then the potential headache, or in some cases, the cheaper cost of a pre-built system is worth it for most.

I dop prefer to build my own though, just more fun to get hands on!


The reason i got my macbook when i did was the opposite of your experience, all 13' laptops were underpower, using core duo's, small HD's, little ram, and just ugly looking laptops, the macbook was the only one using c2d's and looked good, if the macbook couldnt run windows, i never would of gotten it.

 

[juane414]

I think the 13.3 inch macbook is comparable to most 13.3 inc pc's in price vs. performance, but the 15 inch macbook pro's are overpriced.

 

[Neuromancer]

...something does work, call - fixed...

Yup sounds like a prebuilt OEM machine all right. (If it works from the get go call dell and they will "fix" it till its broke )

I love typos

 

[MRD]

OK, this was around Christmas of 2006, so about 1 yr 4 months ago. Here were my choices (to the best of my memory):

1) Mac ($1300)
RAM: 512 MB
HD: 80GB
CPU: C2D 1.5ish ghz
Graphics: Intel Integrated
Screen: 13 inches
CD: CD writer, DVD reader
OS: OSX (Whatever release was current then...)

2) Gateway ($800)
RAM: 2 GB
HD: 160GB
CPU: AMD Turion X2 1.8 ghz
Graphics: ATI Radeon X300 (I think... the higher end integrated ATI radeon graphics of the time)
Screen: 15 inches
CD: CD and Dual layer DVD read/write
OS: Windows XP SP2

For anyone that knows me, you know how much it pains me to give MS any money. I did it because I needed a gift for my sister last minute before Christmas. I REALLY wanted to try to avoid buying a MS product, but the value of the Gateway vs the Mac was just indisputable.

Has the pricing disparity decreased on laptops? I admit I haven't really seriously priced them in a while. However, at the time, there was just no way I could justify going with a Mac.

 

[muddocktor]

Yeah MRD, I ran into much the same thing a year ago when I was buying myself a new work laptop. I don't need extreme portability as much as I need screen area so I was shopping for one with a 17" screen. And I looked seriously hard at the Macbook Pro 17". But dressed out like I wanted it the price was over $3000. I ended up buying a Dell Inspiron E1705 for around $2300 delivered with 3 year warrantee and accidental damage coverage. The MBP had a T7600 processor and the Dell only had a T7400, but that was the only thing slower in the Dell. The screen was 1920 X 1200 instead of 1680 X 1050, both were dressed with 120 gig 7200 rpm hard drives , 2 GB or DDR2-667 SO-DIMMS and a DVD burner. The MBP had a much worse video subsystem than the Dell. IIRC the MBP was offering some mid level mobile ATI chipset and the Dell had a 7900GS GeForce Go vid subsystem. I just couldn't justify the price difference between the 2 to go with the MBP and I have been pretty happy with the performance of this Dell too and it has some pretty decent onboard speakers for a laptop too.

 

[Blackstar]

Sorry Ben, I've been absent a few days and have missed a lot. My Mini with the Merom runs temps in the mid 70s, but it is in room that is a good 10 degrees cooler than the rest of the house. I do notice that if I'm doing any heavy work with it the fan is more apt to kick on than it had previously been but for doing general everyday stuff it is as quiet as ever. I'm concerned that a 7200rpm drive combined with the Merom will indeed be too much heat, so I'm hoping to go for a SSD instead.

Well, if you missed this in my more then verbose posts this I think will help your cooling issues:

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/23049/smcfancontrol

You can set several presets for the lowest fan speed depending on how much you tax the processor. I found that 2400-2800 is a good general speed for cooling and quiet (if not damn silent) operation.


Personally I think SSD would be a bit overkill as far as price point, since the ones coming down in price now are not the best performers.

I found this HD to be the best price/performance for my Mini: http://www.google.com/products?q=HTS722020K9SA00&oe=UTF-8&scoring=p

Hope this helps.


- Blackstar

 

[FudgeNuggets]

Hows the heat on those 16mb cache 7200rpm drives, that was my concern....

 

[muddocktor]

Fudge, I'm running a Seagate 120 gig 7200 rpm drive in my Dell (bought a spare when I got the laptop so I could install XP Pro on it and leave the Vista install alone on the original) and I don't find it to be any hotter running than a 5400 rpm drive. I don't know about the Hitachi 200 gig drives though, although the last Hitachi drive I had in my last laptop (60 gig 7200 rpm IDE) didn't run hot at all either.

 

[Blackstar]

Hows the heat on those 16mb cache 7200rpm drives, that was my concern....

It's say it's within a single degree of the original 80GB that came with my mini. I've been running it all day and it's at 35C. Hottest I have seen it go was about 42C.

