Thoughts on Piracy, DRM, Collector Editions, and Gaming heritage.

[mas5acre]

Well this is my first poost in the games section. I speak not of just pc games but console games as well. Do you think pre-order bonuses and collector's editions help curb piracy? How do you think Steam and other legit direct download services factor in? What about DRM?

I haved a hacked wii and psp myself, but only backup what I own. I love using my computer to play some of my favorites in high resolution. I own a nes, snes, psx, n64, dc, gamecube, xbox, ps2, wii, xbox360, ps3 and a i7 pc with a radeon 5870. My psp 2000 memory card has 32gb of storage on it and can fit lots of games.

Me, I love extras like the fallout lunchbox and bobblehead, serious gamers I think prefer a disc and manual and sometimes even more like I just preordered dead rising 2 high stakes edition.

Piracy sucks for the business, this I understand, but on the other hand I hate drm. Ive been wanting bioshock 2 forever and saw the retail version for 10 bucks but it's got bad drm. I think it only has limited activations. I'm the kind of person who will uninstall games alot when I've got a new one and reinstall a game when I want to continue my save file from an older game.

I do own Steam purchased games but they are mostly oldies or games I got cheap thru a sale that I wanted to try to play on my computer and already own the console version...My 5870 spits out nicer graphics than my xbox 360 but my 360 lets me play games with my bro and friends that don't play pc games.

Steam IS DRM, this I know, but it doesn't seem like its going anywhere. Like if I bought a game from capcom or ea's download service, one day it may not exist and your games are gone. Steam is not like Apple's old DRM where your music can only be played on their players. Steam works on any windows or mac based pc (mac is a work in progress) and there's no forcing of buying hardware like an ipod, but I still dislike it a little as Steam is still in control, mods don't work and you're forced into buying expansion packs exclusively from steam as retail versions don't work with the version of the game you bought with steam software.

I love the short history of gaming and am afraid of games like xbox live's Castle Crashers will be lost in time due to the next xbox because of the DRM in place and the disabling of servers in the future that host that file to make way for new content.

On consoles, I am always more likely to buy a game with a good story and/or split screened multiplayer because splitscreen allows introducing the game to new people long after the online servers are turned off.

I do use emulators for some classic gaming from psx games to old pc games.
I own lots of games. I have used cd cracks in the past to bypass drm on games I own legally. Some pc games are so old you have to crack it to play it. I support gog.com's legal old DRM free games as well.

I have tried to be honest and respectful to this forum's rules and its members and hope all that respond do the same. Please no flame wars or mentioning of illegally obtaining copyrighted software or cracks. I'd like an open discussion of people's personal feelings on this matter.

Technology can limit frontiers as much as it can expand them.

 

[petteyg359]

but I still dislike it a little as Steam is still in control, mods don't work

Mods work just fine, you just have to put them in the right directory. I've played Sven Coop for years with Steam's version of HL.

you're forced into buying expansion packs exclusively from steam as retail versions don't work with the version of the game you bought with steam software.

The version of the game you bought wasn't "retail". There were compatibility issues with expansions even before Steam existed. Games published by different companies (some even more than one publisher in the same region) had different patches, and you had to make sure that 1.02 patch you downloaded matched your specific region and publisher.

 

[DarkVirusVx]

I have sounded off in the other piracy thread. But i thought i comment one the fallout pre-order stuff. i pre-ordered and loved the stuff you get(ordered two sets) and also picked up the game at a midnight release at gamestop. i was a little disappointed at first with the game but I understand it's Bethasoft not Interplays just took a bit.

I was going to go pre order New Vegas a few days ago and was very disappointed in the package. I decided to wait to get it maybe not even on release day. I am not a fan of pre order "here get this, pre order there get that". or even in game stuff because a mod a week later will get you all of it anyway.

 

[David]

I haven't bought a physical copy of a game in ages. I buy 90% of my games through Steam.

I know Steam is DRM, but as well as being a 'restriction' of sorts (not that it feels like it) it's also a feature. I got a new laptop, installed steam, logged in, downloaded all my games. Painless, no disks. Just left the laptop on overnight a couple of times downloading.

Personally, I think any kind of optical media is facing extinction in the near future.

 

[RADIO_ACTIVE]

Personally, I think any kind of optical media is facing extinction in the near future.

I agree

 

[hokiealumnus]

As a lot of you probably already know, I had to shut down a similar thread earlier today discussing piracy and the like. That one crossed the line in a couple places and this one's toe is right on the line. Please mind the forum's policy and do not discuss anything of the virtues of software piracy, how to accomplish it or where to get pirated software.

Always remember the rules on this subject:

Overclockers Forums prohibit the promotion of, and reference to, any program or website which contains or distributes Warez, Crackz, and pirated copyrighted material, including but not limited to music and video. Discussion of Warez, crackz, and pirated copyrighted material is not permitted in this forum. Any offer to provide or request to receive warez, crackz, and bootleg material will be deleted without notice and the offender will be warned. A repeat offense is grounds for permanent dismissal, without recourse, from these forums.

This is a serious issue for this Forum. Allowing discussion of and, by extension condoning the distribution of, said information jeopardizes the very existence of this Forum. As such, it will not be tolerated. For the long-term future of this site, please abide by this rule.

In addition to this, moderator staff may at their discretion choose to edit, remove or otherwise manipulate material they feel is not of a suitable ethical standard. This is entirely at the moderators' discretion. This may include for example: use of unsecured wireless networks, threads that discuss/poke fun at/otherwise unfairly involve people, organisations or sites in areas of the forum in which they cannot defend themselves. Discussion of banned members anywhere on the forums, discussion of members without General Discussion or Classifieds access in those areas or other such threads will be removed, possibly with an informal warning. This is often difficult to establish in a concrete fashion within our framework of rules, however if we remove threads for such reasons we will often provide an explanation.

This was the the discussion I hoped the other one was turning into but didn't make it. Abide by those rules on the subject and all will be well. They are there to protect the forum and will be enforced very strictly. If one of the staff feels a post crosses the line, it will likely be edited/deleted and the thread closed.

This isn't a threat, so please don't construe it as such. It's just a friendly reminder in hopes of keeping this one open. Thanks for your understanding.

-hokie

 

[mstersmith]

I love STEAM. I have an ASUS lap top I purchased for deployments. It is powerful enough to last me at least another generation of tech in the games department. Best part is I have steam down loaded and ready to go. Before I leave to go any were I steal it from my daughter load up my games and off I go. I also purchase box copies of games and then purchase digital versions of the x-pac without any problems via steam.

DRM will continue until society/consumers decide what is ethical and what is not. No one company or product is going to come up with a game changing tech that makes everyone happy.

 

[TheGreySpectre]

I don't have a problem with DRM in an of itself. I have a problem when DRM interferes with my ability to play a game. Steam has DRM, however Steam actually makes life easier on me. Steam actually makes it easier to install your games on multiple machines, I try to buy games on steam whenever possible now as I think they make my life much easier then keeping track of disks and keycodes and whatnot, not to mention the friends list is fantastic. I also like the fact that Gabe Newell has stated that they have a tested solution to deactivating the authentication servers in the event that something should happen to valve. I have not had any issues with steam and mods.

I do like the ability of emulators to play games at high resolution.I have my copy of mario 64 on the shelf, with my n64, but usually when I play it is on the PC as I love how it looks at 1600x1200.

Somethings I wish were less of a grey area legally. Not having to dig out the CD for a game is really nice. The same goes for handheld consoles, with standard catridges you can fit 1 game, however with an R4 type chip a person can hold hundreds of games without carrying around tons of cartridges, something very handy regardless of piracy.

I don't think collectors editions affect piracy, nor the new dlc that they release with games. If someone was going to pirate the game they are just going to pirate the dlc too. If someone is going to buy the collectors editoin then they probalby would have bough tthe original game.

 

[rainless]

Let me tell you a story:

In Russia (and China... and some other places) bands don't really make money off of albums: They make it off of touring and merchandise.

They make a LOT of money off touring and merchandise.

And the money they do make off of albums...

A typical CD is not the typical CD as you know it.

The typical CD in Russia and China is a collection of MP3s... Possibly every song that the particular artist has ever made along with rare/poster-sized photos, and lyrics, and interviews, and videos.

It's stunningly impressive actually. In terms of not only the content, but the packaging and the overall presentation.

It is truly a wonder to behold and it's worth whatever the hell they're charging for it.

I have bought MANY collector's editions. The best ones being collector's editions that I paid regular price for (Blazblue and UFC Undisputed 2010). I was personally offended when game companies jacked up the price of console games from $50 to $60 without giving you anything extra for it. (i.e.: without giving you more than "a game").

So whenever these companies give away anything... I'm all over it.