Current All Temps - uptime 1day 11hours 1minute 57seconds
CPUA-40C
CPUA Heatsink- 36C
Ambient - 34C
Northbridge1 - 36C
Northbridge2 - 36C
Hitachi 200GB - 35C

These drives have been very popular on Newegg and with Mac up-graders as well: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822145160

- Blackstar

 

[Hazaro]

Looks at thread title*

Sees people quoting $1,500 and $2,300*

Looks back at thread title*

 

[Captain Newbie]

*still wants a Mac Pro someday and doubts he can build his own 8-way Xeon box for less*

 

[muddocktor]

And that is the problem with Macs, Newbie. The Pro is the only computer Apple offers that I think is worth what they are asking for it, from a hardware standpoint. But it is more computer than what I want or need. Since we now have quad core processors, I have no need for a 2 socket platform that requires me to buy special (and more expensive) memory. But all their other offerings are either an all-in-one or a hot plate and both have severe compromises in them hardware-wise. If I were a computer dummy and didn't game then it might be a bit different but I do know hardware and I know that the innards of the Mini and iMac are inferior in performance to offerings from the major oem's or what I can build for that price point.

 

[Shell]

*still wants a Mac Pro someday and doubts he can build his own 8-way Xeon box for less*

haha, 8-way... you mean 8-core, dual quadcore.
Let's see...

QX9775 3.2GHz 12MB - $1,600 x 2
4 x 2GB DDR2-800 FBDIMM - $700
Intel Skulltrail - $660
1U w/700W PSU - $426
Total: $5000

And guess what's more expensive and slower?
http://store.apple.com/AppleStore/W...9094007/wo/ApaXUQM4sVXg2iGG5fU1aOdu6Zf/2.?p=0

I hear AMD is going to have a new Socket F+ 4P platform coming out soon... mmmm... Quad-Quadcores on an extremely powerful platform.

I'm a computer scientist. 8-way means there's eight processing units that are software visible.

Whoops... I guess you're not a victim of that little bit of confusion.

 

[Captain Newbie]

haha, 8-way... you mean 8-core, dual quadcore.

I'm a computer scientist. 8-way means there's eight processing units that are software visible.

 

[MRD]

Personally, I'd be unlikely to spend a lot on a laptop. It's highly unlikely I'd even consider spending $1000. Laptops for me are convenience machines meant for typing, surfing, emailing, etc. If I want a powerful gaming machine, I'm going to use a desktop.

I'm on a P3-1ghz right now (just upgraded from a k6-2 which was too slow) and it's more than sufficient for web browsing.

Apple can't compete in the $500 laptop arena. For that matter, Dell doesn't do that well either. Dell was too expensive for me compared to some options I found at Best Buy. I would have bought one but didn't want to give my money to MS, so I am still laptopless.

 

[benbaked]

Personally, I'd be unlikely to spend a lot on a laptop. It's highly unlikely I'd even consider spending $1000. Laptops for me are convenience machines meant for typing, surfing, emailing, etc. If I want a powerful gaming machine, I'm going to use a desktop.

I'm on a P3-1ghz right now (just upgraded from a k6-2 which was too slow) and it's more than sufficient for web browsing.

Apple can't compete in the $500 laptop arena. For that matter, Dell doesn't do that well either. Dell was too expensive for me compared to some options I found at Best Buy. I would have bought one but didn't want to give my money to MS, so I am still laptopless.

If you wanted a used Mac, I'm sure you could find an older iBook G4 these days for under $500 and with at least 768 MB of RAM one of those will run OS X Leopard quite acceptably for typing/surfing/email/browsing duties. I will have had mine for four years this August and the only thing I've purchased for it in all of that time was OS X Leopard. From a cost-of-ownership standpoint it has been cheaper then any custom-built PC I've ever owned. I'm still on the original battery too.

 

[MRD]

When I looked I couldn't get anything at all under $1300 new, and that was with 512mb ram. Besides, while I have lots of used computer parts, I don't buy used laptops, keyboards, or mice... they're usually nasty. The stuff inside... graphics cards, mb's, cpu's, hd's etc... I don't care. Ever look under the keys in your keyboard? It's impossible to clean really too.

 

[benbaked]

When I looked I couldn't get anything at all under $1300 new, and that was with 512mb ram. Besides, while I have lots of used computer parts, I don't buy used laptops, keyboards, or mice... they're usually nasty. The stuff inside... graphics cards, mb's, cpu's, hd's etc... I don't care. Ever look under the keys in your keyboard? It's impossible to clean really too.

lol, you can get a replacement keyboard for most laptops (including iBooks) for very little money if it really bothers you. I personally wouldn't let a minor detail like that deter me from buying a used laptop, but whatever.