There was the DS Pokemon game that came with a pedometer that actually CREATED NEW POKEMON while you walked!

THAT was pretty damned cool. Then the two games I mentioned and... more and more often... it's becoming a trend.

Either you get something from preordering (and not a cheesy avatar or a STICKER either... but another PLAYABLE CHARACTER in a game... or some physical object) or you get a bunch of stuff in the box.

Thus you have the intangible game that you've paid to play on a disc... then an actual, physical object that you can actually touch and say "I paid this much money and THIS is what I got for it.)

Really the stuff that came with the GTAIV collector's edition was better than the game.

It came with a lockbox that I've used extensively, a keychain that's still on my keys now (a ROCKSTAR keychain mind you), and a bunch of other stuff (including a duffel bag and the soundtrack) that I haven't even gotten around to using yet.

THAT was worth whatever the hell I paid for it.

Not to mention the obvious appeal to developers: Giving away this cheap junk discourages piracy.

I think it's win-win. I think it's the way of the future.

My God of War: Chains of Olympus demo came with a Gold Necklace...

I think I got two copies of that game.

 

[KonaKona]

I was actually kind of disappointed when I got my N64 working again and played some rush 2049, it looked and ran way better on emulator then it did on the actual n64, sans audio.

 

[X0d1@k]

...I was going to go pre order New Vegas a few days ago and was very disappointed in the package. I decided to wait to get it maybe not even on release day. I am not a fan of pre order "here get this, pre order there get that". or even in game stuff because a mod a week later will get you all of it anyway.

Thats kind of how i feel too. LOVE Fallout 3, third playthrough, doing all the DLC now, and im thinking that this might be a single time where i am glad they are not releasing a game on a new engine. Hopefully this means that MANY necessary mods will work on New Vegas. I guess we will see.

Honestly, i dont use pirated games as much as i used to, and the ones i might have used fixed-exe cracks and what not, i never play. Is it hurting the industry? Sure. Maybe if they released MORE DEMOS people might be less apt to pirate games right?I dunno, just my opinion.

 

[ArcturusVi]

I really like what they're doing with collector's editions of games now.

300 page, full-color book, scale replica car with GT5
LittleBigPlanet2 with book/game ends, sackboy
As much as I dislike the CoD franchise, it has great bonuses.
SC2 collector's had a sturdy box, book and the original games with soundtracks.

Working at Best Buy gets me privvy to some cool bonuses for being at launch or near launch as well. MS gave away beanies and inflatable beam-swords for people at midnight. Small, but it's still a reward.

I think as long as they keep rewarding people buying it legitimately, people will keep buying. If they keep discouraging with ridiculous DRM is going to just exasperate the situation.

I still want a physical copy. Unless it's a pc game I have mild interest in, I want one.

 

[jaymz9350]

I think as long as they keep rewarding people buying it legitimately, people will keep buying. If they keep discouraging with ridiculous DRM is going to just exasperate the situation.

This right here. I don't mind things like Steam's DRM as it is unobtrusive and works (the majority of the time). I don't like things like the DRM in silent hunter III which renders the retail version unusable in Vista 64, yet pirates can play it fine.

 

[madhatter256]

Piracy will always be around. I miss the days of when Blizzard let you install multiple "Spawn" copies of SC1 or Diablo so that you and your friends can play on battle.net. But those days are gone as too many people abused the system.

I mainly buy my PC games from steam. Out of all the games I bought in the last two years, which is a total of 50+ (combo packs from steam ), I've bought about 3 from the retail store. Gothic 3 collector's edition, BF: BC2, STALKER: Call of Pripyat.

I don't own a PS3 or Xbox360 as they don't interest me yet. I do own the older consoles and tend to buy some of the good classic games.

 

[Aynjell]

I personally haven't bought a game at retail in forever. The thought of inserting a disc to play a game is just disgusting. Steam is awesome. For those of you who read this comment and wonder... behold:

http://www.ddgamer.com/worth.php?account=aynjell

Almost 1500$ worth of games on my steam profile. I spend money on games. I don't pirate them.

I just think we should be past the age of inserting discs and what not, and this whole new line of DRM they're throwing down our throats is just making the customer gag. Every single time I see the word securum the thought occurs:

"The pirates don't have to deal with securom, but the paying customers do. Where is the logic in including something that is beaten day 1, but the paying customers will legally have to deal with for as long as they choose to play your game?"

I keep track of piracy for this very reason, sometimes when a new game is released I'll look for it just to see if it's already beaten. Most games are. Some games are released prior to release date. Wait, what? Oh the pirates get it FIRST to boot? Yeah, as you can plainly see the paying customer gets the shaft in every way, and paying 50-60$ on release day for the pleasure. I wish guys running publishing companies would freaking see posts like this. They might get an idea of what real gamers want and how futile their efforts are and how they only affect paying customers like ME.

Keep in mind that the vast majority of the profit loss they some how conjure up is based on most likely stuff downloaded on various ... sites. Not from friends copying the disc. Sure, securom the disc. Make it freaking hard to copy. I don't care... just don't make my experience as the player any harder. I should theoretically be able to hire some guy to install my games and never ever have to see a disc in my life, but the companies don't want it that way.

EA is also hitting a nerve with that "you don't get the full game if you buy second hand" crap. I mean seriously, who are you fooling? Where do you get off basically telling me what I can't do with my physical medium?

Rainless said some truly sage words. Simply put, game makers need to give me, a paying customer more reason to buy the game than to pirate it, and quite frankly, there's only three ways to do it:

Less DRM, more game, and more swag. Not being sued is a thin thread that could snap at any second, and doing the right thing is just... blech. I could give a hell about doing the right thing if it means supporting companies who treat their customers like thieves. But oh well, for those who know better, again, there's steam. Steam makes it easy.

Keep in mind none of these are exclusive of one another. The first is mandatory... and steam mostly accomplishes this. I click on a game and freaking play it, I don't need to perform a voodoo ritual to play a game, I just need to open the executable. More game, seriously how much is securom costing these companies? Why can't they toss that money into more content? Oh, and swag. Yeah, I like getting stuff. My vault tec lunch box and bobble head are two of my favorite items. I remember the day I came home to that gift from my wonderful and loving girlfriend.

<3 (only way to describe it)

Here's a rundown. And maybe I'll stray into bad territory... but let's do this for kicks and grins:

Steam, most times I get a good price on stuff, if not on sale and amazingly discounted. Very rarely is steam more expensive than retail. All the benefits of a pirated copy are there on steam (no medium, fast downloads, no hassle when trying to play the game, etc), but on top of that, my difficulty in acquiring the game is easier. I download the game after paying it's asking price and boom I'm getting 2MBps down on whatever I chose to buy. I can't complain on that.

Pirates get for free what customers should be able to pay for, a fun, enjoyable and easy to use experience. Paying customers get what those who don't want to pay for the game should get... dongles, installation woes, slow downloads, and possibly just losing their right to play the game due to some wierd installation limits. <-- how's that for food for thought?


So yeah. Keep my comments in context (and refer to my steam profile whenever you think I went astray, I speak only my weird brand of sense here).

As a note, none of this is advocating piracy, it is wrong and illegal. Just musings on how unfair the world of pc gaming is.

 

[rainless]

Discs do suck, but I don't have a problem with installing from disc and never using it again. (Like Starcraft II).

I *do* have a problem with an ALL digital distribution system though... Especially one where your games would be kept off-site. So some BS hacker, or an opponent with a grudge spoofs your account and suddenly your $1500 worth of games go down the drain...

Yeah... I'd have a problem with that.

I don't like virtual property OR virtual money because you're only a computer glitch or server error away from getting screwed-over HARD.

 

[DBZ]

If you are afraid of account getting hacked or what not, why not download and backup as Steam allows you to do that?

 

[freakdiablo]

If you are afraid of account getting hacked or what not, why not download and backup as Steam allows you to do that?

I think what rainless is saying is that even if you do back up the games, if someone hacks your account and purposely gets you banned or changes your PW you are still screwed since you need a steam account with the games linked to it in order for them to work whether you have back ups or not.

Either way, telling rainless steam is good is like shaking your fist at god. No one is there, and if there is, he's not listening, and if he is, all you're doing is pissing him off.

 

[ArcturusVi]

rainless is right about Steam. Not just steam, but the whole idea of everything being kept in storage rather than a physical medium that can't be hacked, made obsolete, etc.

Steam is an exceptional service. I just do not want it to be the only way.

 

[petteyg359]

Steam is an exceptional service. I just do not want it to be the only way.

There's the another side to that idea. If there's lots of competition, then you have a bunch of incompatible services, all of which are trying to gain each other's market share. What happens to the users of the services that don't make it?